Why do you leave them hanging out there?

[Charles Kozierok]

This is a corollary to blaming rape victims for dressing to sexy. (note: I am not equating the two, simply saying that the reasoning is similar)

The reasoning may be similar in that both use the form of "it's partly her fault that I did X because she dressed in a way that encouraged it". But it stops pretty damned quickly -- whether women like it or not, men do have the right to look at them. And whether women want to admit it or not, many if not most of them dress that way because they want to be seen. I don't think any woman dresses with the intention of being raped.

All in all, the analogy IMO is about 1% valid.

 

[fskimospy]

The reasoning may be similar in that both use the form of "it's partly her fault that I did X because she dressed in a way that encouraged it". But it stops pretty damned quickly -- whether women like it or not, men do have the right to look at them. And whether women want to admit it or not, many if not most of them dress that way because they want to be seen. I don't think any woman dresses with the intention of being raped.

All in all, the analogy IMO is about 1% valid.

In my experience women don't flip out if someone so much as glances in their direction, it is the continuing, offensive ogling. We are all responsible for our actions, it is your fault if you are staring at someone, not theirs.

 

[Exterous]

I think its very interesting about how we have decided we need to pretend not to care. I also wonder if our quest to suppress this feeling makes it worse as we have a special 'oggle them while we can' instance instead of treating them as ordinary physical attributes. Attractive to be sure but usually nothing stare worthy as you see them frequently. I have noticed glancing (a friend in Austria termed it 'appreciating') to be more common in the countries I have visited but staring less so and neither seems to generate a fuss on either side. Does our outrage and very PC considerations enable a society where it is ok to be more easily outraged and demand more PC action? (Maybe even creating a PC enabling cycle?). My friend in Austria commented she could always tell when someone was from North America because 'you Americans skip appreciating and go straight to staring. Its like you are fighting yourself and when one side wins you stick with that side for far too long'. Not a comprehensive assessment to be sure but it does make me wonder.

I have also interacted with a number of sales and marketing companies that have - unofficially of course - admitted there are certain....standards when hiring their sales and marketing people (men and women). They don't consider it sexism or discrimination just finding the right person for the job. They argue its just one more way to engage with their mark...er...customer. If they are an old school good ole boy you don't send the young chatty hipster to talk to them. If its a young techie you don't send the technologically incompetent. Maybe a strong matriarchal figure would work well so they send her. If they get somewhere with good looking eye candy they won't hesitate to send someone who fits that bill

At first I was surprised as it seemed the role looks played in job assignment was a very (very) poorly kept secret. From my experience at the places I worked you could have expected at least a complaint within a day of this practice. But its been going on 8 years for one company and 3-5 for a couple others without an incident. This makes me wonder that if its more the secrecy around 'was looks a factor' and the cattiness of 'she just got the job because dresses like a slut' that enhances the effect. These companies seem to be doing ok with how open they are about their client rep selection process

To be honest I don't know for sure. This is just gathered from anecdotal experiences here and abroad and compared with my work experience in very conservative companies where an innocuous comment would almost always land you in the HR hot seat (A fate I have escaped but many have not) and I wonder if this might tie in to staring in society.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

We are all responsible for our actions, it is your fault if you are staring at someone, not theirs.

If someone behaves in a way that demands attention, they share the responsibility for getting it.

While there is no sexual analog for males in this, I did think of one parallel -- people who get extreme body modifications done. Sorry, but if you tattoo every square inch of your face, or you put saucers in your ears, or you have spikes sticking out of your cheeks (or whatever), people are going to be interested, and they are going to look. And really, isn't that one of the reasons they do that stuff?

The only group I genuinely feel has a right to want to left alone and not looked at are those with physical deformities. Not their fault, they didn't ask for it, and they have enough to handle without people staring at them.

I think its very interesting about how we have decided we need to pretend not to care. I also wonder if our quest to suppress this feeling makes it worse as we have a special 'oggle them while we can' instance instead of treating them as ordinary physical attributes.

There are cultures (and subcultures) where nudity is encouraged for this very reason.

 

[randomrogue]

Although there isn't a direct analogy available I can assure you that if you pull your dick out women will stare.

 

[Lithium381]

Although there isn't a direct analogy available I can assure you that if you pull your dick out women will stare.

men probably would too, depenging on the circumstance . .

 

[fskimospy]

If someone behaves in a way that demands attention, they share the responsibility for getting it.

While there is no sexual analog for males in this, I did think of one parallel -- people who get extreme body modifications done. Sorry, but if you tattoo every square inch of your face, or you put saucers in your ears, or you have spikes sticking out of your cheeks (or whatever), people are going to be interested, and they are going to look. And really, isn't that one of the reasons they do that stuff?

The only group I genuinely feel has a right to want to left alone and not looked at are those with physical deformities. Not their fault, they didn't ask for it, and they have enough to handle without people staring at them.



There are cultures (and subcultures) where nudity is encouraged for this very reason.

This is the exact reasoning that middle eastern countries use for burkas. Men apparently cannot control their behavior, so women must control it for them. I reject that, everyone can control their behavior, and their behavior is their responsibility alone.

We all know that exaggerated staring and catcalling is offensive. You can control it if you wish to; if you don't wish to that is each individuals business, but lets not act like we just can't control ourselves.

 

[waggy]

My attention to boobs is directly correlated to the reveal factor. Not only is is natural, it's appropriate. If a woman is dressed more modestly, I will be more polite because I respect her "intentions" or wishes or whatever you might call that... but if they are on display then I will act as though they are on display and not care too much about what she thinks. Live with the decisions you make.

/this

 

[randomrogue]

This is the exact reasoning that middle eastern countries use for burkas. Men apparently cannot control their behavior, so women must control it for them. I reject that, everyone can control their behavior, and their behavior is their responsibility alone.

We all know that exaggerated staring and catcalling is offensive. You can control it if you wish to; if you don't wish to that is each individuals business, but lets not act like we just can't control ourselves.

Yes if we work out our neck muscles and keep our necks in prime shape we might be able to keep it straight up with a series of pulleys and levers. Really though, when I date and women show up with dresses with cleavage all over the place I do my best to not look but it's inevitable. At that point I just compliment them.

If you're not instinctively looking then I'm kinda curious why.

The Burka is not used for that reason at all btw. It's used because the Koran demands modesty and some have interpreted this to the extreme. They believe that the face is the most tempting and sexual part of the body and they want it hidden.

 

[fskimospy]

Yes if we work out our neck muscles and keep our necks in prime shape we might be able to keep it straight up with a series of pulleys and levers. Really though, when I date and women show up with dresses with cleavage all over the place I do my best to not look but it's inevitable. At that point I just compliment them.

If you're not instinctively looking then I'm kinda curious why.

The Burka is not used for that reason at all btw. It's used because the Koran demands modesty and some have interpreted this to the extreme. They believe that the face is the most tempting and sexual part of the body and they want it hidden.

It is actually an explicitly used justification for the burka.

And yes, I have the ability not to stare at people if I don't want to.

People are responsible for their actions.

 

[randomrogue]

Just so we're clear, the Burka is the full body covering. So I'm not sure you're talking about it.

 

[SMOGZINN]

If someone behaves in a way that demands attention, they share the responsibility for getting it.

The problem with this is that women have little choice in the matter of how they are built. Practically anything they wear is going to 'stick 'em out there' because they ARE out there. White button up shirt? Yup, sexy. Black sweater? Yes. Tee-shirt? Oh, yea. Unless she is wearing a yellow and red muumuu guys are going to sexualize it. Really, try finding a picture of an attractive woman with large breasts that you think is NOT 'sticking 'em out there'.

While there is no sexual analog for males in this, I did think of one parallel -- people who get extreme body modifications done. Sorry, but if you tattoo every square inch of your face, or you put saucers in your ears, or you have spikes sticking out of your cheeks (or whatever), people are going to be interested, and they are going to look. And really, isn't that one of the reasons they do that stuff?

I know quite a few people you are into extreme body modification, and I've never heard of them complain about someone admiring their body art, in fact if you are polite they are more then happy to talk about their body art. What they do mind is when someone dismissed them as nothing but their body art, or treats them like a freak because they are different. Compare this to the second message in this thread where Soundmanred directly calls women that wears things he does not approve of a whore.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

The problem with this is that women have little choice in the matter of how they are built. Practically anything they wear is going to 'stick 'em out there' because they ARE out there. White button up shirt? Yup, sexy. Black sweater? Yes. Tee-shirt? Oh, yea. Unless she is wearing a yellow and red muumuu guys are going to sexualize it. Really, try finding a picture of an attractive woman with large breasts that you think is NOT 'sticking 'em out there'.

Aw, c'mon. I just watched the video again. The woman is wearing a shirt that ends closer to the navel than the neck, and her large breasts are half exposed. You don't go on national TV dressed like that because you want to emphasize your mental over physical attributes.

Will men still possibly stare even if a woman covers her breasts? Yes.

Will they be as likely to stare? No.

Will the woman have more valid basis for complaint if they are at least making an effort? I believe so.

I'm not asking anyone to wear a burka. There is a middle ground between "this is what I have and I'm not going to be ashamed of it" and "woo hoo! look at what I have!".

I know someone who had a kid who went to a school where they hired a new teacher. Young woman, who liked to dress with plunging necklines. She had no idea the reaction it was having among the kids -- even younger ones, and even girls. They had to literally ask her to dress more appropriately. And she did, and now nobody pays any attention to her breasts. (Well, that I know of, so at least it isn't so obvious.)

Compare this to the second message in this thread where Soundmanred directly calls women that wears things he does not approve of a whore.

Well, that I do not agree with.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Aw, c'mon. I just watched the video again.

Let us also remember that the video is of a late night comedy talk show. I expect the reaction was exaggerated for comic and promotional value.

Will men still possibly stare even if a woman covers her breasts? Yes.

Will they be as likely to stare? No.

It would be nice to have some women here to comment, but the ones I know would say that men that would stare at her with a plunging neckline will do so no matter the clothing (within reason of course), and those that would not stare at her when modestly dressed still won't do so to a offensive degree when she is wearing that plunging neckline. It is not the clothes, it is the man.

Well, that I do not agree with.

Have you ever been rebuked by a women for staring at her breasts? I would wager not. You are probably not one of the men that women are complaining about.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Let us also remember that the video is of a late night comedy talk show. I expect the reaction was exaggerated for comic and promotional value.

That is true.

It would be nice to have some women here to comment, but the ones I know would say that men that would stare at her with a plunging neckline will do so no matter the clothing (within reason of course), and those that would not stare at her when modestly dressed still won't do so to a offensive degree when she is wearing that plunging neckline. It is not the clothes, it is the man.

Well, I'm not a woman, but I know that a woman whose breasts are falling out of her shirt is far more likely to attract my attention than a woman wearing a sweater.

Have you ever been rebuked by a women for staring at her breasts? I would wager not. You are probably not one of the men that women are complaining about.

I refuse to answer this question on the grounds that I am not anonymous and my wife might find this one day.

No, I haven't -- because I feel like it would be rude to do so. But I think once or twice, especially when younger, I've found myself looking in the wrong place, and then looked upwards and felt a bit embarrassed.

Anyway, for me, the key is what you said: "within reason of course". Some of the clothes women wear today are not within reason, IMO. And some of the clothes put on young teens are downright shameful.

 

[randomrogue]

Unless someone has incredibly large breasts, and I mean incredibly, then clothes can easily cover them. There are different bras for different effects. Some push them together, some don't, some keep them as flat as possible for working out. I have several female friends with large breasts and although you know they're under there there is no risk of staring. However when we go out clubbing and they bring them out for show it's a whole different matter.

 

[Bowfinger]

The problem with this is that women have little choice in the matter of how they are built. Practically anything they wear is going to 'stick 'em out there' because they ARE out there. ...

That's not really accurate. There are all sorts of things women can do to either downplay or showcase their chests. Some bras flatten, others push up and out. Loose tops or jackets hide, tight tops enhance. Moderate necklines cover, plunging necklines scream "Look at me!" (or maybe, us). She was clearly wanting people to notice her breasts, which is fine, and I agree both she and Conan were likely playing this up for comedic effect. I also agree that staring is rude, even if the woman is putting on a show.

 

[fskimospy]

Just so we're clear, the Burka is the full body covering. So I'm not sure you're talking about it.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about.