Why cant ships fire when cloaked?

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PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
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Well, a few ships could do it. The reason usually given for why they normally can't is because it takes too much power. It is also conceivable that it would give away the position of this ship, rendering the cloak moot.

The last point could be partially mitigated by taking evasive maneuvers immediately after firing. They would still know the vicinity of where you were but if you changed direction and speed they would probably miss unless they fired some kind of shotgun spread.

Nemesis (yes, not the best) had a ship firing while cloaked. Its only ill effected seemed to be giving away their position.
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
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I thought it had something to do with a treaty, or maybe that was just the episode with passing through matter.

I think that was just the passing through matter thing. I'd imagine a "no firing while cloaked" treaty would be gotten around easily by destroying the ship while cloaked so that no one was left to scream "cheater!"
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
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I always thought that photon torpedos had some form of guidance...

You'd think so, but some how they seem to miss uncloaked ships all the time. Maybe they can't change direction very fast at their speed. Meh.

Partially alleviated in the new star trek movies, but I always wondered why they didn't just shoot the incoming torpedoes out of the 'air' with phasers. Or better yet, blast them right after they came out of the tube so they blew up next to the enemy ship.
 

SunnyD

Belgian Waffler
Jan 2, 2001
32,675
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www.neftastic.com
Nah... you just have to say that there isn't enough space/power in a torpedo to cloak them.

Granted you could make super large torpedos... but you would still see the power build up in the ship firing them.

Mmm... dreams of Wing Commander 2... stealth "skip" missiles & the death of the TCS Tiger Claw.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
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You'd think so, but some how they seem to miss uncloaked ships all the time. Maybe they can't change direction very fast at their speed. Meh.

Partially alleviated in the new star trek movies, but I always wondered why they didn't just shoot the incoming torpedoes out of the 'air' with phasers. Or better yet, blast them right after they came out of the tube so they blew up next to the enemy ship.
Somehow in these shows, it's possible to easily miss targets several feet away, and I believe the phaser rifles have some kind of targeting and aiming system built-in.
(Then there's the wide-beam setting on phasers, which I think they only used once.)

Other random thoughts:
Then you've got the "brilliant" idea of what amounted to a heat-seeking missile in ST6. Why this isn't used more often, or why it wasn't thought of before then...only the writers know.

For firing while cloaked: Use missiles. You don't need any additional power, except perhaps to open a door covering the missile launch tubes.

Multiple power cores: Defiant has a triple-thinged warp core, so that can be done - power the cloak, and power something else.

Finding a ship that's cloaked: Short bursts all over the place, similar to what was done in Nemesis. Enterprise has a lot of phaser banks. Set up a handy little keyboard macro, and start firing short low-intensity phaser bursts all around the ship. As soon as one hits something cloaked, it should be quite easy to keep a lock on it and hammer away at full blast.


So yeah, the "no-firing-while-cloaked" looks like a big plot device, with a lot of simple and unused workarounds, and nothing more. They need an engineer or two on their writing staff, to get some of this sort of thinking. (Or maybe just a few true nerds.) :p
And think of the savings on special effects budgets. Two cloaked ships, fighting each other using cloaked missiles. Doesn't get much cheaper than that.



It's already been said.

- The power requirements basically take most of the energy output a ship can make to run it.

- Second, you need active sensors to provide weapons guidance. Part of running a cloaking device is similar to how submarines run - as silently and passively as possible. Any energy emissions by the ship even while cloaked will give it away, making it a sitting duck.
The missile solution would be able to take care of these problems. It would be able to propel itself away from the ship, and it could be self-guiding.



...
Partially alleviated in the new star trek movies, but I always wondered why they didn't just shoot the incoming torpedoes out of the 'air' with phasers. Or better yet, blast them right after they came out of the tube so they blew up next to the enemy ship.
I liked that the Stargate writers dealt with this, mainly in Atlantis. The Wraith would immediately start shooting at any incoming missiles, and generally did a pretty good job of intercepting them.
 
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jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
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A more interesting question is how come R2-D2 went rolling after the MF's hyperdrive got fixed and it unexpectedly leapt to light speed? Either the motion dampeners were active or they weren't. If they were active he shouldn't have felt such a strong pull. If they weren't the accelleration would have turned everyone aboard into sauce on the back wall.
 

AstroManLuca

Lifer
Jun 24, 2004
15,628
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Plot device.

Ding.

At best, a cloaked ship (if it was truly invisible) wouldn't be able to see out of the cloak any better than outside observers would be able to see in. This is how cloaks work in Star Wars (at least in the Timothy Zahn novels; I haven't kept up with the "Expanded Universe" since the mid 90s).
 

SagaLore

Elite Member
Dec 18, 2001
24,036
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Its simple: The torpedo gives away their position, not only as its leaving the ship, but due to it leaving a detectable path. The cloak can't work while shields are up - not just because of the amount of energy it takes to use either, but because they both work on the premise of affecting surrounding space using fields of energy. They juts don't mix.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
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Its simple: The torpedo gives away their position, not only as its leaving the ship, but due to it leaving a detectable path. The cloak can't work while shields are up - not just because of the amount of energy it takes to use either, but because they both work on the premise of affecting surrounding space using fields of energy. They just don't mix.
Except on the Scimitar. ;)
 

Analog

Lifer
Jan 7, 2002
12,755
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0
cloaking-klingon-bird-of-prey.jpg
 

AstroManLuca

Lifer
Jun 24, 2004
15,628
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81
A more interesting question is how come R2-D2 went rolling after the MF's hyperdrive got fixed and it unexpectedly leapt to light speed? Either the motion dampeners were active or they weren't. If they were active he shouldn't have felt such a strong pull. If they weren't the accelleration would have turned everyone aboard into sauce on the back wall.

comic relief

it was a george lucas movie, remember
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
100,481
17,952
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A more interesting question is how come R2-D2 went rolling after the MF's hyperdrive got fixed and it unexpectedly leapt to light speed? Either the motion dampeners were active or they weren't. If they were active he shouldn't have felt such a strong pull. If they weren't the accelleration would have turned everyone aboard into sauce on the back wall.

stupid robot didn't get the memo.
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,758
603
126
Of course, TNG features an episode where Riker defeats a Ferengi ship's cloak by teleporting a bunch of gold pressed latinum into space and blowing it up, the resulting debris field revealed the ship's location. So really ships should just mist a bunch of garbage around when they think there are cloaked ships afoot.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
100,481
17,952
126
Of course, TNG features an episode where Riker defeats a Ferengi ship's cloak by teleporting a bunch of gold pressed latinum into space and blowing it up, the resulting debris field revealed the ship's location. So really ships should just mist a bunch of garbage around when they think there are cloaked ships afoot.


Pink Paint works best :D
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,758
603
126
A more interesting question is how come R2-D2 went rolling after the MF's hyperdrive got fixed and it unexpectedly leapt to light speed? Either the motion dampeners were active or they weren't. If they were active he shouldn't have felt such a strong pull. If they weren't the accelleration would have turned everyone aboard into sauce on the back wall.

Cosmic radiation corrupted the memory bit holding the value of the state of R2-D2's wheel motor, causing his wheels to temporarily engage and hurl him into the engineering bay/hole. The fact that it occurred exactly as the hyper drive engaged was probably just a coincidence. :p
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
8,360
9,743
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Always wondered why the Trek universe isn't packed to the brim with asteroids someone strapped a warp drive to. No deflector shield = planet killer.
 

AstroManLuca

Lifer
Jun 24, 2004
15,628
5
81
Always wondered why the Trek universe isn't packed to the brim with asteroids someone strapped a warp drive to. No deflector shield = planet killer.

Yeah I think someone brought this up last week. All you have to do to seriously fuck up any planet you want to is send any derelict ship at warp speed into a planet while on autopilot (or if you like martyrs, with someone at the controls).
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
20
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Of course, TNG features an episode where Riker defeats a Ferengi ship's cloak by teleporting a bunch of gold pressed latinum into space and blowing it up, the resulting debris field revealed the ship's location. So really ships should just mist a bunch of garbage around when they think there are cloaked ships afoot.

In modern dogfights the planes are kms apart. In space I imagine we'd be talking an order of magnitude more of open space in any direction. Sounds like you'd have to send out a ton of explosives over a huge area to pull that off.

Oh, and for old times sake :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm_0YgTbIDM
 

dr150

Diamond Member
Sep 18, 2003
6,570
24
81
Sure, because it would be impossible to build a ship with a 2nd power source so that one could run the cloak and the other could handle weapons and shields. Darn starship designers, they could overcome the limitations of speed of light travel and yet none of them could understand that 2 > 1.

This is like one of the Big Bang Theory episodes where nerds debate comic book mysteries why can't people recognize Clark Kent with glasses on...