Why do we make the 'minority' distinction?

[wahdangun]

Instead of minorities should we go back to 'Colored'?

haha, what ironic and satire piece of history, now antifa/BLM/BAMN want to go like that again with their ridiculous "safe space", and they even want to be called "POC" hahahah

MLK must be rolling in his grave right now

 

[bradly1101]

Instead of minorities should we go back to 'Colored'?

I know you're saying, "If we can't use the modern terms to identify race, should we go back to these?"

My question is, why do we need race identifiers at all?

Over my life I have heard things like, "There was a black guy at the store who..." or "This really hot Asian chick..." Why isn't it just a guy or just a chick?

I used to know a guy who always called out Mexicans for not doing something the way he would have. He'd say "Mexicans!" One time he was in my car, and I didn't see a group of men trying to cross a busy street at an intersection that didn't have a light or crosswalk (which is legal here in Calif.; drivers must stop), and I said, "Those guys are going to get run over, no one's stopping, I should have stopped." He looked back to see them and said, "Mexicans!" I said to this California-educated guy, "They (the group crossing) know the law better than you do." We went back and forth, so I proposed a bet to see who was correct about the law. He didn't take it.

[edit: Oh, and of course he didn't know if they were actually Mexicans, just Latino, making his racism doubly disgusting (IMO).]

And I know that other races sometimes call out whites.

My point again is why do we make the distinction? I know law enforcement has to so they can identify someone ("A male caucasian robbed..."), but why do the rest of us? What purpose (other than division) does it serve?

 

[WHAMPOM]

Instead of minorities should we go back to 'Colored'?

Forgot the "NO DOGS, NO BLACKS, NO IRISH?

 

[bradly1101]

MLK and Maya Anjelou reminded us that it's the content of our character that matters, not skin color. If we are to hold to those ideals, shouldn't we overlook race? [I know some of you point out that MLK was a womanizer and Ms. Anjelou was an ex-prostitute, as if that precludes them from all wisdom or acceptance]

 

[ivwshane]

I know you're saying, "If we can't use the modern terms to identify race, should we go back to these?"

My question is, why do we need race identifiers at all?

Over my life I have heard things like, "There was a black guy at the store who..." or "This really hot Asian chick..." Why isn't it just a guy or just a chick?

I used to know a guy who always called out Mexicans for not doing something the way he would have. He'd say "Mexicans!" One time he was in my car, and I didn't see a group of men trying to cross a busy street at an intersection that didn't have a light or crosswalk (which is legal here in Calif.; drivers must stop), and I said, "Those guys are going to get run over, no one's stopping, I should have stopped." He looked back to see them and said, "Mexicans!" I said to this California-educated guy, "They (the group crossing) know the law better than you do." We went back and forth, so I proposed a bet to see who was correct about the law. He didn't take it.

[edit: Oh, and of course he didn't know if they were actually Mexicans, just Latino, making his racism doubly disgusting (IMO).]

And I know that other races sometimes call out whites.

My point again is why do we make the distinction? I know law enforcement has to so they can identify someone ("A male caucasian robbed..."), but why do the rest of us? What purpose (other than division) does it serve?

In your examples we make those distinctions to quickly describe people. If someone said to you, "I saw this sweet car the other day", you would be forced to ask, "what kind of car was it?". But if that same person said, "I saw this sweet mustang the other day", you immediately have an idea of what they are taking about.

In summary, we use qualifiers to be more efficient with our communication. I don't see a problem with that type of use.

 

[bradly1101]

In your examples we make those distinctions to quickly describe people. If someone said to you, "I saw this sweet car the other day", you would be forced to ask, "what kind of car was it?". But if that same person said, "I saw this sweet mustang the other day", you immediately have an idea of what they are taking about.

In summary, we use qualifiers to be more efficient with our communication. I don't see a problem with that type of use.

Yes, calling out a car name is innocuous, but how does that apply to race? Isn't calling out race usually used to provide extra insult? Isn't "guy" enough of a descriptor?

 

[96Firebird]

Isn't calling out race usually used to provide extra insult? Isn't "guy" enough of a descriptor?

It only adds insult if you think it does. Stop being racist and there isn't a problem...

 

[bradly1101]

It only adds insult if you think it does. Stop being racist and there isn't a problem...

I didn't say "adds insult," I said "used to supply extra insult."
Edit: Sometimes race is called out in a compliment. It still divides.

 

[ivwshane]

v

Yes, calling out a car name is innocuous, but how does that apply to race? Isn't calling out race usually used to provide extra insult? Isn't "guy" enough of a descriptor?

I explained it to you already. If I tell you I saw I cute black chick, you have a general idea about the looks of the girl. If I saw a cute Latina girl, you would have an idea about what the girl looks like. If I said I saw a cute Georgia girl, would you know what I'm talking about? You might think of a southern bell but I could be speaking of Georgia, the post soviet state... Not really helpful is it.

Now if I were to say that minorities are taking our jobs... Well that's not really helpful as it doesn't describe anyone or any particular group of people except for non white people (which is stupid because white people can be minorities too).

So on one hand we use such descriptors as short hand and on another people use some descriptors because they are ignorant.

 

[wahdangun]

MLK and Maya Anjelou reminded us that it's the content of our character that matters, not skin color. If we are to hold to those ideals, shouldn't we overlook race? [I know some of you point out that MLK was a womanizer and Ms. Anjelou was an ex-prostitute, as if that precludes them from all wisdom or acceptance]

No, I don't think the point of MLK is to ban free speech, saying another person with their race is not racist it's facts, it's only insult if you want to make it to be, you just have to grow thick skin.

The real point of MLK is to eliminate segregation, equality and violence between race, that's why MLK is so different than other movement like black panther or KKK, using brain not emotions.

 

[bradly1101]

v

I explained it to you already. If I tell you I saw I cute black chick, you have a general idea about the looks of the girl. If I saw a cute Latina girl, you would have an idea about what the girl looks like. If I said I saw a cute Georgia girl, would you know what I'm talking about? You might think of a southern bell but I could be speaking of Georgia, the post soviet state... Not really helpful is it.

Now if I were to say that minorities are taking our jobs... Well that's not really helpful as it doesn't describe anyone or any particular group of people except for non white people (which is stupid because white people can be minorities too).

So on one hand we use such descriptors as short hand and on another people use some descriptors because they are ignorant.

Yes, I understand your point, and I should have been more clear in mine. When I say "extra insult," I'm referring to a typical sentence I've heard (even in stand-up comedy) like, "There was this [insert race here] guy at the store who didn't have a clue..."

I understand that using race in your examples gives the other person more information, but the whole point of this thread is why do we need that information? What do people do with it other than to see difference? My suggestion in this thread is that even that is harmful. I know to some I'm being overly PC, but as I said, PC comes from empathy. Does the girl want to be seen as different? Maybe some do.

 

[sandorski]

Math

 

[bradly1101]

IMO until we can see people as just people, we have no chance of solving "the race problems in America."

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Racism derives from a tribal and class-conflict dynamic in a society more or less drawn to a sense of national identity.

Many who are motivated subtly by racism don't admit it. There's the old cliché about "I have friends who are black."

There is a dimension of racial cowardice, in which someone of uncertain class standing worries about his or her relationships with blacks -- in the workplace, in school, or in a common neighborhood if such exists. What will all those other people of 'my race' say?

A lack of dispersion, lack of contact, lack of familiarity easily creates a racial dynamic and generates an "us versus them" attitude -- even unspoken -- which colors everything else.

In places frequented by many races in contact with each other, the cowardice can disappear, but requires some sort of compensating regulation -- some sort of base "affirmative action" that assures there are fewer barriers. This becomes a catalyst, and may not adversely affect selection of people for common-sense ability to perform tasks of economic value. But there are always mistakes as well as misperceptions.

But it explains red-state counties in either red or blue states, versus urban and suburban voting precincts. In the election of 2008, you could see by looking at West Virginia as something of a swing state, it went entirely red. The black population within the state was something like 4% of the total.

So there we were in 2016, with red states providing 38% of GDP and the blue and purples providing 62%. Yet federal spending had favored red states getting more than 100% return in federal spending on their federal tax contribution, while blue states mostly pay out more than they take in of federal spending.

Racism is only one aspect of the cultural divide recently spotlighted in the serious media comment forums.

 

[glenn1]

Yes, I understand your point, and I should have been more clear in mine. When I say "extra insult," I'm referring to a typical sentence I've heard (even in stand-up comedy) like, "There was this [insert race here] guy at the store who didn't have a clue..."

I understand that using race in your examples gives the other person more information, but the whole point of this thread is why do we need that information? What do people do with it other than to see difference? My suggestion in this thread is that even that is harmful. I know to some I'm being overly PC, but as I said, PC comes from empathy. Does the girl want to be seen as different? Maybe some do.

If you don't understand that intent matters then you'll never understand why we might need that information. A doctor asking "what's their race" is important because some diseases aren't equally distributed in the population. A police officer responding to a request for help from someone in distress asking "what's their race" before they would go help would rightly get a WTF. And you're correct, sometimes using race as a descriptor is of questionable value but that's different than being used in bad faith.

 

[bradly1101]

Racism derives from a tribal and class-conflict dynamic in a society more or less drawn to a sense of national identity.

I agree, and our national identity has always included different groups, racially divided or not, including English vs. Irish vs. Italians vs. Jews. We don't make those distinctions anymore (because they're all "white?"). "Us vs. them" has always existed here, louder at different times, but many rose above, and many, if not all, immigrants hoped their difference(s) wouldn't matter. IMO the fact that it matters to anyone is problematic. Here in a very blue state (CA) in a very blue area (the coast) racially charged statements/actions occur, and yes, such are humans.

A lack of dispersion, lack of contact, lack of familiarity easily creates a racial dynamic and generates an "us versus them" attitude -- even unspoken -- which colors everything else.

Another racially charged incident I've witnessed in my very progressive area occurred at Trader Joe's of all places. It's in a mostly white area, and two black men were collecting donations outside the entrance (it's a charity I've volunteered for - churches around here feed the homeless). A white woman who appeared very angry said in a loud, annoyed tone, "Who are you collecting for?" [edit: despite their sign] They answered. She then said, "Do you have documentation?" They produced it. Without reading it she stormed off into the store. I wanted to ask her, "If they were white kids collecting for a high school trip, would you have acted that way?" Of course I didn't; I learned a long time ago what happens when you engage people like that, and I knew the answer anyway.

In places frequented by many races in contact with each other, the cowardice can disappear, but requires some sort of compensating regulation -- some sort of base "affirmative action" that assures there are fewer barriers.

Which can occur simply in our minds.

Racism is only one aspect of the cultural divide recently spotlighted in the serious media comment forums.

Indeed.

 

[bradly1101]

If you don't understand that intent matters then you'll never understand why we might need that information. A doctor asking "what's their race" is important because some diseases aren't equally distributed in the population. A police officer responding to a request for help from someone in distress asking "what's their race" before they would go help would rightly get a WTF. And you're correct, sometimes using race as a descriptor is of questionable value but that's different than being used in bad faith.

Yes, above I mentioned that police need an identifier, but in cases of casual conversation I don't see the value, in fact I think it hurts the cause of seeing people as equals whether intended that way or not.

 

[glenn1]

Yes, above I mentioned that police need an identifier, but in cases of casual conversation I don't see the value, in fact I think it hurts the cause of seeing people as equals whether intended that way or not.

So when I’m out with family in LA’s K-town people should try to identify me as the guy in the blue shirt, no the other guy, no not him either that’s turquoise not blue” instead of “look for the white guy” since I might the only one in the store? Seems very inefficient.

 

[wahdangun]

Yes, above I mentioned that police need an identifier, but in cases of casual conversation I don't see the value, in fact I think it hurts the cause of seeing people as equals whether intended that way or not.

i think you need to chill out, in my country its ok to identify some one with their race(because our country is melting pot over several race, and ethnic), so the racial tension is quite low in here, and some times its can be a problem if we over thinking things, the insult is just all in your head.

but my country have some really nasty problem with religion now, somehow every year the islam extremist grow and without freedom of speech in our constitution our government passed a "hate speech" law because some religious people feel offended, so now in my country we can't express our speech without fearing our government will chase us and put us in jail, just hoping we don't end up have another dictator again.

 

[bradly1101]

i think you need to chill out, in my country its ok to identify some one with their race(because our country is melting pot over several race, and ethnic), so the racial tension is quite low in here, and some times its can be a problem if we over thinking things, the insult is just all in your head.

but my country have some really nasty problem with religion now, somehow every year the islam extremist grow and without freedom of speech in our constitution our government passed a "hate speech" law because some religious people feel offended, so now in my country we can't express our speech without fearing our government will chase us and put us in jail, just hoping we don't end up have another dictator again.

All my best.

 

[bradly1101]

I just remembered another racially charged occurrence in my life. I had surgery before the OJ verdict. The hospital provided a home-care nurse for me. She happened to be black. My TV was on to the trial as the jury came back. I could see her interest. I asked her if she thought OJ did it, she said, "Of course!" We continued watching, and the jury announced the not guilty verdict. She jumped in the air and said, "Yes!" It didn't take me long to understand that some (many, most?) black people have seen so much mistreatment and even death at the hands of white people (especially law enforcement) who always seem to get away with it, why not the other way around? Is this the society we want? Is this the shining city on the hill?

 

[bradly1101]

As a puff might, I was thinking about all the important minorities there are, but related to one in particular. Until very recently gays weren't so widely accepted, and I'm old, so I watched the whole evolution. It was interesting how it tracked with exposure and coming out. When a regular non-apologetic repeating gay character made it into prime time, everything seemed to change. It started with Bewitched, you could count on Uncle Arthur for a laugh, and Paul Lynde was a brilliant comedian, but he played to peoples' stereotypes. Predictably nothing happened, and it was before Stonewall. I think it was Dynasty that had the first serious gay character who had a gay relationship(s - I don't remember) and complexity. Archie Bunker helped the cause too, exposing our meaningless, ridiculous biases.

Before all that, gays were thought of as oversexed perverts you wouldn't want to be around. I've run into few but they're far in the minority like with straight people, and maybe being in the closet affects serious relationships; we couldn't really hold hands in public, now I see it all the time. We don't feel like we're in a straight person's world anymore. Despite exposure, other minorities haven't fared so well. Could it be that there's no "Gay" box to check on any form I've ever filled out? Forms I fill out now at my dentist's office ask if I am Latino and if I'm white Latino. I think the statistics invite, but don't cause, divisions, and it can certainly be argued that the numbers tell us where to target resources, but for whom? Assistance? Law enforcement? Poverty and crime, racial division.

Back to the LGBT, that they're finally being seen as equals is amazing (where available)! They also have the financial clout that comes with all this acceptance, [edit] but some still won't take our money, citing moral grounds. No cakes for them! Isn't sugar now seen as the sin? Would we have gotten this far without the tube? Phosphors lighting up the brain, enlightening it. We, like all minorities, have been here a really long time. Some used to peg us at 10% of the U.S., the Gallup Poll says less than 4%, but of course these are meaningless to the gays, [edit: and don't invite division anymore]. Only acceptance is, not being seen as too different or harmfully different and amoral. We always thought of ourselves that way as we found out that we didn't corner the market on amorality, "sin." Despite the low numbers, we've broken free.

 

[bradly1101]

I had to see the doctor yesterday; there's a weird, painless, hard bump on my right elbow, and it's growing. There's nothing like it on the left. After I saw the doctor, she led me back to the waiting room, and told me to wait. I sat there for two hours (it wasn't too bad; I had my phone).

So I went up to the counter and asked, "What am I waiting for?" I was personable as always. The receptionist said, "Orders from the doctor." I said, "For what?" She said, "Your next appointment." I said, "How long does that take?" She said, peering at her screen, "We don't have anything yet." With a bit of an eye roll she looked at her colleague at the counter who looked at her screen and said, "No, we have nothing yet. Please have a seat." But I remained, not out of indignation, but curiosity and the fact that I was hungry as hell; I hadn't eaten lunch yet, and it was almost 4PM.

Just then the doctor walked by behind them. I said, "Excuse me doctor, what am I waiting for?" She said, "We need approval for your X-ray." I asked, "How long does that take?" She said, "We'll call you." I said, "Then why did you tell me to wait?" She said, "For your follow-up appointment." I said, "How long does that take, I've been waiting two hours?" She looked at the ladies I had been talking to behind the counter and said, "I sent the orders a long time ago." The receptionist looked at her screen again and said, "Oh, we just didn't see it."

So two different ladies looking at two different computer terminals missed the doctor's orders, or they were lying to me.

Earlier during the exam, the doctor called in her boss who poked and prodded the bump just like she did, and they both had said, "Well I just don't know what this is." He kept asking me, "Does this hurt?" I said no. He pinched it, and I said, "That hurts a little." Both doctors laughed at me with an obvious "no duh" sentiment, and he said, "Well, I'm pinching you!" How could I know that he didn't want that information? Why do people enjoy trying to make others feel stupid?

Between both doctors, the ladies at reception, and all the other patients waiting, I was the only white person there. God, I hope this all wasn't about race or the fact that I'm gay (my mom told me when I was 17 and not "out" yet that it was obvious that I'm gay - others disagreed with that). So I said in a calm voice, but loud enough for the doctor to hear, "Remember, it's OK to apologize." She said nothing and handed me an appointment slip that she just needed to press a button for.

They set the appointment for way out in February. I hope it's nothing worrisome, again it's growing, and I told both doctors that.

On the upside, my lunch was tastier than usual; I was ravenous.

Life.

 

[Jaskalas]

As a puff might, I was thinking about all the important minorities there are, but related to one in particular. Until very recently gays weren't so widely accepted, and I'm old, so I watched the whole evolution. It was interesting how it tracked with exposure and coming out. When a regular non-apologetic repeating gay character made it into prime time, everything seemed to change. It started with Bewitched, you could count on Uncle Arthur for a laugh, and Paul Lynde was a brilliant comedian, but he played to peoples' stereotypes. Predictably nothing happened, and it was before Stonewall. I think it was Dynasty that had the first serious gay character who had a gay relationship(s - I don't remember) and complexity. Archie Bunker helped the cause too, exposing our meaningless, ridiculous biases.

Before all that, gays were thought of as oversexed perverts you wouldn't want to be around. I've run into few but they're far in the minority like with straight people, and maybe being in the closet affects serious relationships; we couldn't really hold hands in public, now I see it all the time. We don't feel like we're in a straight person's world anymore. Despite exposure, other minorities haven't fared so well. Could it be that there's no "Gay" box to check on any form I've ever filled out? Forms I fill out now at my dentist's office ask if I am Latino and if I'm white Latino. I think the statistics invite, but don't cause, divisions, and it can certainly be argued that the numbers tell us where to target resources, but for whom? Assistance? Law enforcement? Poverty and crime, racial division.

Back to the LGBT, that they're finally being seen as equals is amazing (where available)! They also have the financial clout that comes with all this acceptance, [edit] but some still won't take our money, citing moral grounds. No cakes for them! Isn't sugar now seen as the sin? Would we have gotten this far without the tube? Phosphors lighting up the brain, enlightening it. We, like all minorities, have been here a really long time. Some used to peg us at 10% of the U.S., the Gallup Poll says less than 4%, but of course these are meaningless to the gays, [edit: and don't invite division anymore]. Only acceptance is, not being seen as too different or harmfully different and amoral. We always thought of ourselves that way as we found out that we didn't corner the market on amorality, "sin." Despite the low numbers, we've broken free.

I believe the rapid acceptance comes from a lack of segregation. Gays are among us, part of our culture. There are black actors I absolutely love. But I also have also run into some folks who I know hated me at first sight. I cannot say I've ever known a gay person to hate me. Without that historical and cultural barrier comes instant acceptance. Kinship does not form between those who glare at each other for the past crimes of a third party.

 

[bradly1101]

I believe the rapid acceptance comes from a lack of segregation. Gays are among us, part of our culture. There are black actors I absolutely love. But I also have also run into some folks who I know hated me at first sight. I cannot say I've ever known a gay person to hate me. Without that historical and cultural barrier comes instant acceptance. Kinship does not form between those who glare at each other for the past crimes of a third party.

Excellent points. The most divisions I've seen regarding gays were on the schoolyard, and it was one-sided.

When I was in my early twenties, I don't know if what I experienced was a backlash against burgeoning gay acceptance with its TV character on Dynasty, or just pure hate (fear). I met a really cute guy in a beachside gay bar. We talked, it was loud, so he invited me for a walk on the beach. My low self-esteem and my voice said "sure!"

He seemed to want to walk toward a group of guys who appeared to be partying. As I tried to lead us away, he put his foot behind my leg, and pushed me down. The group of guys (seven?) ran over, and they all started beating on me with bats and their kicks for a long time. They told me they had a gun, and if I tried to run, they'd shoot me. They took my shoes and apparently were trying to remove my clothes when one of them yelled out that I had shit and pissed myself.

They finally stopped and seemed to leave, but as I got up, they came at me again. This repeated until I stayed down for what seemed like forever. I couldn't see well and could tell I was injured, my keys and wallet were gone, so I went to a liquor store, asked to use their phone bleeding and black and blue, and called my mom. The doctor said I had contusions all over, that nothing was broken, and I had a "closed eye injury" from the swelling (from getting kicked I think), which turned out to be permanent; the lens and iris were fused from the impact(s), preventing the iris's movement with changing light levels, the swelling eventually subsided. Sand was in every wound, and was excruciating as the removed it. I gave a police report in the ER, but I never heard back from them. Any self-esteem I had left was shattered, but I was much more cautious from then on.

Years later, I saw an interview on local TV with a man who was making amends for leading others to gay-bash (It was part of his punishment when he got caught). He looked a lot like the guy apparently leading the group that got to me (not the one from the bar), I'll never forget that big, white, bald head. One of his victims was on the show forgiving him. I've forgiven a lot in my life, but somehow couldn't for this. Maybe writing this will help. I've known hate, but not toward any group. Life goes on. Divisions wax and wane for some groups, others have yet to rise above intolerance, but often have their own. It's true, gays never really tried to foster those divisions, except to say, "Honey, please!"