Why do right wingers lie about there being no free democratic muslim nations.

DVK916

Banned
Dec 12, 2005
2,765
0
0
I keep hearing right wingers lie about there being no free democratic muslim nation in the world. This is not true.

Mali and Senegal are Muslim nation who people enjoy as much democracy as people do in the U.S.
 

Tab

Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
12,145
0
76
There isn't a lot of freedom in middle eastern nations, most of the countries are just run by extremely wealthy families, oligarchys basically. I bet all of those nation just enjoy the idea of a democratic country being right in there vicinity.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
You forgot Turkey, and the newest addition to the club, Afghanistan. Soon Iraq joins the list. Not much, but it's a start.
 

DVK916

Banned
Dec 12, 2005
2,765
0
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
You forgot Turkey, and the newest addition to the club, Afghanistan. Soon Iraq joins the list. Not much, but it's a start.

As long as 1 American soldier is in Iraq or Afghanistan they will never be free.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Originally posted by: alchemize
You forgot Turkey, and the newest addition to the club, Afghanistan. Soon Iraq joins the list. Not much, but it's a start.

The difference is Turkey actually chose democracy; I've met people from Turkey (devout Muslims, who probably still live more or less under the 'old rules' in their personal lives)who are very proud of their newfound freedoms. I wonder if the same is true in Afghanistan or Iraq (particularly, where the people seem to have chosen 'government by religion' when freely asked what they want).
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
Well aside from that I think the biggest reason of a lack of democracy in the middle east is because the area has had foreign intervention for a century now where the intervening countries are looking for anything BUT democracy.


In the early 1900s Britian and France carving up the region didn't seem to promote democracy at all. Then add the fact that post WW2 era led to US intervention where the goal was NOT democracy, but any kind of government that kept a flow of oil going. Every single Middle East Tyrant from Mubarek to Arafat to Saddam has their roots back with the CIA in the 50s and 60s. We support leaders like "King Abdullah" of Jordan, when over 95% of that country lives in extreme poverty while the Monarchy pimps it with their Harly Motorcycles. Places like Saudi Arabia speak for itself! We even support the Authoritarian Oman because they gave us more naval bases....maybe part of the reason the "Sultan" (who was previously in the military when he led his coup) wants us is the fact that he can barely control 40% of the land that he claims to rule....

I just think it seems a little ironic how we complain they aren't democratic when for atleast fifty years the policy was anything but democracy.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Iran is more democratic than any of our allies in the region, particularly moreso than KSA and Kuwait, who follow the midieval system of the Divine Right of Kings, and moreso than Israel, where half the population under the control of the govt effectively has no vote.

Think of Iran as the kind of democracy we'd have in the US if the fundie fringe had their way...

And, uhh, we kinda missed an opportunity to "spread democracy" when we put the Kuwaiti royals back in power...
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: DVK916
Originally posted by: alchemize
You forgot Turkey, and the newest addition to the club, Afghanistan. Soon Iraq joins the list. Not much, but it's a start.

As long as 1 American soldier is in Iraq or Afghanistan they will never be free.

So Japan and Germany aren't free either by your standards right?
 

imported_Condor

Diamond Member
Sep 22, 2004
5,425
0
0
What are you Sultan reborn? Wonder why the US sides with Israel in ME issues? Here:

The Middle East has been growing date palms for centuries. The average tree
is about 18-20 feet tall and yields about 38 pounds of dates a year.

Israeli date trees are now yielding 400 pounds/year and are short enough to
be harvested from the ground or a short ladder.

Israel the 100th smallest country, with less than 1/1000th of the world's
population, can lay claim to the following:

The cell phone was developed in Israel by Israelis working in the Israeli
branch of Motorola, which has its largest development center in Israel.

Most of the Windows NT and XP operating systems were developed by
Microsoft-Israel.

The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel.

Both the Pentium-4 microprocessor and the Centrino processor were entirely
designed, developed and produced in Israel.

The Pentium microprocessor in your computer was most likely made in Israel.

Voice mail technology was developed in Israel.

Both Microsoft and Cisco built their only R&D facilities outside the US in
Israel.

The technology for the AOL Instant Messenger ICQ was developed in 1996 by
four young Israelis.

Israel has the fourth largest air force in the world (after the U.S, Russia
and China). In addition to a large variety of other aircraft, Israel's air
force has an aerial arsenal of over 250 F-16's. This is the largest fleet of F-16
aircraft outside of the U. S.

Israel's $100 billion economy is larger than all of its immediate neighbors
combined.

Israel has the highest percentage in the world of home computers per capita.

According to industry officials, Israel designed the airline industry's most
impenetrable flight security. US officials now look (finally) to Israel for
advice on how to handle airborne security threats.

Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees to the population in the
world.

Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation by a
large margin - 109 per 10,000 people --as well as one of the highest per
capita rates of patents filed.

In proportion to its population, Israel has the largest number of startup
companies in the world. In absolute terms, Israel has the largest number of
startup companies than any other country in the world, except the U.S. (3,500
companies mostly in hi-tech).

With more than 3,000 high-tech companies and startups, Israel has the
highest concentration of hi-tech companies in the world -- apart from the Silicon
Valley, U.S.

Israel is ranked #2 in the world for venture capital funds right behind the
U.S.

Outside the United States and Canada, Israel has the largest number of
NASDAQ listed companies.

Israel has the highest average living standards in the Middle East.

The per capita income in 2000 was over $17,500, exceeding that of the UK.

On a per capita basis, Israel has the largest number of biotech startups.

Twenty-four per cent of Israel's workforce holds university degrees, ranking
third in the industrialized world, after the United States and Holland and 12
per cent hold advanced degrees.

Israel is the only liberal democracy in the Middle East.

In 1984 and 1991, Israel airlifted a total of 22,000 Ethiopian Jews
(Operation Solomon) at Risk in Ethiopia, to safety in Israel.

When Golda Meir was elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1969, she became the
world's second elected female leader in modern times.

When the U. S. Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya was bombed in 1998, Israeli rescue
teams were on the scene within a day -- and saved three victims from the
rubble.

Israel has the third highest rate of entrepreneurship -- and the highest
rate among women and among people over 55 - in the world.

Relative to its population, Israel is the largest immigrant-absorbing nation
on earth. Immigrants come in search of democracy, religious freedom, and
economic opportunity. (Hundreds of thousands from the former Soviet Union)

Israel was the first nation in the world to adopt the Kimberly process, an
international standard that certifies diamonds as "conflict free."

Israel has the world's second highest per capita of new books.

Israel is the only country in the world that entered the 21st century with a
net gain in its number of trees, made more remarkable because this was
achieved in an area considered mainly desert.

Israel has more museums per capita than any other country.

Medicine... Israeli scientists developed the first fully computerized,
no-radiation, diagnostic instrumentation for breast cancer.

An Israeli company developed a computerized system for ensuring proper
administration of medications, thus removing human error from medical treatment.
Every year in U. S. hospitals 7,000 patients die from treatment mistakes.

Israel's Given Imaging developed the first ingestible video camera, so small
it fits inside a pill. Used to view the small intestine from the inside,
cancer and digestive disorders.

Researchers in Israel developed a new device that directly helps the heart
pump blood, an innovation with the potential to save lives among those with
heart failure. The new device is synchronized with the camera helps doctors
diagnose heart??Ts mechanical operations through a sophisticated system of sensors.

Israel leads the world in the number of scientists and technicians in the
workforce, with 145 per 10,000, as opposed to 85 in the U. S., over 70 in Japan,
and less than 60 in Germany. With over 25% of its work force employed in
technical professions. Israel places first in this category as well.

A new acne treatment developed in Israel, the Clear Light device, produces a
high-intensity, ultraviolet-light-free, narrow-band blue light that causes
acne bacteria to self-destruct -- all without damaging surrounding skin or
tissue.

An Israeli company was the first to develop and install a large-scale
solar-powered and fully functional electricity generating plant, in southern
California's Mojave desert.

All the above while engaged in regular wars with an implacable enemy that
seeks its destruction, and an economy continuously under strain by having to
spend more per capita on its own protection than any other county on earth.

Now, you tell me why Isreal has built an oasis where the rest of the middle east who couldn't hire progress with oil money (that the western world built for them) has had no progress?



 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,821
33,839
136
Originally posted by: Condor
What are you Sultan reborn? Wonder why the US sides with Israel in ME issues? Here:

The Middle East has been growing date palms for centuries. The average tree
is about 18-20 feet tall and yields about 38 pounds of dates a year.

Israeli date trees are now yielding 400 pounds/year and are short enough to
be harvested from the ground or a short ladder.

Israel the 100th smallest country, with less than 1/1000th of the world's
population, can lay claim to the following:

The cell phone was developed in Israel by Israelis working in the Israeli
branch of Motorola, which has its largest development center in Israel.

Most of the Windows NT and XP operating systems were developed by
Microsoft-Israel.

The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel.

Both the Pentium-4 microprocessor and the Centrino processor were entirely
designed, developed and produced in Israel.

The Pentium microprocessor in your computer was most likely made in Israel.

Voice mail technology was developed in Israel.

Both Microsoft and Cisco built their only R&D facilities outside the US in
Israel.

The technology for the AOL Instant Messenger ICQ was developed in 1996 by
four young Israelis.

Israel has the fourth largest air force in the world (after the U.S, Russia
and China). In addition to a large variety of other aircraft, Israel's air
force has an aerial arsenal of over 250 F-16's. This is the largest fleet of F-16
aircraft outside of the U. S.

Israel's $100 billion economy is larger than all of its immediate neighbors
combined.

Israel has the highest percentage in the world of home computers per capita.

According to industry officials, Israel designed the airline industry's most
impenetrable flight security. US officials now look (finally) to Israel for
advice on how to handle airborne security threats.

Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees to the population in the
world.

Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation by a
large margin - 109 per 10,000 people --as well as one of the highest per
capita rates of patents filed.

In proportion to its population, Israel has the largest number of startup
companies in the world. In absolute terms, Israel has the largest number of
startup companies than any other country in the world, except the U.S. (3,500
companies mostly in hi-tech).

With more than 3,000 high-tech companies and startups, Israel has the
highest concentration of hi-tech companies in the world -- apart from the Silicon
Valley, U.S.

Israel is ranked #2 in the world for venture capital funds right behind the
U.S.

Outside the United States and Canada, Israel has the largest number of
NASDAQ listed companies.

Israel has the highest average living standards in the Middle East.

The per capita income in 2000 was over $17,500, exceeding that of the UK.

On a per capita basis, Israel has the largest number of biotech startups.

Twenty-four per cent of Israel's workforce holds university degrees, ranking
third in the industrialized world, after the United States and Holland and 12
per cent hold advanced degrees.

Israel is the only liberal democracy in the Middle East.

In 1984 and 1991, Israel airlifted a total of 22,000 Ethiopian Jews
(Operation Solomon) at Risk in Ethiopia, to safety in Israel.

When Golda Meir was elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1969, she became the
world's second elected female leader in modern times.

When the U. S. Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya was bombed in 1998, Israeli rescue
teams were on the scene within a day -- and saved three victims from the
rubble.

Israel has the third highest rate of entrepreneurship -- and the highest
rate among women and among people over 55 - in the world.

Relative to its population, Israel is the largest immigrant-absorbing nation
on earth. Immigrants come in search of democracy, religious freedom, and
economic opportunity. (Hundreds of thousands from the former Soviet Union)

Israel was the first nation in the world to adopt the Kimberly process, an
international standard that certifies diamonds as "conflict free."

Israel has the world's second highest per capita of new books.

Israel is the only country in the world that entered the 21st century with a
net gain in its number of trees, made more remarkable because this was
achieved in an area considered mainly desert.

Israel has more museums per capita than any other country.

Medicine... Israeli scientists developed the first fully computerized,
no-radiation, diagnostic instrumentation for breast cancer.

An Israeli company developed a computerized system for ensuring proper
administration of medications, thus removing human error from medical treatment.
Every year in U. S. hospitals 7,000 patients die from treatment mistakes.

Israel's Given Imaging developed the first ingestible video camera, so small
it fits inside a pill. Used to view the small intestine from the inside,
cancer and digestive disorders.

Researchers in Israel developed a new device that directly helps the heart
pump blood, an innovation with the potential to save lives among those with
heart failure. The new device is synchronized with the camera helps doctors
diagnose heart??Ts mechanical operations through a sophisticated system of sensors.

Israel leads the world in the number of scientists and technicians in the
workforce, with 145 per 10,000, as opposed to 85 in the U. S., over 70 in Japan,
and less than 60 in Germany. With over 25% of its work force employed in
technical professions. Israel places first in this category as well.

A new acne treatment developed in Israel, the Clear Light device, produces a
high-intensity, ultraviolet-light-free, narrow-band blue light that causes
acne bacteria to self-destruct -- all without damaging surrounding skin or
tissue.

An Israeli company was the first to develop and install a large-scale
solar-powered and fully functional electricity generating plant, in southern
California's Mojave desert.

All the above while engaged in regular wars with an implacable enemy that
seeks its destruction, and an economy continuously under strain by having to
spend more per capita on its own protection than any other county on earth.

Now, you tell me why Isreal has built an oasis where the rest of the middle east who couldn't hire progress with oil money (that the western world built for them) has had no progress?


Five billion dollars a year in US handouts plus an apartheid system supplying cheap Palestinian labor might have something to do with the lifestyle the Israelis enjoy.
 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,197
4
76
Originally posted by: ironwing

Five billion dollars a year in US handouts plus an apartheid system supplying cheap Palestinian labor might have something to do with the lifestyle the Israelis enjoy.

It's less than five billion, although we do provide a lot more in loans to them. They don't need it for support. The aid is more like a minor leash for us with Israel.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: Strk
Originally posted by: ironwing

Five billion dollars a year in US handouts plus an apartheid system supplying cheap Palestinian labor might have something to do with the lifestyle the Israelis enjoy.

It's less than five billion, although we do provide a lot more in loans to them. They don't need it for support. The aid is more like a minor leash for us with Israel.

IIRC, Ironwing is correct. It's a combination of $3 billion and $2 billion in military and financial aid.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
Originally posted by: Condor
What are you Sultan reborn? Wonder why the US sides with Israel in ME issues? Here:

The Middle East has been growing date palms for centuries. The average tree
is about 18-20 feet tall and yields about 38 pounds of dates a year.

Israeli date trees are now yielding 400 pounds/year and are short enough to
be harvested from the ground or a short ladder.

Israel the 100th smallest country, with less than 1/1000th of the world's
population, can lay claim to the following:

The cell phone was developed in Israel by Israelis working in the Israeli
branch of Motorola, which has its largest development center in Israel.


Most of the Windows NT and XP operating systems were developed by
Microsoft-Israel.

The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel.

Both the Pentium-4 microprocessor and the Centrino processor were entirely
designed, developed and produced in Israel.

The Pentium microprocessor in your computer was most likely made in Israel.

Voice mail technology was developed in Israel.

Both Microsoft and Cisco built their only R&D facilities outside the US in
Israel.


The technology for the AOL Instant Messenger ICQ was developed in 1996 by
four young Israelis.

Israel has the fourth largest air force in the world (after the U.S, Russia
and China). In addition to a large variety of other aircraft, Israel's air
force has an aerial arsenal of over 250 F-16's. This is the largest fleet of F-16
aircraft outside of the U. S.

Israel's $100 billion economy is larger than all of its immediate neighbors
combined.

Israel has the highest percentage in the world of home computers per capita.

According to industry officials, Israel designed the airline industry's most
impenetrable flight security. US officials now look (finally) to Israel for
advice on how to handle airborne security threats.

Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees to the population in the
world.

Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation by a
large margin - 109 per 10,000 people --as well as one of the highest per
capita rates of patents filed.

In proportion to its population, Israel has the largest number of startup
companies in the world. In absolute terms, Israel has the largest number of
startup companies than any other country in the world, except the U.S. (3,500
companies mostly in hi-tech).

With more than 3,000 high-tech companies and startups, Israel has the
highest concentration of hi-tech companies in the world -- apart from the Silicon
Valley, U.S.

Israel is ranked #2 in the world for venture capital funds right behind the
U.S.

Outside the United States and Canada, Israel has the largest number of
NASDAQ listed companies.

Israel has the highest average living standards in the Middle East.

The per capita income in 2000 was over $17,500, exceeding that of the UK.

On a per capita basis, Israel has the largest number of biotech startups.

Twenty-four per cent of Israel's workforce holds university degrees, ranking
third in the industrialized world, after the United States and Holland and 12
per cent hold advanced degrees.

Israel is the only liberal democracy in the Middle East.

In 1984 and 1991, Israel airlifted a total of 22,000 Ethiopian Jews
(Operation Solomon) at Risk in Ethiopia, to safety in Israel.

When Golda Meir was elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1969, she became the
world's second elected female leader in modern times.

When the U. S. Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya was bombed in 1998, Israeli rescue
teams were on the scene within a day -- and saved three victims from the
rubble.

Israel has the third highest rate of entrepreneurship -- and the highest
rate among women and among people over 55 - in the world.

Relative to its population, Israel is the largest immigrant-absorbing nation
on earth. Immigrants come in search of democracy, religious freedom, and
economic opportunity. (Hundreds of thousands from the former Soviet Union)

Israel was the first nation in the world to adopt the Kimberly process, an
international standard that certifies diamonds as "conflict free."

Israel has the world's second highest per capita of new books.

Israel is the only country in the world that entered the 21st century with a
net gain in its number of trees, made more remarkable because this was
achieved in an area considered mainly desert.

Israel has more museums per capita than any other country.

Medicine... Israeli scientists developed the first fully computerized,
no-radiation, diagnostic instrumentation for breast cancer.

An Israeli company developed a computerized system for ensuring proper
administration of medications, thus removing human error from medical treatment.
Every year in U. S. hospitals 7,000 patients die from treatment mistakes.

Israel's Given Imaging developed the first ingestible video camera, so small
it fits inside a pill. Used to view the small intestine from the inside,
cancer and digestive disorders.

Researchers in Israel developed a new device that directly helps the heart
pump blood, an innovation with the potential to save lives among those with
heart failure. The new device is synchronized with the camera helps doctors
diagnose heart??Ts mechanical operations through a sophisticated system of sensors.

Israel leads the world in the number of scientists and technicians in the
workforce, with 145 per 10,000, as opposed to 85 in the U. S., over 70 in Japan,
and less than 60 in Germany. With over 25% of its work force employed in
technical professions. Israel places first in this category as well.

A new acne treatment developed in Israel, the Clear Light device, produces a
high-intensity, ultraviolet-light-free, narrow-band blue light that causes
acne bacteria to self-destruct -- all without damaging surrounding skin or
tissue.

An Israeli company was the first to develop and install a large-scale
solar-powered and fully functional electricity generating plant, in southern
California's Mojave desert.

All the above while engaged in regular wars with an implacable enemy that
seeks its destruction, and an economy continuously under strain by having to
spend more per capita on its own protection than any other county on earth.

Now, you tell me why Isreal has built an oasis where the rest of the middle east who couldn't hire progress with oil money (that the western world built for them) has had no progress?

Either your article is really dated or completely biased in making false claims:

Cisco first established R&D facilities in India in 1998. An extension of Cisco's global R&D efforts based in San Jose, California, the center has been involved in core product research and development and engineering across Cisco's entire product family. It is the largest development center for the company outside of the United States.

Cisco established operations in India in 1995 and today employs over 1400 people in the country in its Global R&D center in Bangalore and sales offices in New Delhi, Mumbai, Bangalore, Chennai, Kolkatta, Pune, Hyderabad, and Colombo, Sri Lanka.

History of the cell phone

The work at the company's Microsoft Research Center in Cambridge, England, has resulted in at least 65 patents for Microsoft, said Andrew Herbert, managing director.

And neither of my Athlon 64's were built there even if "your" Pentium might have been.

And I'm not really a fan of "per capita" statistics. That's like saying that the Cayman Islands have the largest economy "per capita" because of the small population and the massive amount of US corp. money being sheltered there.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
From Condor-

"Now, you tell me why Isreal has built an oasis where the rest of the middle east who couldn't hire progress with oil money (that the western world built for them) has had no progress? "

Possibly the continuous guilt-trip induced handouts and donations from the Western world, not to mention the ruthless exploitation of the Palestinians, the ultimate disposable workforce...

Try including the Palestinians in those statistics, while you're at it. They live under the rule of the Israeli govt too, despite the attempts to place them in ever-shrinking impoverished apartheid bantustans...
 

maluckey

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2003
2,933
0
71
Try mentioning that the Palestinians blow themselves up in shopping malls, killing no-combatants to show thaty care so much about peace.
 

montag451

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,587
0
0
Just a theory here, hear me out - and don't mean to cause offense....... honest.

I can see similarities between parents who were abused as children, and who now abuse their own children, and
the state of israel, who, obviously the peoples have had history of abuse done to them - now they are doing the abusing.
now it seems the boot is on the other foot so to speak.

From a psychology point of view, why would this happen?
From a moral point of view, why would this happen?


 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,017
62
91
Originally posted by: DVK916
Originally posted by: alchemize
You forgot Turkey, and the newest addition to the club, Afghanistan. Soon Iraq joins the list. Not much, but it's a start.

As long as 1 American soldier is in Iraq or Afghanistan they will never be free.

I guess Germany and Japan are not free then either.
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: TallBill
Originally posted by: DVK916
Originally posted by: alchemize
You forgot Turkey, and the newest addition to the club, Afghanistan. Soon Iraq joins the list. Not much, but it's a start.

As long as 1 American soldier is in Iraq or Afghanistan they will never be free.

I guess Germany and Japan are not free then either.

Difference is, if Japan and Germany told us to totally remove the troops from their land, we would comply. Right now, Iraq telling us to leave would mean nothing.
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,017
62
91
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Difference is, if Japan and Germany told us to totally remove the troops from their land, we would comply. Right now, Iraq telling us to leave would mean nothing.

Heh, no we wouldn't.
 

Meuge

Banned
Nov 27, 2005
2,963
0
0
Originally posted by: ironwing
Five billion dollars a year in US handouts plus an apartheid system supplying cheap Palestinian labor might have something to do with the lifestyle the Israelis enjoy.
You're full of sh!t. Most Israeli food production comes out of the kibbutz system, with very few Palestinian workers to speak of.

And I don't think that with the number of Mexicans working the farms in the U.S., anyone should mention "cheap palestinian labor". I'll guarantee you that the ratio of palestinian farmers to Israeli farmers is far smaller, then the ratio of illegal Mexicans to native-born American farmers here in the U.S.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,821
33,839
136
Originally posted by: Meuge
Originally posted by: ironwing
Five billion dollars a year in US handouts plus an apartheid system supplying cheap Palestinian labor might have something to do with the lifestyle the Israelis enjoy.
You're full of sh!t. Most Israeli food production comes out of the kibbutz system, with very few Palestinian workers to speak of.

And I don't think that with the number of Mexicans working the farms in the U.S., anyone should mention "cheap palestinian labor". I'll guarantee you that the ratio of palestinian farmers to Israeli farmers is far smaller, then the ratio of illegal Mexicans to native-born American farmers here in the U.S.

Boy all those Palestinian workers crossing into the Israeli portion of Israel everyday must just be hanging out eh? Speaking of the kibbutz system, isn't that the system where workers come from around the world to help prop up the Israeli economy by working for very low wages, basically another form of foreign aid?
 

AragornTK

Senior member
Dec 27, 2005
207
0
0
How many wars have been instigated against the Israeli's since the nation's inception? I don't think we should be bitching about helping a country the size of New Jersey, that has been attacked relentlessy by foreign nations and by terrorists.

Should we stop giving aid to all of the countries we help ironwing? or just the ones that don't make the cut in your book?