Why cant ships fire when cloaked?

[Jeff7]

...
For those interested, somebody made a complete starship database.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/starship_database.htm
...

Dammit, I think I'm going to spend way too much time there.

 

[dud]

Klingons/Romulans

i can *maybe* buy that they cant fire phasers when cloaked because the cloak takes up a huge amount of power.

but why cant they fire topedos?

It's not real ... it's a TV show.

 

[ViRGE]

So Photon Torpedos are made out of Photons?

Actually it's a matter-antimatter warhead. I have no idea why it's called a "photon" torpedo.

 

[Ichinisan]

Actually it's a matter-antimatter warhead. I have no idea why it's called a "photon" torpedo.

Because it sounds sci-fi-ey.

 

[mmntech]

Some other Sci-fi material goes into some more details. According to Star Wars, cloaking fields are double-blind. They absorb sensor pulses and bend light around the ship. It's like throwing up a wall. Your enemy can't see you, but you can't see them either. Also, if using the FTL drive and a cloaking device at the same time, the main reactor can overload and explode.

 

[Imp]

You people call yourself nerds? I'm ashamed...

Undiscovered Country: Klingon Bird of Prey could fire when cloaked quite effectively. Kirk couldn't do anything until they reconfigured a torpedo to home in on the exhaust of a ship.

Star Trek TNG: Some episode where they find an experimental, mutinous Federation ship that rematerialized inside an astroid. It could cloak, and pass through matter, so I'm assuming that thing could fire. In that episode, they said something about setting up a treaty between the Romulans and Federation to prevent further research on such cloaking technology in the past; this ship violated tha treaty.

Nemesis: No one watched this, huh? The Scimitar, huge Romulan (?) slave people ship. Could fire when cloaked, but the Enterprise and other Romulan ships used sweeping phaser fire (spray and pray) to pin point the location of the ship.

 

[Jeff7]

Actually it's a matter-antimatter warhead. I have no idea why it's called a "photon" torpedo.

Photon-based forcefields are used to keep the matter and antimatter separated.

 

[Ichinisan]

You people call yourself nerds? I'm ashamed...

Undiscovered Country: Klingon Bird of Prey could fire when cloaked quite effectively. Kirk couldn't do anything until they reconfigured a torpedo to home in on the exhaust of a ship.

Star Trek TNG: Some episode where they find an experimental, mutinous Federation ship that rematerialized inside an astroid. It could cloak, and pass through matter, so I'm assuming that thing could fire. In that episode, they said something about setting up a treaty between the Romulans and Federation to prevent further research on such cloaking technology in the past; this ship violated tha treaty.

Nemesis: No one watched this, huh? The Scimitar, huge Romulan (?) slave people ship. Could fire when cloaked, but the Enterprise and other Romulan ships used sweeping phaser fire (spray and pray) to pin point the location of the ship.

They always point out that cloaked ships shouldn't be able to.

Two plot devices:
"Can't fire when cloaked."
"OMG! A ship that can fire while cloaked!"

 

[techs]

They always point out that cloaked ships shouldn't be able to.

Two plot devices:
"Can't fire when cloaked."
"OMG! A ship that can fire while cloaked!"

A wormhole can only be maintained for 38 minutes.

OMG a wormhole can be maintained indefinitley.


hmmm?

 

[rcpratt]

It would be overpowered.

 

[Train]

Why didn't the birds just fly them into Mordor in the first place?

 

[Rubycon]

So Photon Torpedos are made out of Photons?

Only if cooled with a differential thyristor variator with autoquenching getters.

 

[KLin]

To be or not to be...

Cry Havoc! and let slip the dogs of war!

 

[her209]

Why didn't the birds just fly them into Mordor in the first place?

The eagles you mean?

 

[sourceninja]

Actually it's a matter-antimatter warhead. I have no idea why it's called a "photon" torpedo.

Same reason we call our weapons tigers, ninjas, etc.

It sounds cool.

 

[TwiceOver]

I thought it had something to do with a treaty, or maybe that was just the episode with passing through matter.

 

[techs]

To be or not to be...

Sorry, incorrect.

TaH pagh taHbe

You have not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the original Klingon. :biggrin:

 

[sourceninja]

Isn't it funny that firing while cloaked is experimental in kirks and picards time? You would think science would go faster in the future!

 

[techs]

Isn't it funny that firing while cloaked is experimental in kirks and picards time? You would think science would go faster in the future!

It was an experiment that failed. See my previous post on how limited the firing when cloaked really was.

 

[her209]

Isn't it funny that firing while cloaked is experimental in kirks and picards time? You would think science would go faster in the future!

Its kind of live leveling up in a game. Each successive step requires more and more points.

 

[SunnyD]

It's already been said.

- The power requirements basically take most of the energy output a ship can make to run it.

- Second, you need active sensors to provide weapons guidance. Part of running a cloaking device is similar to how submarines run - as silently and passively as possible. Any energy emissions by the ship even while cloaked will give it away, making it a sitting duck.

- Third, no shields. See #1 & #2. Shields are high output energy devices, which will give the ship away in seconds. Do you REALLY want to go into battle without shields where one torpedo will scuttle the entire ship?

There are a few technologies that have been developed to overcome SOME of these shortcomings, but most were far advanced and very late in the timeline. For example, in The Undiscovered Country, the Klingon ship was able to fire while cloaked, but had no shields (one torpedo killed it). In Nemesis, well, the Scimitar was a massive ship, easily 10 times the size of the enterprise. It could very well have enough power generation (and likely had to have) to be able to effectively cloak its energy signature even while running full shields.

 

[PlasmaBomb]

Ships can fire when cloaked. They just choose not to.

In early cloaked ships it was impossible to fire at all when cloaked, as the build up and discharge of energy by phasers, disrupters, etc would explode the cloaking generator because they couldn't handle the rapid change to the ships energy level.

Later models of cloaked ships could fire, as they improved the cloaks buffers and the ships power regulation.

The reason ships don't fire when cloaked is that they can't fire with any effect when cloaked. Photon and quantum torpedo's are not guided, they are aimed and travel at great speed.

When a torpedo passes thru the cloak it is deflected a small amount, a random amount. At the distances its safe to fire torpedoes at they wouldn't hit anything. Cloaked ships also can't get closed enough to a target to ensure a hit without being destroyed by blast. Phasers and disrupters are also deflected, making a hit unlikely.

Doctor Timicin of Kaelon II modified the guidance system of Starfleet photon torpedoes. Those modified torpedoes would enable him to implement his theory of helium fusion enhancement and possibly revitalize the Kaelon sun. (TNG: "Half a Life")

In the Undiscovered Country the Klingons used a prototype to fire when cloaked.
However, when you see the torpedo leaving the ship you see the ship is momentariy visible. That's because the prototype was specifically designed only for firing when cloaked. Things like life support could be turned off or powered way down and were only powered by batteries. By limiting most systems on the ship, and designing them for the lowest possible power output, it was possible to re-establish the cloak very quickly after a torpedo was fired The ship was worthless in a space battle, it could only lay in wait for the enemy to come into range. They could, in fact, only travel at a very low impulse, and warp factor even when the cloak was disengaged.

Fortunately, the Federation took measures to counter act this kind of ship in the future. And educated its officers and men not to say a cloaked ship can't fire, but can't effectively fire.

In 2293, Spock and McCoy modified a photon torpedo to follow the trail of ionized gas from Chang's Bird-of-Prey at Uhura's suggestion. This exposed the cloaked Bird-of-Prey and allowed its destruction by the USS Enterprise-A and the USS Excelsior. (Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country)

I always thought that photon torpedos had some form of guidance...

 

[PlasmaBomb]

Why can't you just cloak the torpedos

OMG ... you bastard! You spoiled it all because you are thinking too much.

And, wtf, what is wrong with a particle beam or torpedo emerging from nothing? And keep moving?

This is all about game-like restrictions and nothing practical ... as if there is something practical to the whole thread.

Nah... you just have to say that there isn't enough space/power in a torpedo to cloak them.

Granted you could make super large torpedos... but you would still see the power build up in the ship firing them.

 

[yllus]

Why didn't the birds just fly them into Mordor in the first place?

Oh come on, you think that Sauron wouldn't have set up anti-eagle artillery to counter that threat? And the eagles simply didn't have guidance systems good enough to skim the Earth and duck underneath the radar.

 

[techs]

In 2293, Spock and McCoy modified a photon torpedo to follow the trail of ionized gas from Chang's Bird-of-Prey at Uhura's suggestion. This exposed the cloaked Bird-of-Prey and allowed its destruction by the USS Enterprise-A and the USS Excelsior. (Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country)

I always thought that photon torpedos had some form of guidance...

No, they modified the torpedo to run like a missile which enabled it to change course and follow the trail of emissions given off by the bird of prey. The bird of prey had to keep almost stationary to keep its engine emissions from revealing its location. Plus the warhead did not have to be as powerful as a photon or quantum torpedo since the Klingon ship was cloaked and had no shields.