Why do people like manual transmissions?

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: CFster

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
There are very very few cars in which the automatic transmission is faster than a well driven manual of the same make and model. Your oldsmoboat isn't one of them...assuming you could even get it with a manual transmission.

Tell that to the drag racers.

Drag racers are specially made cars built just to go fast in a straight line for short distances. They aren't very good road going cars and the faster you can get your car to go in the 1/4 mile the worse it is as a daily driver.

I'm talking production cars here (you know, the cars we all drive day in and day out-the kind you can go down to your local car dealership and buy?) and I stand by my statement. There are very very few cars in which the automatic version is faster than a well driven manual.

If these are the kind you drive every day, why does it matter that it's (marginally) faster then?

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Raduque

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Raduque

Originally posted by: freebee
I don't like them. All the people that posted above have never driven a truly powerful auto tranny car. "Control" is not necessary when you have torque. Drive a high horsepower/torque motor with quick shifting auto. ie MB E55 (now E63, etc).
These cars are like space ships. They don't need to downshift to pass, there is no lag or hesitation. There is no "appropriate" gear. Every gear will blow your pants off.

My Oldsmobile was like that. It'd spin the tires in 3rd at 60mph if I stepped on it hard, and it Just Went. God I miss that car. Oh yea, it had a shift kit on the turbo350 "slush" box that'd outshift the best manual driver in this thread.

There are very very few cars in which the automatic transmission is faster than a well driven manual of the same make and model. Your oldsmoboat isn't one of them...assuming you could even get it with a manual transmission.

It could be had with a 4 speed. The very same 4sp that lived behind the Chevelle's big block 396 in '68. And the transmission had been rebuilt with a shift kit to shift as hard and fast as possible under full throttle, and it did it well.

Originally posted by: Sureshot324
But if you get a releltively old car, go with a manual so you don't have to worry about the transmition dying requiring a $2000 rebuild.

Manual trans rebuild on my 1988 Honda Accord was going to be around $1800-2000. Cheapest I could have gotten it was $1600, and that was with the "my friend's friend owns the shop" discount.

Manual transmissions are generally more reliable than autos assuming you know how to drive it. Nobody said they weren't expensive to replace or rebuild. Manual transmissions are very simple so if taken care of (ie. don't grind the gears, ride the clutch etc.) they should last much longer than an automatic. Automatics are very complicated in comparison with all kinds of internal seals that can fail requiring a rebuild.

 

[Aikouka]

I don't know why a thread discussing typical user's transmission preference wavers into big rig (which I highly doubt most users here drive) transmission preferences and the "need" to engine brake. Personally, I use this nifty thing we call "gravity" and it's light-hearted friend "friction" to slow me down sans the brake >_>.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: CFster

Originally posted by: dug777
Indeed.

I've driven on loose gravel with both autos and manuals, and for towing, and indeed any driving the manual felt far more controlled. Not to mention, for hilly country on the gravel i've tried holding autos in the lowest gear they'll let me, and it always seems to be so incredibly tall that it provides no engine braking at all, for any hill descent work on gravel you want to have the engine doing most of the work, and the brakes just to rein it in and provide the finer control.

Will somebody.

Please.

Tell me why they think engine braking is better than using the brakes. Not how if feels to them. I want to know the mechanics of it.

Considering that by downshifting into a given gear you are now putting a set load on the drivetrain because you have a given gear ratio, you have in fact less control than if you simply used the brakes. They are much easier to modulate. That's what they're there for. A lot of people who downshift in the snow don't realize that they've actually lost traction and are actually sliding down a hill. And to make matters worse, if they hit the gas there is an increased chance of spinning the wheels because of that lower gear ratio.

I'm an ASE tech for 20 years and don't understand it. The ONLY situation where I find it necessary is in road racing driving a rear wheel drive car, where while turning into a corner engine braking will in most cases force the nose to tuck into the apex. And really that only happens because either there is a resultant LOSS of traction at the back end that causes the car to rotate or you're already in an understeer situation. If done correctly this is roughly akin to "threshold braking", which is applying the brakes enough to reduce wheel speed to less than what it should be as a result of contact with the pavement, but not a full lockup. The drive wheels haven't fully lost traction.

I believe a lot of people learned to drive with downshifting and just feel comfortable with it. I think that sense of "control" is misguided though. Most haven't mastered fine control with the brake pedal.

You are so far off base in your assumptions it's not even funny. First of all race car drivers downshift before they get to the corner and not mid corner because that would upset the balance of the car.

Driving downhill on long steep grades you put the vehicle in the appropriate gear and leave it there unless you find yourself going too fast in which case you slow down using the brakes and then put the vehicle in a lower gear, one that will keep the vehicle at that speed and you leave it there. If you come up on a turn requiring you to slow down more then you use the brakes for that. Engine braking doesn't lock up the rear wheels or cause a loss of traction if done properly. It is much better to use the engine to keep from riding your brakes. If you've ever experienced brake fade from overheating you'd know this.

As for the snow. I've driven in icy conditions where going downhill the only time my tires had traction was when I was coasting in gear. If I touched the brakes the car would lock all four wheels and start sliding. When I let off the brakes I regained traction.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: b0mbrman

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: CFster

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
There are very very few cars in which the automatic transmission is faster than a well driven manual of the same make and model. Your oldsmoboat isn't one of them...assuming you could even get it with a manual transmission.

Tell that to the drag racers.

Drag racers are specially made cars built just to go fast in a straight line for short distances. They aren't very good road going cars and the faster you can get your car to go in the 1/4 mile the worse it is as a daily driver.

I'm talking production cars here (you know, the cars we all drive day in and day out-the kind you can go down to your local car dealership and buy?) and I stand by my statement. There are very very few cars in which the automatic version is faster than a well driven manual.

If these are the kind you drive every day, why does it matter that it's (marginally) faster then?

There are plenty of cars you can buy that are extremely fast that you can drive everyday and then take to the track on the weekends. Personally, I enjoy driving them everyday too and get a greater pleasure out of driving a stick.

Yeah, it is only (marginally) faster and this is the sort of thing that only really matters to journalists and/or people who enjoy the driving experience and weekend racers. This argument is lost on someone who feels that a car is a conveyance and nothing more.

 

[gerwen]

Originally posted by: CFster
Will somebody.

Please.

Tell me why they think engine braking is better than using the brakes. Not how if feels to them. I want to know the mechanics of it.

Maybe it's not better, except in special cases of course. Like a long steep grade.

Coming out of Death Valley towards Panamint Springs, there is a brutal straight descent. I had so much trouble with my rental overheating on the way up the 5000' pass, i decided not to use engine braking. Big mistake. When i finally stopped (because of the smell) half-way down, there was smoke pouring out of the wheel wells from the poor abused brakes. Wouldn't have been funny if it wasn't a rental. I wonder how long i had before they failed and sent me headlong and brake free down the rest of the slope.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
You are so far off base in your assumptions it's not even funny. First of all race car drivers downshift before they get to the corner and not mid corner because that would upset the balance of the car.

Actually, it looks more like you have no idea what you're talking about. He's right in his claim, but he's not talking about STANDARD DRIVING. Downshifting while in a turn in a way to drift a car. Here's an excerpt from Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drifting_%...sport%29#Techniques_for_inducing_drift
* Shift lock (compression slide) - Initiated by downshifting (usually from third to second or fourth to third, and using a very fast shift) instead of braking, without rev-matching, causing the drive wheels to lock momentarily. Helpful for very tight corners, allowing the driver to approach the corner at a slower speed and lower revs, while allowing quick acceleration when exiting the corner. This technique can be very damaging to the engine if mis-used as the ECU is unable to rev limit when the engine is oversped by the rear wheels. Premature downshifters are called "Rod Stretchers".

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Driving downhill on long steep grades you put the vehicle in the appropriate gear and leave it there unless you find yourself going too fast in which case you slow down using the brakes and then put the vehicle in a lower gear, one that will keep the vehicle at that speed and you leave it there. If you come up on a turn requiring you to slow down more then you use the brakes for that. Engine braking doesn't lock up the rear wheels or cause a loss of traction if done properly. It is much better to use the engine to keep from riding your brakes. If you've ever experienced brake fade from overheating you'd know this.

From what I've read, engine braking is still harder on the engine, albeit probably not enough to cause any problems from long-time use. Personally, I'd rather just replace my pads than worry about any extra engine wear.

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
As for the snow. I've driven in icy conditions where going downhill the only time my tires had traction was when I was coasting in gear. If I touched the brakes the car would lock all four wheels and start sliding. When I let off the brakes I regained traction.

I have absolutely no problem driving on snow with an automatic using standard braking techniques with a lower gear. If you saw the hill I have to go down to even get home and how well maintained Pennsylvania roads are (further from a major city (Harrisburg, Philly or Pittsburg) = worse)... I think you'd understand where I'm coming from.

 

[skace]

It should be noted that a lot of the new cars coming out have that funky hybrid auto that can manually shift if you want to. Of course, you can't run it into the red or rev your engine at stoplights. But if thats all you want out of a manual then you can't go quoting how much cheaper manual is considering you are destroying the thing insanely fast.

It does actually work to make the car less sluggish if that is what you want though.

 

[Raduque]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Raduque

Originally posted by: Sureshot324
But if you get a releltively old car, go with a manual so you don't have to worry about the transmition dying requiring a $2000 rebuild.

Manual trans rebuild on my 1988 Honda Accord was going to be around $1800-2000. Cheapest I could have gotten it was $1600, and that was with the "my friend's friend owns the shop" discount.

Manual transmissions are generally more reliable than autos assuming you know how to drive it. Nobody said they weren't expensive to replace or rebuild. Manual transmissions are very simple so if taken care of (ie. don't grind the gears, ride the clutch etc.) they should last much longer than an automatic. Automatics are very complicated in comparison with all kinds of internal seals that can fail requiring a rebuild.

He said a manual wouldn't require a large amount to rebuild, I'm simply giving an anecdotal that negates his statement.

Oh, and the auto in that generation Accord was basically an automatically-shifted manual. A marvel of engineering, to be sure, but it would've cost about $4500 to rebuild. If I 'd had one of those, I might have just sold the car, I only paid $300 in the first place for it! :Q

 

[LS20]

Actually, it looks like JM has an idea of what he's talking about, and you have no idea what you're talking about, to both referring to wikipedia and also misinterpret its content.

I'm not trying to be witty or personal or anything, but that is the case

... and i tried hard to stay away from this topic ...

Originally posted by: Aikouka

Actually, it looks more like you have no idea what you're talking about. He's right in his claim, but he's not talking about STANDARD DRIVING. Downshifting while in a turn in a way to drift a car. Here's an excerpt from Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drifting_%...sport%29#Techniques_for_inducing_drift
* Shift lock (compression slide) - Initiated by downshifting (usually from third to second or fourth to third, and using a very fast shift) instead of braking, without rev-matching, causing the drive wheels to lock momentarily. Helpful for very tight corners, allowing the driver to approach the corner at a slower speed and lower revs, while allowing quick acceleration when exiting the corner. This technique can be very damaging to the engine if mis-used as the ECU is unable to rev limit when the engine is oversped by the rear wheels. Premature downshifters are called "Rod Stretchers".

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: LS20
Actually, it looks like JM has an idea of what he's talking about, and you have no idea what you're talking about, to both referring to wikipedia and also misinterpret its content.

You come in here saying I'm wrong yet show nothing to prove it? Don't waste my time, oh great and well-knowledged LS20.

Here is yet another description of what it is:

Shift Lock

* This is performed by letting the revs drop on downshift into a corner and then releasing the clutch to put stress on the driveline to slow the rear tires inducing over steer. Can result in an over-rev and engine damage.

From what I read, this is what the other guy was talking about, then JM said that people don't do that in the turn but before the turn (which I'm not saying that people downshifting before a turn never happens!), I am merely saying that there is a purpose for downshifting during the turn.

 

[AMDZen]

For reasons you'll obviously never understand.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Aikouka

Originally posted by: LS20
Actually, it looks like JM has an idea of what he's talking about, and you have no idea what you're talking about, to both referring to wikipedia and also misinterpret its content.

You come in here saying I'm wrong yet show nothing to prove it? Don't waste my time, oh great and well-knowledged LS20.

Here is yet another description of what it is:

Shift Lock

* This is performed by letting the revs drop on downshift into a corner and then releasing the clutch to put stress on the driveline to slow the rear tires inducing over steer. Can result in an over-rev and engine damage.

From what I read, this is what the other guy was talking about, then JM said that people don't do that in the turn but before the turn (which I'm not saying that people downshifting before a turn never happens!), I am merely saying that there is a purpose for downshifting during the turn.

Dude, you're quoting drifting as proof of your point of view? :laugh: Okay, you just lost all credibility. Drifting is so far from real world driving it's not even worth mentioning in a serious thread comparing manual to automatic transmission cars. As for drivetrain longevity, yeah, drifting is probably the worst thing you could do to your car...burnouts and donuts are right up there too though.

Oh, and I didn't say nobody downshifts during a turn. I said that race car drivers don't downshift in the middle of a turn. I personally find myself downshifting prior to turning into a turn and then selecting the proper gear to accelerate out of the turn. I don't generally downshift during a turn unless I find myself in too high a gear or it's a decreasing radius turn and I have to tighten up my line by slowing further.

Changing your oil regularly will do more to prevent engine wear than not downshifting your car ever will. Again, you are concerning yourself with something that is almost immeasurable.

 

[hanoverphist]

Originally posted by: b0mbrman

Originally posted by: Accipiter22
what's the big F'in deal? So you save a mile or two per gallon on gas. Most people here that can afford a nice car with a manual don't need to worry about money. And automatic transmissions are so advanced now that you barely get any extra gas mileage out of them. I know some people think they're funner....but why? You move a stick a few times on a car ride and that makes it funner? Shouldn't you be paying complete attention to the road...I can't think of a single objective reason why ANYONE should or would want to drive a manual instead of an automatic

Control.

If I want to rev to redline, I can do it. If I want to change gears at 1000 RPM, I can do that too.

my old dodge intrepid would redline if i stomped on it, and it would also shift at 1200if i let off the gas for a second. it was one of those auto trans with a "auto stick" thing on it, even tho i never used it. the thing i hated about it was that moment of decision the auto transmissions seem do to now. mebbe its just the regular production cars, but its definitely there in chevy, dodge and fords that ive experienced. my dodge with a manual doesnt share that fallacy. i can also push start it if i accidentally leave my lights on...

i learned to drive in a car witha manual trans. most of my cars were automatics, and the truck i have now (dodge ram1500) is a manual. When i travel for work in a work truck (chevy 2500 with auto trans) i get very tired very fast. when i use my own truck, i dont seem to get that fuzzy zombie feeling.

end product is, i drive a manual because i like tem. no other real reason, just personal preference.

 

[LS20]

Originally posted by: Aikouka
You come in here saying I'm wrong yet show nothing to prove it? Don't waste my time, oh great and well-knowledged LS20.

Here is yet another description of what it is:

Shift Lock

* This is performed by letting the revs drop on downshift into a corner and then releasing the clutch to put stress on the driveline to slow the rear tires inducing over steer. Can result in an over-rev and engine damage.

From what I read, this is what the other guy was talking about, then JM said that people don't do that in the turn but before the turn (which I'm not saying that people downshifting before a turn never happens!), I am merely saying that there is a purpose for downshifting during the turn.

Okay, if goaded, the great and well-acknowledged LS20 will speak:

Race car drivers, and those with intent to speed, complete shifts before the act of turning, so that the car will be in the appropriate gear when they need to accelerate out of the corner. During mid-corners, a car is in a delicate balance at the edge of adhesion, and a poorly performed shift could unsettle the car and initiate a spin/slide.

Drifters want to slide - it's intentionally... so they perform an ill-recommended technique to achieve. (Actually, the more 'proper' technique by 'professional' drifters is to use the handbrake). There is a purpose for fitting a truck with 5' tall tires and jumping it over 1970s junkyard cars but it is all but RELEVANT when discussing the nature of pickup trucks.



with all that aside, i didnt buy my 6sp because it's faster. i bought it because it is more direct. it puts me more in tune with it. and with a machine that cost thousands of dollars, i want to be in as much control of it as possible. i drive a manual because i like it, and i can.