Why do I hate all Blizzard RTS games so much?

Page 5 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

lsv

Golden Member
Dec 18, 2009
1,610
0
71
Massive rage from Blizzard fanboys in 3 2 1

I love how no one mentions the gimped camera that cant even fully rotate and zooms out to a level appropriate for a 1998 game.

I love SC2, it's awesome. Currently got bumped down from Diamond League for being an idiot :)

However I play on a 24" LCD @ 1920x1080 and I do find myself wishing I could zoom back just a tiny bit more. But then I'd be zooming in and out start to end game because during the start I want more up close micro of my gatherers while later on I just spam voidrays or whatever is in :p
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
21,042
3,522
126
allyourbasesbelongtous.

:D

Serious note, i dont approve of the new DRM Bliz is using so i decided to pass on SC2.

Single player should never force u to log onto the internet.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,379
126
I don't think I've had fun with an RTS since Red Alert and Warcraft 2. I don't have the kind of time to play those games anymore though. I did enjoy Diablo II quite a bit, and respect what Blizzard seems to generally bring to the table. I didn't like Starcraft, never played it MP but was bored to tears about 30 minutes into the game SP. I'm happy for the people that like SC2 and are getting good fun for their $ with it, but it's not my stein of beer.
 

lopri

Elite Member
Jul 27, 2002
13,310
687
126
Do you think base building of StarCraft and WarCraft is too much?! Seriously you should have played Age of Empires series. I started my RTS with that franchise, and that game was all about economy. First 10~15 mins you do nothing but farming and mining, and you had to control individual farmers/gathers. Oh and it wasn't simply minerals/gas or gold/wood. You had to gather berries, hunt deer, run farms, mine gold, mine silver, chop lumber, etc. The best part was that the resource gather points were not revealed. You started with complete darkness and you had to "scout" to find food, wood, and other resources to build your town.

When I moved on to WarCraft series I was very pissed how little focus was given to economy, and how quickly actions start occuring. Though eventually I got used to it. I still think WarCraft and StarCraft's resource gathering is a little too simple in that all you have to do is set a rally point.
 
Oct 27, 2007
17,009
5
0
Do you think base building of StarCraft and WarCraft is too much?! Seriously you should have played Age of Empires series. I started my RTS with that franchise, and that game was all about economy. First 10~15 mins you do nothing but farming and mining, and you had to control individual farmers/gathers. Oh and it wasn't simply minerals/gas or gold/wood. You had to gather berries, hunt deer, run farms, mine gold, mine silver, chop lumber, etc. The best part was that the resource gather points were not revealed. You started with complete darkness and you had to "scout" to find food, wood, and other resources to build your town.
Holy fuck that sounds boring.
 

imported_Alx

Junior Member
Apr 27, 2005
16
0
66
I'm not a Bliz fanboy whatsoever (more of a hater really), but I've been enjoying enough SC2 to take issue with the OP.

Micro/clickfest. I played DoW2 for the first month that it was out and I was good at it. It required more click click click micro than SC2 does to be good. I'm averaging 45apm in SC2 and that's good enough for diamond league in all modes. In DoW2 there is no real strategy, you both make a few units and then you dance them around to get the counters working in your favor. One psi storm going off in SC2 is bad to you? How about scout grenades, jet pack stomps and just about every other ability deciding the engagement in DoW2.

I used to think that Relic's simplified economy was the evolution, the next thing in RTS, but in reality it just takes away potential strategies. In SC2 you can decide to gamble for getting less army but some harassment units to try to raid economy with. It's an interesting decision to make that requires both good econ management, build execution and importantly harassment execution.

DoW2 is like a care bear of RTS games. You set up your units, then you realize you just got outmaneuvered and about to get stomped. Press the magic retreat button and all your squads hurry back to the HQ where you can cheaply refill the squads. So what that you lost a control point or two? By far most of your resources come from the unraidable HQ.

And I'm not even getting into the horrible balance swings and game breaking bugs of DoW games. Like game changing abilities not going off while resetting the cooldown, units suddenly taking moronic paths, particular races/unit combos dominating the game for months at a time...



The thing I don't like about SC2 though, is all the cheese. Really stupid all-in plays three minutes into the game that either win or lose outright. I still get caught by these sometimes, and when I beat them there is no sense of accomplishment. In lower leagues this must be even worse, so I can see how an average player might be frustrated by this enough to stop playing.

EDIT: Your 250lb benchpress analogy is true. I don't see how it's any less true for Relic games though. You gotta know the in and out of all units and common build orders (yes these exist in Relic games every bit as much as in Blizzard games) or you'll get shit on without even realizing what's going on.
 
Last edited:

ibex333

Diamond Member
Mar 26, 2005
4,094
123
106
You can rotate the camera 45 to -45 degrees, IIRC. Although, I don't know why you would ever do that. The maps are set up so that the default view is the best, and if you have time to dick around with rotation, as he said, you are doing it wrong.

If I want a simplistic game focusing purely on gameplay and strategy and less on what makes a modern video game what it is, I could go completely barebones and just play chess no? Dont get me wrong, I really dont think games should be about graphics, I still play plenty of old games! Gameplay is off course a lot more important. However they should make the camera rotate becuase they can, not because they have to. IMHO, what separates great games from good games is the extra effort devs put in. It's when little extra details are not necessary at all, but they put that in anyway. It feels like you are getting a free bonus with your game, and that feels good. It is like I already said in the original post, Blizzard apparently thinks they are so flawless that there is really no reason to try any harder. You probably didnt read that part of my post.

Do you think base building of StarCraft and WarCraft is too much?! Seriously you should have played Age of Empires series. I started my RTS with that franchise, and that game was all about economy. First 10~15 mins you do nothing but farming and mining, and you had to control individual farmers/gathers. Oh and it wasn't simply minerals/gas or gold/wood. You had to gather berries, hunt deer, run farms, mine gold, mine silver, chop lumber, etc. The best part was that the resource gather points were not revealed. You started with complete darkness and you had to "scout" to find food, wood, and other resources to build your town.

When I moved on to WarCraft series I was very pissed how little focus was given to economy, and how quickly actions start occuring. Though eventually I got used to it. I still think WarCraft and StarCraft's resource gathering is a little too simple in that all you have to do is set a rally point.

Ahhhh, but you are very wrong. I did play the original Age of Empires, and I loved it. I started playing RTS games even earlier when the originmal Dune and Command and Conquer came out. Good times.... But you clearly missed my original post where I specifically stated that such resource gathering systems were perfectly fine back then, but in this day and age it's time to move on. Yes, it is in fact a personal opinion, and clearly many people diagree, but it's sort of like clinging to Windows XP when you can use Windows 7. One can argue, that WinXP works just fine, so there is no need to upgrade to a newer version. It's really the very fact alone, that Blizzard doesnt feel like "trying" anymore that angers me, more than anything else. For a while, Lexus was producing superior cars to Mecedes becuase Lexus was striving to be better, and Mercedes was jusr reaping the benefits of an age old name... Well, in Mercedese's case, at least they realized the error in their ways and upped their game.


I'm not a Bliz fanboy whatsoever (more of a hater really), but I've been enjoying enough SC2 to take issue with the OP.

Micro/clickfest. I played DoW2 for the first month that it was out and I was good at it. It required more click click click micro than SC2 does to be good. I'm averaging 45apm in SC2 and that's good enough for diamond league in all modes. In DoW2 there is no real strategy, you both make a few units and then you dance them around to get the counters working in your favor. One psi storm going off in SC2 is bad to you? How about scout grenades, jet pack stomps and just about every other ability deciding the engagement in DoW2.

I used to think that Relic's simplified economy was the evolution, the next thing in RTS, but in reality it just takes away potential strategies. In SC2 you can decide to gamble for getting less army but some harassment units to try to raid economy with. It's an interesting decision to make that requires both good econ management, build execution and importantly harassment execution.

DoW2 is like a care bear of RTS games. You set up your units, then you realize you just got outmaneuvered and about to get stomped. Press the magic retreat button and all your squads hurry back to the HQ where you can cheaply refill the squads. So what that you lost a control point or two? By far most of your resources come from the unraidable HQ.

And I'm not even getting into the horrible balance swings and game breaking bugs of DoW games. Like game changing abilities not going off while resetting the cooldown, units suddenly taking moronic paths, particular races/unit combos dominating the game for months at a time...



The thing I don't like about SC2 though, is all the cheese. Really stupid all-in plays three minutes into the game that either win or lose outright. I still get caught by these sometimes, and when I beat them there is no sense of accomplishment. In lower leagues this must be even worse, so I can see how an average player might be frustrated by this enough to stop playing.

EDIT: Your 250lb benchpress analogy is true. I don't see how it's any less true for Relic games though. You gotta know the in and out of all units and common build orders (yes these exist in Relic games every bit as much as in Blizzard games) or you'll get shit on without even realizing what's going on.

Difficult for me to argue with you from your standpoint becuase I never play RTS competitively, at elast not on the same level you do. If I play against other people online, I do it for some short term fun and I never take it too seriously.
Waht I was trying to say originally is that DoW2 is just much more pleasant and easier to get into when it comes to competitive play becuase here, I can at least "control" my units and army. In SC2 everythign happens so fast that I cannot even understand what's going on before it already happens.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2006
11,036
11
91
It's idiotic to claim that Sc2 should have a rotating camera in its normal mode just because they "can". Alot of stuff in Starcraft takes advantage of the fixed camera to do interesting things. I've hidden units for entire games in enemy bases by simply keeping them behind things that mask their presence on the map and minimap.

Anyway, to claim that a ton of love hasn't been put into Sc2 is just baseless. Yes the campaign wasn't amazing, but you can see a layer of polish and love put everywhere.

Finally, DOW2 multiplayer was aggravating. Unis just DO NOT MOVE the way you tell them to. SC2 is all about pinpoint control. You can either let the units duke it out normally, or focus fire on specific units, and you can easily kite back and forth. DOW2 was just struggling to get your units to listen to your commands and get behind a piece of damn cover.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
I don't know if things have changed, but I quit playing RTS long ago because of the miserable AI for individual units. Getting hung up on the scenery while travelling, groups funneling one unit at a time to their death, units that stand there and ignore the guy getting shot next to them. I got tired of babysitting individual units and have since given up on the entire genre.
 

ibex333

Diamond Member
Mar 26, 2005
4,094
123
106
It's idiotic to claim that Sc2 should have a rotating camera in its normal mode just because they "can". Alot of stuff in Starcraft takes advantage of the fixed camera to do interesting things. I've hidden units for entire games in enemy bases by simply keeping them behind things that mask their presence on the map and minimap.

Anyway, to claim that a ton of love hasn't been put into Sc2 is just baseless. Yes the campaign wasn't amazing, but you can see a layer of polish and love put everywhere.

Finally, DOW2 multiplayer was aggravating. Unis just DO NOT MOVE the way you tell them to. SC2 is all about pinpoint control. You can either let the units duke it out normally, or focus fire on specific units, and you can easily kite back and forth. DOW2 was just struggling to get your units to listen to your commands and get behind a piece of damn cover.

And it's not idiotic to be playing an outdated game with outdated mechanics that allow you to do lame stuff like this purely because you are exploiting these outdated mechanics?! It's specifically because people like you are able to do stuff like that that rotating camera should be introduced. Besides, since you like depth so much, this would definiteliy add to the depth... ; ) What you are basically saying is, "NO! PLEASE KEEP THE GAME THE WAY IT IS, BECAUSE I FOUND A WAY TO EXPLOIT IT AND IT ALLOWS ME TO WIN!"

Baseless to say a lot of love hasnt been put into this game? To say that the campaign wasnt amazing is "not doing it justice". It was plain mediocre!

Units move just fine for me in DOW, however in SC2 they get stuck on each other. This was supposed to be an issue left in the 90's, but clearly because this game is "old" at it's core, the issue persists.
 

Dumac

Diamond Member
Dec 31, 2005
9,391
1
0
And it's not idiotic to be playing an outdated game with outdated mechanics that allow you to do lame stuff like this purely because you are exploiting these outdated mechanics?! It's specifically because people like you are able to do stuff like that that rotating camera should be introduced. Besides, since you like depth so much, this would definiteliy add to the depth... ; ) What you are basically saying is, "NO! PLEASE KEEP THE GAME THE WAY IT IS, BECAUSE I FOUND A WAY TO EXPLOIT IT AND IT ALLOWS ME TO WIN!"

IT ISN'T AND OUTDATED MECHANIC

Rotation is a silly feature that doesn't mark a "modern" game. It adds nothing, and it is just plain silly to keep going on about it for so long. It's like complaining that starcraft let you watch ESPN while playing. It's a useless addition that doesn't matter, which you are desperately clinging to and touting just to say that SC2 can't do something.

Baseless to say a lot of love hasnt been put into this game? To say that the campaign wasnt amazing is "not doing it justice". It was plain mediocre!

SC2 had the best modern RTS campaign I've played, and I've pretty much played them all. The mission variety was also very nice.

Units move just fine for me in DOW, however in SC2 they get stuck on each other. This was supposed to be an issue left in the 90's, but clearly because this game is "old" at it's core, the issue persists.

Units move nearly flawlessly in SC2. They only get stuck if you give them an impossible move command, which is your fault for giving them a command they can't accomplish. Can't same thing for DoW.
 

Taejin

Moderator<br>Love & Relationships
Aug 29, 2004
3,270
0
0
This is what I like about Sins of a Solar Empire--you can be a pro and even an elite player without having to have a 300 ACPM (average clicks per minute). A mere 30 APM will suffice.

I know the SC2 detractors are mostly low level scrubs who can't or haven't played the game but its not ACPM, its just APM. Anyone who is clicking a lot in SC2 is never going to be better than average as a player.
 

Taejin

Moderator<br>Love & Relationships
Aug 29, 2004
3,270
0
0
The reason why I don't like blizzard RTS's as much is because they generally focus on small groups of expensive units. The loss of every unit is painful, and it is extremely difficult to come back from behind.

My favorite RTS of all time is Rise of Nations. It was primarily a macro game, however the combat was really fun because it had simple unit counters, auto-formations, easy to execute tactics like flanking, and it actually penalized you if you tried to micro (units did less total damage when they focus fire).

Starcraft is like chess, requiring a strictly defined strategy and any foul-ups essentially cost you the game immediately. RoN is more like Go where the overall strategy is more important then individual battles.

Another poster who doesn't know what they're talking about. So much fucking fail in this thread. Stop trying to take apart a game because of your lack of ability in it. You idiots have to understand the very nature of your inability to play the game at a decent level precludes you from even commenting on it, because insights into the game are only gained at playing at higher levels.
 

Taejin

Moderator<br>Love & Relationships
Aug 29, 2004
3,270
0
0
I meant "pro" in a relative sense. It should have been clear from the context. What I meant was, "You can be a very good player relative to the other players if not one of the best players without having to click 300 times per minute." My main point is that the game isn't as clickfest heavy as other RTS games. It would certainly help to be a fast clicker since you could micromanage abilities on some ships but you can do just fine without it.

if you can be good as everyone else while not having to do very much then its not much of a game, is it?
 

gorcorps

aka Brandon
Jul 18, 2004
30,739
454
126
I don't really care for them either, bit I'm not enough of a jackass to blame the game. Every game isn't supposed to appeal to every person. Starcraft is by far the most popular RTS worldwide, so they're doing something right. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean the game sucks...

In summary: get the fuck over yourself you jack-wagon
 

Pia

Golden Member
Feb 28, 2008
1,563
0
0
if you can be good as everyone else while not having to do very much then its not much of a game, is it?
What he said was "You can be a very good player relative to the other players if not one of the best players without having to click 300 times per minute.". You seem to be arguing that the only thing there is to do, and the only thing which can possibly differentiate players of varying skill levels, is fast clicking. In a strategy game.

I can't quite tell if you are trolling, or just retarded.

A high class player can totally dominate in speed chess without high APM. Is it "not much of a game"?
 

evident

Lifer
Apr 5, 2005
12,116
733
126
if you can be good as everyone else while not having to do very much then its not much of a game, is it?


which is why i hate almost every FPS out there now. i'ts been dumbed down to a camp and spam fest (see COD4)
 

simonizor

Golden Member
Feb 8, 2010
1,312
0
0
I've never really been good at the actual RTS parts of Blizzard's games. The custom maps are much more fun. They've put a pretty powerful map editor in most of their RTS games that allows you to take the game and warp it into something else. A good example would be DOTA in Warcraft III. There are tons of possibilities and many fun custom maps out there.
 

Murloc

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2008
5,382
65
91
I think OP never played age of empires 2 if he complains about SCVs.
I agree that blizzard RTSes are a lot about micromanagement, but of soldiers.
In age of empires 2 the economy is at the center of your attention instead.

If you don't like it fast and intensive, you're not made for economic FPSes.
That's fine, to each their own.
 

Taejin

Moderator<br>Love & Relationships
Aug 29, 2004
3,270
0
0
What he said was "You can be a very good player relative to the other players if not one of the best players without having to click 300 times per minute.". You seem to be arguing that the only thing there is to do, and the only thing which can possibly differentiate players of varying skill levels, is fast clicking. In a strategy game.

I can't quite tell if you are trolling, or just retarded.

A high class player can totally dominate in speed chess without high APM. Is it "not much of a game"?

sorry buddy, the mechanisms underlying chess are way more complex than starcraft. games in high-level starcraft are won by being able to out-tax your opponents' concentration/dexterity reserves, while games in chess are truly only fought in the mind. analogy fail?