Why do colleges hand out so many degrees?

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer
There seems to be some misunderstanding about what "basic tools" are. Universities teach what they always have taught, that is, how to learn.

The basic tools are the math, problem solving and, functioning under perceived pressure. The more academically intensive fields, engineering, medicine and, the law drastically increase the perceived pressure to try and overcome merely understanding the basics as opposed to mastering them.

While there are a few blessed/cursed with eidetic memory, I challenge anyone else to remember specifics outside of the afore mentioned 'basics' that are not only needed but required by prospective employers.

Again, you are talking about something you know nothing about.

I remember numerous accounting/economics/finance/strategic mgmt/ecommerce/entrepreneurial concepts/principals from school and use them daily for work.

Sigh. We're talking about the same thing. Problem solving (also referred to as the scientific method) doesn't exist in a vacuum. You don't reinvent the wheel every time you have a new problem. It is necessary in many fields to have a working knowledge of what has gone before but, knowledge of what the original wheel was built from is not.

One of the most critical and least required specific knowledge in all fields is ethics. While some schools have begun to address this need, they concentrate only on minimizing the potential financial risk to an organization rather than a tool to build better management.

No, we are not. I'm talking about specific concepts/principals that one learns in specialized major specific classes. If you don't know specific accounting rules/theory/concepts/principals, you will be useless in a corporate/public accounting setting. Same goes for engineering, medical, etc. fields.

This is what you posted earlier:

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer
Winnar! The folks who think specific knowledge taught in a university beyond the basic tools is important to employers, regardless of profession, are only deceiving themselves and yes, that includes engineers and doctors.

So, if I specialize in neurology/oncology/anesthesiology, none of that specific knowledge taught to me will be important to an employer?

 

[TecHNooB]

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer
There seems to be some misunderstanding about what "basic tools" are. Universities teach what they always have taught, that is, how to learn.

The basic tools are the math, problem solving and, functioning under perceived pressure. The more academically intensive fields, engineering, medicine and, the law drastically increase the perceived pressure to try and overcome merely understanding the basics as opposed to mastering them.

While there are a few blessed/cursed with eidetic memory, I challenge anyone else to remember specifics outside of the afore mentioned 'basics' that are not only needed but required by prospective employers.

QFT

 

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: markgm
I've never been asked for proof of my diploma by any job I worked at, let alone my GPA.

Numerous companies use agencies/services that will run background checks on you to verify your information.

 

[Toastedlightly]

ITT: Butthurt people who didn't pursue a job in their degree's field.

 

[Capt Caveman]

nvm

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer
There seems to be some misunderstanding about what "basic tools" are. Universities teach what they always have taught, that is, how to learn.

The basic tools are the math, problem solving and, functioning under perceived pressure. The more academically intensive fields, engineering, medicine and, the law drastically increase the perceived pressure to try and overcome merely understanding the basics as opposed to mastering them.

While there are a few blessed/cursed with eidetic memory, I challenge anyone else to remember specifics outside of the afore mentioned 'basics' that are not only needed but required by prospective employers.

Again, you are talking about something you know nothing about.

I remember numerous accounting/economics/finance/strategic mgmt/ecommerce/entrepreneurial concepts/principals from school and use them daily for work.

Sigh. We're talking about the same thing. Problem solving (also referred to as the scientific method) doesn't exist in a vacuum. You don't reinvent the wheel every time you have a new problem. It is necessary in many fields to have a working knowledge of what has gone before but, knowledge of what the original wheel was built from is not.

One of the most critical and least required specific knowledge in all fields is ethics. While some schools have begun to address this need, they concentrate only on minimizing the potential financial risk to an organization rather than a tool to build better management.

No, we are not. I'm talking about specific concepts/principals that one learns in specialized major specific classes. If you don't know specific accounting rules/theory/concepts/principals, you will be useless in a corporate/public accounting setting. Same goes for engineering, medical, etc. fields.

This is what you posted earlier:

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer
Winnar! The folks who think specific knowledge taught in a university beyond the basic tools is important to employers, regardless of profession, are only deceiving themselves and yes, that includes engineers and doctors.

Which is why I call it problem solving instead of the scientific method. Do you really think the principles of the scientific method only apply to science? Does your employer care or require that you know who discovered a particular method or, just how to use it? I'm sorry if 'problem solving' is too broad a term as my intent was to simplify not obfuscate.

 

[Toastedlightly]

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer
There seems to be some misunderstanding about what "basic tools" are. Universities teach what they always have taught, that is, how to learn.

The basic tools are the math, problem solving and, functioning under perceived pressure. The more academically intensive fields, engineering, medicine and, the law drastically increase the perceived pressure to try and overcome merely understanding the basics as opposed to mastering them.

While there are a few blessed/cursed with eidetic memory, I challenge anyone else to remember specifics outside of the afore mentioned 'basics' that are not only needed but required by prospective employers.

Again, you are talking about something you know nothing about.

I remember numerous accounting/economics/finance/strategic mgmt/ecommerce/entrepreneurial concepts/principals from school and use them daily for work.

Sigh. We're talking about the same thing. Problem solving (also referred to as the scientific method) doesn't exist in a vacuum. You don't reinvent the wheel every time you have a new problem. It is necessary in many fields to have a working knowledge of what has gone before but, knowledge of what the original wheel was built from is not.

One of the most critical and least required specific knowledge in all fields is ethics. While some schools have begun to address this need, they concentrate only on minimizing the potential financial risk to an organization rather than a tool to build better management.

No, we are not. I'm talking about specific concepts/principals that one learns in specialized major specific classes. If you don't know specific accounting rules/theory/concepts/principals, you will be useless in a corporate/public accounting setting. Same goes for engineering, medical, etc. fields.

This is what you posted earlier:

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer
Winnar! The folks who think specific knowledge taught in a university beyond the basic tools is important to employers, regardless of profession, are only deceiving themselves and yes, that includes engineers and doctors.

Which is why I call it problem solving instead of the scientific method. Do you really think the principles of the scientific method only apply to science? Does your employer care or require that you know who discovered a particular method or, just how to use it? I'm sorry if 'problem solving' is too broad a term as my intent was to simplify not obfuscate.

You aren't answering to the bold statement that you were quoted saying. You keep saying that problem solving skills are important. Yes, they are, but the tools are also important. As I said in my post, I definitely need to know more than just problem solving in order to be an engineer. I have to know the underlying concepts to my profession, as well as the specifics of my specific field (which are built on the large assortment of the 'basics' that I learn).

 

[BoomerD]

The OP asked the wrong question...

Why do colleges admit so many students in the first place?

Reduce the number of students...reduce the number of degrees available.

OR

Make getting the degree a competitive sport. Highest GPA's win the degree. Everyone else has to go to work for the winners.

 

[TecHNooB]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
The OP asked the wrong question...

Why do colleges admit so many students in the first place?

Reduce the number of students...reduce the number of degrees available.

OR

Make getting the degree a competitive sport. Highest GPA's win the degree. Everyone else has to go to work for the winners.

The answer to the first part is obviously money, but I am in favor of the second part

 

[BoomerD]

The next question is:
"Why do we allow foreign students to attend our schools, especially those that receive government funding, such as the UC or CSU system?"

Why should we educate people who will take that education back to their country and improve things there? Let's keep the Amercan Education system for Americans!!













(check your batteries folks!)

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim
2 types of people make money in this world.

1) entrepreneurs

2) people with deeply specialized advanced degrees

GPA isn't even in the equation everyone else falls into "average" at the end of the day.

#2 isn't even true in general. I would wager that theoretical physicists, and many science PhDs in general, are not among the wealthiest people in the world, despite having a deeply specialized advanced degree.

Heck #1 isn't even true in general. Don't something like 90% of all businesses fail within the first 10 years?

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: looker001

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: Toastedlightly

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Originally posted by: ArmchairAthlete
Because we have this culture today that says everyone should go to college, when really many should not. And they'd be better served just entering the work force or learning some trade than being saddled with debt (even with a degree in something they aren't passionate about).

Winnar! The folks who think specific knowledge taught in a university beyond the basic tools is important to employers, regardless of profession, are only deceiving themselves and yes, that includes engineers and doctors.

as an engineer, I also agree that is the only answer to this moran.

Agreed, quite a bit of what I learned in my engineering classes is relevant to my career as an engineer.

How much do you actualy recal?

Obviously the extent to which I can easily recall the material is related to how often I use it. If I can't recall it immediately, then I can just look it up in a book or my notes.

The point is that a lot of what I learned in school is applicable to my job.

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: TecHNooB
Why do kids with 2.0 GPAs get degrees? Doesn't this hurt us in the long run? Why is the college curve so damn generous?

The 2.0 GPA isn't the problem. It's the ease with which one can get a 2.0 GPA that is the problem. That should be average. We should be putting a lot more students below the 2.0 GPA mark.

And yes, this does hurt us in the long run. And it is the reason that a Bachelor's degree today is worth no more than a high school diploma was worth 30 years ago.

For whatever reason, colleges make it very difficult to outright fail large numbers of students if they are unable to do the coursework. And high schools are even worse, where keeping a student for a 5th year is practically impossible.

 

[CRXican]

Originally posted by: Eeezee

Originally posted by: TecHNooB
Why do kids with 2.0 GPAs get degrees? Doesn't this hurt us in the long run? Why is the college curve so damn generous?

The 2.0 GPA isn't the problem. It's the ease with which one can get a 2.0 GPA that is the problem. That should be average. We should be putting a lot more students below the 2.0 GPA mark.

And yes, this does hurt us in the long run. And it is the reason that a Bachelor's degree today is worth no more than a high school diploma was worth 30 years ago.

For whatever reason, colleges make it very difficult to outright fail large numbers of students if they are unable to do the coursework. And high schools are even worse, where keeping a student for a 5th year is practically impossible.

I agree. I worked pretty hard in college but was surprised at the number of As I received. There were really only a handfull of classes that truly gave me a difficult time and where I did not receive an A. Lowest grade was a C+ I believe.

Then there were the idiots who put in such a minimal effort it annoyed me because the would try and mooch of the hard workers. Somehow most of them managed to pass when they truly deserved to fail. Some of them were such a waste of space I felt bad for the students who couldn't add the class due to huge enrollment numbers.

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: looker001

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: Toastedlightly

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Originally posted by: ArmchairAthlete
Because we have this culture today that says everyone should go to college, when really many should not. And they'd be better served just entering the work force or learning some trade than being saddled with debt (even with a degree in something they aren't passionate about).

Winnar! The folks who think specific knowledge taught in a university beyond the basic tools is important to employers, regardless of profession, are only deceiving themselves and yes, that includes engineers and doctors.

as an engineer, I also agree that is the only answer to this moran.

Agreed, quite a bit of what I learned in my engineering classes is relevant to my career as an engineer.

How much do you actualy recal?

As a physicist, I can recall at least around 80% of the tools that I learned in college.

I had a friend applying for a job with an investment banking firm that was looking for Physics PhDs (econophysicists do a better job than finance majors). They called him and asked him to do a few Taylor expansions, a fundamental physics tool used by physicists everywhere. He was on the spot and wasn't able to perform. He didn't get the job. This was a skill that he would definitely be using as part of his job (along with a lot of computer programming, most likely).

I'm working on the LHC, the supercollider in Geneva. I use the tools that I learned in college at my job.

MagnusTheBrewer is an idiot

 

[Deeko]

This is what's wrong with the GPA system. You are whining about a 2.0 GPA? That's a C average! That's SUPPOSED to be the average grade!

Colleges "hand out degrees" because people are earning them, simple as that.

 

[nerp]

Originally posted by: manlymatt83

Originally posted by: RaistlinZ
Work experience + general common sense > degree

oh, and this

Except places where you wouldn't get an interview. Doesn't matter how much experince you have if you're still just a high school graduate.

 

[nerp]

Originally posted by: AccruedExpenditure
GPA doesn't matter, lol.

You're arguing with college kids. Of course they think the GPA should be on the resume. ahaha.

 

[nerp]

Originally posted by: ArmchairAthlete
You guys saying GPA isn't important are pretty funny. If you look at our school's job board at least for CS jobs, the majority have a GPA requirement. In interviews, they look at the GPA and maybe talk about it.

Haha.. On your college JOB BOARD maybe. Of course, companies recruiting newbies straight from career services have a GPA benchmark. But if you're a professonal in your 30s and you're slapping your GPA from college on your resume, you're just going to look stupid.

 

[Toastedlightly]

Originally posted by: nerp

Originally posted by: ArmchairAthlete
You guys saying GPA isn't important are pretty funny. If you look at our school's job board at least for CS jobs, the majority have a GPA requirement. In interviews, they look at the GPA and maybe talk about it.

Haha.. On your college JOB BOARD maybe. Of course, companies recruiting newbies straight from career services have a GPA benchmark. But if you're a professonal in your 30s and you're slapping your GPA from college on your resume, you're just going to look stupid.

So, GPA is important for those still in school, correct? Above this you laugh at the claim that college 'kids' should put their GPA on the resume. Hmm.

 

[Bignate603]

Originally posted by: spidey07
Because they are giving the Uni money and because GPA doesn't matter in the real world?

Think about it for a bit. Just think.

I knew a guy with a 2.0 GPA, same degree program I was in. Nobody would give him an interview. It seemed to matter a little bit. As time goes on it will matter less, but having to settle for a crappy first job can slow how fast he moves up in salary.

 

[josh0099]

Originally posted by: Toastedlightly

Originally posted by: nerp

Originally posted by: ArmchairAthlete
You guys saying GPA isn't important are pretty funny. If you look at our school's job board at least for CS jobs, the majority have a GPA requirement. In interviews, they look at the GPA and maybe talk about it.

Haha.. On your college JOB BOARD maybe. Of course, companies recruiting newbies straight from career services have a GPA benchmark. But if you're a professonal in your 30s and you're slapping your GPA from college on your resume, you're just going to look stupid.

So, GPA is important for those still in school, correct? Above this you laugh at the claim that college 'kids' should put their GPA on the resume. Hmm.

GPA isn't as important as many wish to believe in most cases if you heading for a top company within a field its important as they have GPA requirements, but most jobs just want the degree when it really comes down to it.

My list as to what is important:

1.) Connections (Doesn't matter if you have a 4.0 or all the job experience in the world if someone has better connections they will kick your ass)

2.) Internships etc...

3.) A good personality

4.) GPA

 

[TecHNooB]

Originally posted by: josh0099

Originally posted by: Toastedlightly

Originally posted by: nerp

Originally posted by: ArmchairAthlete
You guys saying GPA isn't important are pretty funny. If you look at our school's job board at least for CS jobs, the majority have a GPA requirement. In interviews, they look at the GPA and maybe talk about it.

Haha.. On your college JOB BOARD maybe. Of course, companies recruiting newbies straight from career services have a GPA benchmark. But if you're a professonal in your 30s and you're slapping your GPA from college on your resume, you're just going to look stupid.

So, GPA is important for those still in school, correct? Above this you laugh at the claim that college 'kids' should put their GPA on the resume. Hmm.

GPA isn't as important as many wish to believe in most cases if you heading for a top company within a field its important as they have GPA requirements, but most jobs just want the degree when it really comes down to it.

My list as to what is important:

1.) Connections (Doesn't matter if you have a 4.0 or all the job experience in the world if someone has better connections they will kick your ass)

2.) Internships etc...

3.) A good personality

4.) GPA

Of that list, the only 2 things you can really depend on are GPA and Internships. The rest is a cointoss and completely subjective.

 

[Mo0o]

GPA is pretty important when you're looking for that first job for a variety of fields. Not to mention a lot of college students pursue graduate level studies which definitely looks at GPAs

 

[skim milk]

GPA is important

you don't need a 4.0 GPA, but you should graduate with at least a 3.0

Most entry level jobs that are somewhat selective have a GPA requirement. The entry level job you start at is important because it serves as a stepping stone into bigger and better options in the future.

Plus, if you intend to pursue selective graduate level studies or a professional program, 3.0 is the minimum