Why do we resent having to pay for the mistakes others make?

[bfdd]

That's good that you feel that way and want to help others. But why do you and others like you feel the need to FORCE other people to also "donate" via gov't taxes? Why not let charities handle that?

All of my self-hate does not permit me to vote for letting the gov't handle it; I donate plenty to Goodwill and other charities on my own. Your brand of self-hate must be different because you want only gov't to do it.

He feels the need to have to FORCE us because he's a selfish asshole. That's why.

 

[glenn1]

Why do we resent having to pay for the mistakes others make?

I don't resent the mistakes of some poor slob. I very much resent the mistakes of the OP and others who support the "war on poverty" whose idiotic ideas have lead to almost every U.S. inner city looking like Mogadishu.

 

[LunarRay]

What does this mean? Are you invoking some moral principle here that people "should" obey laws or simply observing that, as a practical matter, most people will be faced with incentives that make compliance the path of least resistance?This sounds like a rationale from which you would argue for some sort of inherent legitimacy. I reject your premise that the law is created by the many, usually. Even if it were I wouldn't see that as a compelling argument for the moral superiority of majority-advocated force than any other gang of hooligans, be it a majority or a minority. People like to band together to make others do what they want them to do. (The control may be over members, non-members, or more commonly both.) This is human behavior. Sometimes certain such groups invent myths about the source of their authority which help them to maintain a stable grip on some type of power. These legitimacy myths are all jokes, but people raised to believe them from childhood cling to them like pearls of divine wisdom.

Of course, if divine wisdom were to exist, I suspect one of its likely delivery modes would be a joke...

The following may not directly respond to your post and its observations.

My thesis is developed from a belief that there is a supreme being [offered without proof - and permissible as a proposition] and that for the most part the the voting members of the USA Conservative party and especially the far Right are of the mindset that classifies them as Christian. I would include anyone else who is of the Christian faith and logically omit folks of any political party who are not inclined to follow the gist of what Jesus taught.

I'd title my thesis: Hypocrisy

Moonbeam titled his OP using 'resent' and 'mistakes made by others'. I personally find it hard to accept Christians would resent providing compassion toward folks who make mistakes that result in a drain on the pocket book of the people.

I would include here my take on the word I chose to use that you question in your opening... Obliged as I used it would include the following: To Constrain by Physical, Moral, Legal or perhaps even an Exigent circumstance. When a law is enacted we all are constrained to obey it regardless of our opposition to it. IF we are Christian and the law is to do with providing a living income to folks whose mistake(s) place them in jeopardy we should willingly and with joy in our hearts support it. But, we don't! The Conservative Party seems hell bent on eliminating or reducing below any reasonable level the income they should seek to maintain.

I would include here my opinion that laws are developed under the guise of being in the best interest of the Nation in general and that we have given our consent to the law under the existing methodology. The law becomes OUR law because we are the Government at the end of the day... so to speak.

In essence; I find the rhetoric and attempts to enact law or blocking attempts to enact law by the Conservative Party to be Hypocritical at best.

I have no problem with the folks whose belief does not allow them to follow the teachings of Jesus but would wonder why Compassion does not extend beyond their home threshold.
It is my opinion that each enjoys the blessings of this nation in direct correlation to their Net Worth and potential to increase that. And, that the price to pay for that is or ought to be directly related. IF we seek to reduce the Budget Deficit then embark on a path to job growth and taxation adjustments to the folks who can afford it but show compassion toward those who cannot... I can't imagine folks willfully wishing to become beggars or worse who are of a sound mind... Blessed are the merciful for they shall receive mercy.... Always a carrot, it seems

 

[LunarRay]

Christians can act as Christians without government compulsion. Atheists can act as atheists. All I want is for the land of the free to remain the land of the free rather than the land where we are compelled to do whatever the masses see fit to force us to do at the point of a gun. That's all.

I don't have a problem at all with your position unless you profess to be a Christian. IF you do then you/we are advised to act accordingly given this place is but a step toward eternity.
I don't seek to change any one's position that is founded in their belief system... be true to oneself.

I suppose that even religion might be a human creation to establish control on folks. I don't know, but do know that faith is belief without proof according to the scientific method and it, Christianity, is for me the basis of my existence and anyone who claims to be Christian has as one of their pillars the notion of Compassion... As I said elsewhere, Compassion is a part of Humanism.... ergo, a concept that ought to be employed not just by the Christian. Well... to the extent one is able to be Compassionate.

So... Ron Paul and his band have as much right to want what they want as the Christian Conservative or the Liberal Atheist... I simply want them to act accordingly.

 

[CycloWizard]

I don't have a problem at all with your position unless you profess to be a Christian. IF you do then you/we are advised to act accordingly given this place is but a step toward eternity.
I don't seek to change any one's position that is founded in their belief system... be true to oneself.

I suppose that even religion might be a human creation to establish control on folks. I don't know, but do know that faith is belief without proof according to the scientific method and it, Christianity, is for me the basis of my existence and anyone who claims to be Christian has as one of their pillars the notion of Compassion... As I said elsewhere, Compassion is a part of Humanism.... ergo, a concept that ought to be employed not just by the Christian. Well... to the extent one is able to be Compassionate.

So... Ron Paul and his band have as much right to want what they want as the Christian Conservative or the Liberal Atheist... I simply want them to act accordingly.

How can you formulate compassion into a law? For some people, I can show compassion by buying them a drink. For others (e.g. alcoholics), by not buying them a drink. The law necessarily lumps all groups together treating every person as the same. A real compassionate response depends heavily on context and the person(s) we're dealing with. Jesus didn't tell his followers to start a government to force everyone to be compassionate - he simply told them to be compassionate of their own volition. It's a nonsense that I should (let alone must, as you imply) try to formulate each of my beliefs into law simply because I believe in a certain course of action.

 

[LunarRay]

How can you formulate compassion into a law? For some people, I can show compassion by buying them a drink. For others (e.g. alcoholics), by not buying them a drink. The law necessarily lumps all groups together treating every person as the same. A real compassionate response depends heavily on context and the person(s) we're dealing with. Jesus didn't tell his followers to start a government to force everyone to be compassionate - he simply told them to be compassionate of their own volition. It's a nonsense that I should (let alone must, as you imply) try to formulate each of my beliefs into law simply because I believe in a certain course of action.

Perhaps I can explain my point mo better...

I'm suggesting that the Conservative Right should not adopt rhetoric or actions that would not be seen as compassionate as it applies to the affected folks... No one should that calls themselves Christian.

What you do as an individual toward others is between you and your belief... Even how you vote. But, as an organized group of Christians able to affect the lives of other citizens the actions of these Christian Politicians ought to follow their proclaimed orientation.

We can develop law that is compassionate and it is simply nothing more than insuring that our citizens have the means to exist reasonably in all areas. In tough times like now we should realize we will incur debt just like the debt we ought to incur to create jobs and we should extract from the better able to afford it a larger amount to help offset...


Ideally, our mindset ought to be set to the norm economically and not the peak or valley. What we should consider is what I call the Potential Dilemma... Where we can estimate revenue based on certain criteria and cost/expense flowing from that estimate... IOW, the roll of government is to insure max employment which provides max revenue which then creates the bench mark taxation rate and let the overs and unders be just that. If we adopted that philosophy and developed law that insures all folks enjoy basic needs... we'd be Compassionate, me thinks

 

[Svnla]

I don't resent the mistakes of some poor slob. I very much resent the mistakes of the OP and others who support the "war on poverty" whose idiotic ideas have lead to almost every U.S. inner city looking like Mogadishu.

This.

Like the old saying (paraphrasing), you can lead those horses to the water but can't make them drink the water.

Look at the legal immigrants vs. the minorities in inner cities. After a few years, look who would be far ahead and who would stuck in the same place or worse.

 

[bfdd]

lol @ so much of the word "ideally" being use by the authoritarians.

 

[Moonbeam]

Christians can act as Christians without government compulsion. Atheists can act as atheists. All I want is for the land of the free to remain the land of the free rather than the land where we are compelled to do whatever the masses see fit to force us to do at the point of a gun. That's all.

You don't want deviants thrown in the sea?

 

[LunarRay]

You don't want deviants thrown in the sea?

He wants to let each function as they do.... therefore, we can reestablish the inquisition and our fanatical friends might could use the sea for purification I suppose.

 

[Moonbeam]

What does this mean? Are you invoking some moral principle here that people "should" obey laws or simply observing that, as a practical matter, most people will be faced with incentives that make compliance the path of least resistance?This sounds like a rationale from which you would argue for some sort of inherent legitimacy. I reject your premise that the law is created by the many, usually. Even if it were I wouldn't see that as a compelling argument for the moral superiority of majority-advocated force than any other gang of hooligans, be it a majority or a minority. People like to band together to make others do what they want them to do. (The control may be over members, non-members, or more commonly both.) This is human behavior. Sometimes certain such groups invent myths about the source of their authority which help them to maintain a stable grip on some type of power. These legitimacy myths are all jokes, but people raised to believe them from childhood cling to them like pearls of divine wisdom.

Of course, if divine wisdom were to exist, I suspect one of its likely delivery modes would be a joke...

Have you seen the film Red Beard. It suggests that divine wisdom sometimes arrives in the form of a broken neck.

But I am curious as to where your thinking leads you from the joke phase? Where, if there is no place to stand, are you? If the world sleeps in their dream of legitimacy, what do you do awake? Have you ever read the Neverending Story of the Rock Monsters complaint at the failure of his powerful hands to save his child from the Nothing? How about the Zen master who said at the death of his son, this little dew drop world, it may be only a dew drop, and yet and yet. How do you direct the compassion given to you by the life within?

I believe that all the phony authorities that folk create of take and twist are all just the adumbration of something deeper, a sense of loss over something gone but unconsciously remembered, a deep longing we don't want to feel, a great hurt we will not remember. And I believe that any who finds his own heart via any of those false authorities, has found the true religion. They are all real and all false depending on what they make you feel and what actions they oblige.

So what I find wrong with CW's point of view is his reluctance to trust, that nobody but he is capable of vision, that you can say give a drink to help one person but not give one to a drunk. I believe that a culture that demonstrated concern for others creates a culture where folk learn concern. But I am confident that way and optimistic, as a result of discovering an enormous joke, that what folk really have to give is infinite.

 

[CycloWizard]

You don't want deviants thrown in the sea?

If someone is driving 40 mph through a throng of people while texting and can't be bothered to look around even then, I doubt they'll notice being catapulted into the sea.

 

[CycloWizard]

Have you seen the film Red Beard. It suggests that divine wisdom sometimes arrives in the form of a broken neck.

But I am curious as to where your thinking leads you from the joke phase? Where, if there is no place to stand, are you? If the world sleeps in their dream of legitimacy, what do you do awake? Have you ever read the Neverending Story of the Rock Monsters complaint at the failure of his powerful hands to save his child from the Nothing? How about the Zen master who said at the death of his son, this little dew drop world, it may be only a dew drop, and yet and yet. How do you direct the compassion given to you by the life within?

I believe that all the phony authorities that folk create of take and twist are all just the adumbration of something deeper, a sense of loss over something gone but unconsciously remembered, a deep longing we don't want to feel, a great hurt we will not remember. And I believe that any who finds his own heart via any of those false authorities, has found the true religion. They are all real and all false depending on what they make you feel and what actions they oblige.

So what I find wrong with CW's point of view is his reluctance to trust, that nobody but he is capable of vision, that you can say give a drink to help one person but not give one to a drunk. I believe that a culture that demonstrated concern for others creates a culture where folk learn concern. But I am confident that way and optimistic, as a result of discovering an enormous joke, that what folk really have to give is infinite.

On the contrary, I think everyone is capable of vision. I want to enable them to make use of that vision. You are the one wanting desperately to imprint your vision on society. You fail to see that this society had much more concern for its own members long before the government decided it would take care of that. Now people rely on the government to do it and they simply shuffle past the person in need. This is the reality of your vision - we are living it now.

 

[TheSlamma]

A mistake I can forgive.. but is it still called a mistake though when it keeps happening over and over and over and over and over and over again and again and again and again?

People going from bubble to bubble trying to get rich or going right back into their addictions or never learning from the first bankruptcy or forclosure or 2 or 3 or 4 kids when they could never afford the first mistake.

The right and wrong of this stuff has been taught to us for many millennia also but yet still a large portion of the population can't stop living like grasshoppers and us ants pick up the tab.

Oh well just rants from an indy.

 

[Moonbeam]

He wants to let each function as they do.... therefore, we can reestablish the inquisition and our fanatical friends might could use the sea for purification I suppose.

I still maintain that at heart he's a good person who hasn't yet realized a few things, like, for example, who else would Jesus have been asking God 'to forgive because they know not what they do' but Zombies? Seems he devoted his whole life and last breath to them.

I'm sort of convinced that the only sea about that anybody was drowning in was the one they each had cast themselves in and from which He was trying to extract them, with very little thanks.

 

[Moonbeam]

A mistake I can forgive.. but is it still called a mistake though when it keeps happening over and over and over and over and over and over again and again and again and again?

People going from bubble to bubble trying to get rich or going right back into their addictions or never learning from the first bankruptcy or forclosure or 2 or 3 or 4 kids when they could never afford the first mistake.

The right and wrong of this stuff has been taught to us for many millennia also but yet still a large portion of the population can't stop living like grasshoppers and us ants pick up the tab.

Oh well just rants from an indy.

I think this is good for you. It gets out what you feel. That does two good thinks I think. First it feels good like taking a shit and second it shows you in words what is going on in you. This discretization of the amorphous, feelings into words, is a kind of self knowing. As you become aware of what you feel in your intellect, you then have the possibility for some real thought. Why do I feel this way. Is it right or wrong. Did I learn to feel this way by absorption etc etc etc. Puking is the first natural step in getting rid of food poisoning.

 

[LunarRay]

I still maintain that at heart he's a good person who hasn't yet realized a few things, like, for example, who else would Jesus have been asking God 'to forgive because they know not what they do' but Zombies? Seems he devoted his whole life and last breath to them.

I'm sort of convinced that the only sea about that anybody was drowning in was the one they each had cast themselves in and from which He was trying to extract them, with very little thanks.

' ... Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'

While not directly responsive it is obliquely so, I think.

More than anything else Jesus loathed the hypocrit...

'He reserved his greatest contempt for the Pharisees and High priests, who preached chastity, morality, and humility, but who in fact were liars who cared only for their own well being and desires instead of the poor, the widows, the children, and the faithful.' [Sort of a quote - can't recall who wrote this but it is the essence of his, Jesus', quoted passages]

I always think of 'the sea' one is tossed in or falls in relates to the condition of their 'Heart'...

It is why, I suppose, the Conservative Right Wing Christian Zombies wear scuba gear... to continue to propound their agenda knowingly about to drown otherwise.

 

[bfdd]

On the contrary, I think everyone is capable of vision. I want to enable them to make use of that vision. You are the one wanting desperately to imprint your vision on society. You fail to see that this society had much more concern for its own members long before the government decided it would take care of that. Now people rely on the government to do it and they simply shuffle past the person in need. This is the reality of your vision - we are living it now.

Truth

 

[Icepick]

Originally Posted by CycloWizard
How can you formulate compassion into a law? For some people, I can show compassion by buying them a drink. For others (e.g. alcoholics), by not buying them a drink. The law necessarily lumps all groups together treating every person as the same. A real compassionate response depends heavily on context and the person(s) we're dealing with. Jesus didn't tell his followers to start a government to force everyone to be compassionate - he simply told them to be compassionate of their own volition. It's a nonsense that I should (let alone must, as you imply) try to formulate each of my beliefs into law simply because I believe in a certain course of action.

Perhaps I can explain my point mo better...

I'm suggesting that the Conservative Right should not adopt rhetoric or actions that would not be seen as compassionate as it applies to the affected folks... No one should that calls themselves Christian.

What you do as an individual toward others is between you and your belief... Even how you vote. But, as an organized group of Christians able to affect the lives of other citizens the actions of these Christian Politicians ought to follow their proclaimed orientation.

We can develop law that is compassionate and it is simply nothing more than insuring that our citizens have the means to exist reasonably in all areas. In tough times like now we should realize we will incur debt just like the debt we ought to incur to create jobs and we should extract from the better able to afford it a larger amount to help offset...


Ideally, our mindset ought to be set to the norm economically and not the peak or valley. What we should consider is what I call the Potential Dilemma... Where we can estimate revenue based on certain criteria and cost/expense flowing from that estimate... IOW, the roll of government is to insure max employment which provides max revenue which then creates the bench mark taxation rate and let the overs and unders be just that. If we adopted that philosophy and developed law that insures all folks enjoy basic needs... we'd be Compassionate, me thinks

LunarRay: Well said.

Cyclowizard: We need to have a means of predicting the level of revenue to be raised in order to maintain a corresponding spending policy. This is better accomplished by having a documented taxation strategy than relying on voluntary contributions. Taxation offers a better opportunity for a stable budget while ensuring that those who are in danger of falling into poverty or who are suffering in poverty are assisted.

 

[bfdd]

LunarRay: Well said.

Cyclowizard: We need to have a means of predicting the level of revenue to be raised in order to maintain a corresponding spending policy. This is better accomplished by having a documented taxation strategy than relying on voluntary contributions. Taxation offers a better opportunity for a stable budget while ensuring that those who are in danger of falling into poverty or who are suffering in poverty are assisted.

No it doesn't, "ideally" it does, but reality is different. That's why I'm laughing so hard at you morons who keep throwing out the word "ideally" fucking idealists living with their head in the clouds. morons the lot of you.

 

[LunarRay]

No it doesn't, "ideally" it does, but reality is different. That's why I'm laughing so hard at you morons who keep throwing out the word "ideally" fucking idealists living with their head in the clouds. morons the lot of you.

Ideally, you could provide some basis for your comments. But, reality is all we have to read... and in your case reality is zip, zilch, zero.

I will submit for your edification the reality of the word 'Ideal'. Ideal is a standard of perfection. It is what we ought to be moving toward in all aspects of our reality... Reality can be Ideal or it may fall short of it... Reality may even require a change from what we thought was ideal to what our reality indicates is ideal.

In any event, I'm sure you have more to offer than to provide evidence that you don't.

 

[Moonbeam]

Ideally, you could provide some basis for your comments. But, reality is all we have to read... and in your case reality is zip, zilch, zero.

I will submit for your edification the reality of the word 'Ideal'. Ideal is a standard of perfection. It is what we ought to be moving toward in all aspects of our reality... Reality can be Ideal or it may fall short of it... Reality may even require a change from what we thought was ideal to what our reality indicates is ideal.

In any event, I'm sure you have more to offer than to provide evidence that you don't.

He's filled with truthiness and his truthiness is his ideal. All he knows is that if your ideal isn't his ideal then you are less than he as are your ideals. He has never had to struggle to determine what might be ideal because he simply adopted the ideals of others. How do you tell a shallow mind it is shallow. You can't but you can always evoke a demonstration.

 

[LunarRay]

He's filled with truthiness and his truthiness is his ideal. All he knows is that if your ideal isn't his ideal then you are less than he as are your ideals. He has never had to struggle to determine what might be ideal because he simply adopted the ideals of others. How do you tell a shallow mind it is shallow. You can't but you can always evoke a demonstration.

The reason for our Constitution is contain in its preamble. Among the elements is to promote the General Welfare of the population.

What does this mean? I suspect it means different things to different folks...
Ideally, it means that stuff like Health Care, Social Security and similar programs are provided to all people and that Congress has the power to see to it.

There should be no resenting involved with funding those kind of programs. It should be seen as being who we are as a Society... A caring society filled with love and compassion for our people.

 

[Moonbeam]

The reason for our Constitution is contain in its preamble. Among the elements is to promote the General Welfare of the population.

What does this mean? I suspect it means different things to different folks...
Ideally, it means that stuff like Health Care, Social Security and similar programs are provided to all people and that Congress has the power to see to it.

There should be no resenting involved with funding those kind of programs. It should be seen as being who we are as a Society... A caring society filled with love and compassion for our people.

But as we know that for some of us, some of our people look to be worthless and thus don't deserve anything. They do not appreciate that they are not supposed to judge who is worthless and who is not because to judge others as worthless is what real worthlessness is all about.

Clearly we need to help those who can stand back up if it's given and find ways help those who want to take and take. And the answer, as I have said again and again is that you give in return for something, no matter how small. A gift that is earned is not a gift and is value by what it cost. Food for effort feeds the heart and the soul. Even if you give to the government and it gives to the poor, you will benefit emotionally. This is why the government owes it to the people to act as responsibly as it can. They need to mean test and they need to explain what goods we create for our fellow man so we can all have a tangible sense that what we give makes a difference. That's how I see it anyway.

Some liberals fall down on that last part because they don't know that for free is useless. They can just pour money down a rat hole and let the right complain. They need to give for return and demonstrate benefit if we are going to do thing large scale that only government can. Give that which cultivates capacity, no giving for free, demonstrate progress and refine the effort. In this way maybe those who whine about forced donations will whine less. I think its really results that everybody wants.

 

[LunarRay]

But as we know that for some of us, some of our people look to be worthless and thus don't deserve anything. They do not appreciate that they are not supposed to judge who is worthless and who is not because to judge others as worthless is what real worthlessness is all about.

Clearly we need to help those who can stand back up if it's given and find ways help those who want to take and take. And the answer, as I have said again and again is that you give in return for something, no matter how small. A gift that is earned is not a gift and is value by what it cost. Food for effort feeds the heart and the soul. Even if you give to the government and it gives to the poor, you will benefit emotionally. This is why the government owes it to the people to act as responsibly as it can. They need to mean test and they need to explain what goods we create for our fellow man so we can all have a tangible sense that what we give makes a difference. That's how I see it anyway.

Some liberals fall down on that last part because they don't know that for free is useless. They can just pour money down a rat hole and let the right complain. They need to give for return and demonstrate benefit if we are going to do thing large scale that only government can. Give that which cultivates capacity, no giving for free, demonstrate progress and refine the effort. In this way maybe those who whine about forced donations will whine less. I think its really results that everybody wants.

The first step is jobs. Get the folks who can work working. Programs to train or retrain and wages that meet the basic human needs in this country...

As I see it, Compassion means caring about the people and helping them help themselves until they no longer need help.