Why do we make the 'minority' distinction?

[J.Wilkins]

Well of course it's to know who is on the approved list to hate.

Unless your eyes are as blue as mine are and your hair is blonde as mine is then .... eventually.... you're next.

Funny thing though, my mum is Jewish which kinda makes me a Jew...

 

[Jhhnn]

America is a country founded on the genocide (sexual and labour enslavement, followed by mass extermination) of an entire race, with it proceeding to subject another race to sexual and labour enslavement during it's teenage years.

Wondering why the US has problems among an interracial population is dumb. Everybody knows why; because of all the bad shit the majority did to the minority, all the bad shit the majority continues to do to the minority, and the lingering aftereffects of both.

Well, that kinda explains Ireland, too, doesn't it? Not to mention the white man's burden of maintaining the former British Empire...

 

[bradly1101]

Given that you still teach that people escaped religious oppression in England to form a new community (the exact opposite is true) and the rest of the bullshit taught about how the US never made a single mistake in the history of mankind at all ever never at all ever... Well... If you don't learn from your mistakes even when you nuke nations for no reason WHAT SO EVER then you are doomed to repeat that bullshit.

Or to put it another way, if you think you have everything figured out, why on earth would you change anything?

We seem to feed on false pride. Manifest-destiny my ass.

 

[MajinCry]

Well, that kinda explains Ireland, too, doesn't it? Not to mention the white man's burden of maintaining the former British Empire...

On the subject of Ireland, it's a great example of how you actually deal with state-deemed terrorists; if you stop invading, slaughtering, raping, and conquering the people, they stop fighting back. Funny that.

 

[sdifox]

No, they're not. They absolutely aren't.

There's a difference between racism existing in a country and being widespread. Do you see racist groups marching proudly in Canada, feeling like they have the support of the government? No, you don't. Do you see politicians who court racism getting much success in Canada? No, you don't. There were a couple of candidates for the country's Conservative Party leadership who styled themselves as Trump-wannabes, complete with racist dogwhistles; they got shut down. It's very open to immigration, and its current leadership is some of the most diverse you'll see in the G8.

This isn't to say racism isn't a problem in Canada, but it's not nearly as pervasive as it is in the US. If nothing else, the lack of a slavery legacy means there are fewer people desperately clinging to racism as part of their cultural identity.

Canadian racism is still abundant, but it is somewhat improving. Other than Quebec of course...

 

[bradly1101]

In America we have a lot of intelligent, ingenious, accepting people (just like everywhere else), yet despite relevant examples in the world, the answers seem to (sometimes intentionally) elude us. Are we too "powerful" to learn from the "less powerful?" Is our pride that myopic? I grew up in the 1960's. Race relations (seeing ourselves as different) seemed to be as much a problem then as now, and I have no doubt it will span my lifetime. Racial statistics seem to fan the flames rather than give us insight.

 

[MajinCry]

I'd argue that America isn't even as accepting as you think it is. The US and Canada still have Apartheid; the indigenous peoples are heavily subjugated, and every time your Governments tried to "integrate" them, it was intentionally done in a manner to subjugate and oppress them even more.

Canadians are nice, sure, if you ignore what they do to the Natives. And Americans are freedom lovers, if you ignore all that anti-freedom stuff.

 

[Commodus]

Canadian racism is still abundant, but it is somewhat improving. Other than Quebec of course...

Oh, I'm not pretending it's rare! It's just that Canada is a bastion of diversity and inclusion compared to the US.

 

[bradly1101]

Canada. Roughly 1/4 of our population is foreign born.

I should have included Canada in the list of places I have visited where integration works better. I've only visited the Vancouver/Victoria area (like heaven as the Kids in the Hall said in a funny skit), but acceptance seems more widespread. In all the places I visited on both continents, racially divided slums and ghettos didn't seem to be part of the mix like they are here.

 

[FIVR]

The US is, uniquely, a country originally colonized by persecuted religious and ethnic minorities. It was first colonized by the British, then shortly after the Germans, then the Irish, then the Chinese and Italians... and for the first 250 years it had millions of african slaves shipped over to it. The idea of "minority vs majority" doesn't really have a similar context in any other nation on earth, and is uniquely significant here in the US. That is why our most important founding document starts with "all men are created equal". The whole idea of the country was to protect minorities. The only reason blacks were not considered so by law, is because blacks were literally considered sub-human by a large majority of people in the US for hundreds of years. They just didn't think they were people.

The idea that the US could just ignore its past and act like Turkey or Egypt or Russia in the way it treats its minority population is absurd. The US simply has too long a history and too large a number of minorities to do so. We would end up with an apartheid state like South Africa or Israel if we did, where only one race are legal citizens and the remainder became a huge restless and angry underclass.

 

[96Firebird]

Canadians are nice, sure, if you ignore what they do to the Natives.

Oh yeah, I forgot about this thing called the "Sixties Scoop" that happened in Canada, heard about that in the news as well. I guess a bunch of native children were forced into adoption against the family's wishes, some of them right after birth. A settlement was finally reached between the Canadian government and the victims, of course not all victims are happy with it. I thought it was a crazy thing that I had never heard about.

 

[MajinCry]

Oh yeah, I forgot about this thing called the "Sixties Scoop" that happened in Canada, heard about that in the news as well. I guess a bunch of native children were forced into adoption against the family's wishes, some of them right after birth. A settlement was finally reached between the Canadian government and the victims, of course not all victims are happy with it. I thought it was a crazy thing that I had never heard about.

That's hardly the worst thing. What about the institutionalized rape, torture, experimentation, sterilization, abduction, and murder of Native American children? The US, Canda, and the Catholic Church worked together for a century and a half on these institutions.

http://web.archive.org/web/20170314085144/http://www.amnestyusa.org/node/87342

 

[Zorba]

I would guess and I think I've read that places that have more minorities tend to have more racial harmony. Race in big cities isn't a big deal as it is in more rural, homogenous areas. Most racism stems from a lack of exposure to other types of people.

I think in cities people tend to have more "general" racism, as opposed to individual racism. I.e. they have no problem with hispanics or blacks they know and may not even think about other people around them in public being one thing or the other. But if you talk to them, they may still make vast sweeping generalizations about "Mexicans" and "Blacks" that definitely cross the line into racist.

I'd assume if you go out into rural areas, there is probably a lot more racism truely directed at individuals due to less exposure.

I think to some degree the general racism is probably somewhat human nature. Just like we see you generalize baby boomers, or other people generalize people from the middle of the country.

As to the OP, I am sure the US still thinks about race more than other counties because we were segregated for so long and had Jim Crow. One of our two neighbors is also a different race than our majority, and that country is very poor, so it makes it easier for us to judge them. I don't think many European countries really have either of those issues.

 

[bradly1101]

Unacceptable.

https://www.ussc.gov/research/research-reports/demographic-differences-sentencing

Consistent with its previous reports, the Commission found that sentence length continues to be associated with some demographic factors. In particular, after controlling for a wide variety of sentencing factors, the Commission found:

1. Black male offenders continued to receive longer sentences than similarly situated White male offenders. Black male offenders received sentences on average 19.1 percent longer than similarly situated White male offenders during the Post-Report period (fiscal years 2012-2016), as they had for the prior four periods studied. The differences in sentence length remained relatively unchanged compared to the Post-Gall period.
2. Non-government sponsored departures and variances appear to contribute significantly to the difference in sentence length between Black male and White male offenders. Black male offenders were 21.2 percent less likely than White male offenders to receive a non-government sponsored downward departure or variance during the Post-Report period. Furthermore, when Black male offenders did receive a non-government sponsored departure or variance, they received sentences 16.8 percent longer than White male offenders who received a non-government sponsored departure or variance. In contrast, there was a 7.9 percent difference in sentence length between Black male and White male offenders who received sentences within the applicable sentencing guidelines range, and there was no statistically significant difference in sentence length between Black male and White male offenders who received a substantial assistance departure.

 

[ivwshane]

Unacceptable.

https://www.ussc.gov/research/research-reports/demographic-differences-sentencing

Consistent with its previous reports, the Commission found that sentence length continues to be associated with some demographic factors. In particular, after controlling for a wide variety of sentencing factors, the Commission found:

1. Black male offenders continued to receive longer sentences than similarly situated White male offenders. Black male offenders received sentences on average 19.1 percent longer than similarly situated White male offenders during the Post-Report period (fiscal years 2012-2016), as they had for the prior four periods studied. The differences in sentence length remained relatively unchanged compared to the Post-Gall period.
2. Non-government sponsored departures and variances appear to contribute significantly to the difference in sentence length between Black male and White male offenders. Black male offenders were 21.2 percent less likely than White male offenders to receive a non-government sponsored downward departure or variance during the Post-Report period. Furthermore, when Black male offenders did receive a non-government sponsored departure or variance, they received sentences 16.8 percent longer than White male offenders who received a non-government sponsored departure or variance. In contrast, there was a 7.9 percent difference in sentence length between Black male and White male offenders who received sentences within the applicable sentencing guidelines range, and there was no statistically significant difference in sentence length between Black male and White male offenders who received a substantial assistance departure.

Sadly, this will fall in deaf ears, be it with the current political majority or those that support/vote for them.

 

[bbhaag]

All these countries are smaller, but why can't their acceptance, lack of fear, lack of feeling better than, whatever it is be upscaled here? Going by my experiences in Germany, Austria, and Belgium I didn't see job sectors as dominated by race as I see here. It seemed normal there for all races to be wearing a suit and tie, carrying a briefcase/satchel, and entering and exiting an office building. Here if you visit downtown L.A. the business people scurrying about are vastly white, while just a few short blocks away is skid row dominated by black and brown people languishing in poverty. I just didn't see that there.

Since then there has obviously been an influx of migrants from Africa and the Middle East escaping violent race and religious differences, poverty, crime, terrorism, and coalition, Syrian, Russian, and Iraqi bombs. This is a relatively new situation born of overpopulation (IMO), and fueled by these perceived differences in their home countries. Still many places in Europe welcome these folks, try to integrate them, get them jobs, and give them benefits with barely a whimper. They aren't generally considered "illegals" nor are they relegated to "less than" status. That's not to say that there hasn't been nationalistic, racist uprisings, and although some of those groups are gaining seats in government since they do represent some views, overall the strength of integration there will prevail over divisiveness (IMO).

Here in this forum I remember a member proudly saying that he confronted brown people speaking Spanish by emphatically telling them to speak English. Would he have said that to a white Dutch couple speaking Dutch? Race aside, who would say such a thing? I don't wonder how I would feel if in my travels while speaking English if someone said to me, "Speak [whatever]!" I know I wouldn't feel welcome. It's my guess that this happens often in the U.S., although mainly in the middle.

In Mexico whites are welcomed with ease, and many have happily immigrated there with few if any racial problems. I know that having a job or being financially independent have advantages in immigration everywhere.

"If your move to Mexico involves retirement, Mexico makes that easy. Retirement visas are granted liberally and one can achieve Permanent Resident status without transitioning through the Temporary Residency process. Visas are easy to obtain and the process begins at the Mexican embassy in your home state or province."

I could go on about other countries/regions. Although connected, this is more about race than immigration. I see whites welcomed all over the world, even honored in some historically black areas/countries. Why aren't many whites in the U.S. as embracing to not only immigrants but to different races in general? Going by my experience in my first post, many blacks feel mutually. Why do we in the U.S. (whites and blacks) embrace hatred of "others" so much? Doesn't integration have demonstrably better outcomes? Are we still so tribal? Why do some places overcome that instinct?

So you had a lot to say and I can appreciate that. I want you to know that I did read your post and the links you provided about immigration into Mexico. They were also a good read if not a little old.
You have mentioned Germany as a place you experienced that did not seem to have these limitations when it comes to race and immigration. Now I do not want you to take this the wrong way but I do not believe you are fully aware of the situation going on in Germany right now regarding immigration.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...le-over-immigration-euro-budget-idUSKBN1DF1CV

You have also mentioned your experiences in Austria and Belgium. I believe that immigration was the dominant issue in Austrias latest election. As far as Belgium is concerned I do not know their stance on these issues and have not looked into them.

I am sure you had a wonderful experience in Germany, Austria, and Belgium but please do not put these countries up on a pedestal.

 

[bradly1101]

So you had a lot to say and I can appreciate that. I want you to know that I did read your post and the links you provided about immigration into Mexico. They were also a good read if not a little old.
You have mentioned Germany as a place you experienced that did not seem to have these limitations when it comes to race and immigration. Now I do not want you to take this the wrong way but I do not believe you are fully aware of the situation going on in Germany right now regarding immigration.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...le-over-immigration-euro-budget-idUSKBN1DF1CV

You have also mentioned your experiences in Austria and Belgium. I believe that immigration was the dominant issue in Austrias latest election. As far as Belgium is concerned I do not know their stance on these issues and have not looked into them.

I am sure you had a wonderful experience in Germany, Austria, and Belgium but please do not put these countries up on a pedestal.

Yes foreign looking terrorists cause fear as well as perceived differences do (in some), and fear can win elections. I guess I wasn't too clear on the immigration vs. racism thing. Are they inexorably linked?

 

[bbhaag]

Yes foreign looking terrorists cause fear as well as perceived differences do (in some), and fear can win elections. I guess I wasn't too clear on the immigration vs. racism thing. Are they inexorably linked?

No you were not but that is ok. To answer your question yes I believe they are. At least for the foreseeable future anyway. Now I am in no way condoning that way of thinking. I do not agree with it but there is no denying that it is here in both North America and in Europe.

 

[wahdangun]

its because social media, we in indonesia was really multi racial multi ethnic and multi religion. but somehow since the arrival of social media, our country is now in intense heated multi religion multi ethnic conflict.

and the problem is if we want to remove any segregation is not to discuss racial thing just make every one is same regardless of race, religion or ethnic.

I'm remember martin luther king that said "every man must be judged by its action not because of its skin"

and its really irritating me seeing antifa, BLM, BAMN. they never live in real fascist country like us, we use to have dictatorship as president, there is no free speech, no democracy, you can't even practicing the religion in peace.

and from my experience this antifa/BLM/BAMN is the real fascist, silencing people they disagree with.

 

[bradly1101]

its because social media, we in indonesia was really multi racial multi ethnic and multi religion. but somehow since the arrival of social media, our country is now in intense heated multi religion multi ethnic conflict.

and the problem is if we want to remove any segregation is not to discuss racial thing just make every one is same regardless of race, religion or ethnic.

I'm remember martin luther king that said "every man must be judged by its action not because of its skin"

and its really irritating me seeing antifa, BLM, BAMN. they never live in real fascist country like us, we use to have dictatorship as president, there is no free speech, no democracy, you can't even practicing the religion in peace.

and from my experience this antifa/BLM/BAMN is the real fascist, silencing people they disagree with.

Social media has a lot going for it, and it also makes it easy to become part of a mob. But there are many other reasons for tensions in Indonesia too.

Antifa/BLM are reactions to people feeling unheard. There's no doubt to me that Antifa's tactics spoil their message. The voice of violence is a weak one. Black Lives Matter sure got their message out, but some of their tactics too seem to run counter to wanting acceptance by blocking roads or interrupting speeches like Bernie Sanders's.

Of course the forces they disagree with have been violent and otherwise disrupt the basic feelings of empathy and unification. Here there was a movement called "Political Correctness" based on those feelings of empathy and unification, but sadly and strangely it was snuffed out like a cigarette butt. Divisions in many places seem to have taken hold of people. Social media certainly has a role in those divisions; it makes it easier to exercise our ancient and harmful instinct of tribalism. We can do better.

 

[MajinCry]

its because social media, we in indonesia was really multi racial multi ethnic and multi religion. but somehow since the arrival of social media, our country is now in intense heated multi religion multi ethnic conflict.

and the problem is if we want to remove any segregation is not to discuss racial thing just make every one is same regardless of race, religion or ethnic.

I'm remember martin luther king that said "every man must be judged by its action not because of its skin"

and its really irritating me seeing antifa, BLM, BAMN. they never live in real fascist country like us, we use to have dictatorship as president, there is no free speech, no democracy, you can't even practicing the religion in peace.

and from my experience this antifa/BLM/BAMN is the real fascist, silencing people they disagree with.

Well that's not true at all. Remember when Indonesia committed genocide against the people in East Timor, with the US' backing, aid, and weaponry? That doesn't exactly show your country as racially tolerant.

 

[bradly1101]

No you were not but that is ok. To answer your question yes I believe they are. At least for the foreseeable future anyway. Now I am in no way condoning that way of thinking. I do not agree with it but there is no denying that it is here in both North America and in Europe.

It's interesting; I know an anchor for France24 who lives in Paris, a much attacked city in a country burgeoning with immigrants with apparently nowhere to go, yet he is the most optimistic person I know. He helped me through a particularly difficult time with the death of a loved one.

The immigration problem they face has American and European fingerprints all over it. As I mentioned above, many of these immigrants are escaping bombs of American manufacture. On today's Democracy Now it was revealed that civilian casualties by American actions are 31 times higher than the Pentagon's numbers. The most precise campaign? This won't gain much traction though since it criticizes our military, and much history (even recent history) here is at least revisionist and at most outright lies.

So groups here and in Europe rail against the immigration we helped create, and instead of accepting that, they join political movements with anti-immigration and racism at their core. Crazy. To me it's all a symptom of overpopulation, but hey, we like to screw.

 

[wahdangun]

Social media has a lot going for it, and it also makes it easy to become part of a mob. But there are many other reasons for tensions in Indonesia too.

Antifa/BLM are reactions to people feeling unheard. There's no doubt to me that Antifa's tactics spoil their message. The voice of violence is a weak one. Black Lives Matter sure got their message out, but some of their tactics too seem to run counter to wanting acceptance by blocking roads or interrupting speeches like Bernie Sanders's.

Of course the forces they disagree with have been violent and otherwise disrupt the basic feelings of empathy and unification. Here there was a movement called "Political Correctness" based on those feelings of empathy and unification, but sadly and strangely it was snuffed out like a cigarette butt. Divisions in many places seem to have taken hold of people. Social media certainly has a role in those divisions; it makes it easier to exercise our ancient and harmful instinct of tribalism. We can do better.

Like I said, because social media, and since we don't have freedom of speech in our constitution, we are at danger of "hate speech's" rule, and I hate that antifa/blm/bamn, born on free speech country want to ban free speech, just because it's offended you? Give me a break and grow thick skin.

 

[wahdangun]

Well that's not true at all. Remember when Indonesia committed genocide against the people in East Timor, with the US' backing, aid, and weaponry? That doesn't exactly show your country as racially tolerant.

It was in the time when we have dictator president, so no we hopeless in that situation, until in 1997 when we unite and uprising to remove that dictator from our government and form new Democratic government, and I know it was not perfect but at least we can have our voices heard, but since the rise of social media our country is in danger, especially a threat from Islamic extremist, and now our government have build "hate speech's" law, it's so unsettling, and dangerous, I don't want that.

So if you American want to have "hate speech's" law you can switch for me, and I will gladly accept any "oppression" , "racial slur" you throw at me, for your freedom of speech.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Instead of minorities should we go back to 'Colored'?