Why California needs Proposition 8..........

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bsobel

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Dec 9, 2001
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you think that the "shit" I believe is "utterly ridiculous"???
That's easy. Not all view points are equal The view point which takes rights away from a group by another group not shown to benefit is bigotry. Even when another group benefits that benefit needs to be weighed at the cost of the restriction.

Not allowing you to murder might infringe on your desires, but is better for others as a group.
Disallowing you to marry a minor my also infringe on your desires, but is better for the group as a whole.
Disallowing two adults to marry regardless of gender hasn't been shown to infringe on the rights of the group in any way. Now you can point to the increased out of wedlock births the original video claimed, but I've already completely debunked that.

 

bsobel

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Dec 9, 2001
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Originally posted by: CallMeJoe
Buggerbean and redgtxdi should start a mutual admiration society.
<MODMODE>CallMeJoe may want to refrain from calling out other posters who aren't participating in this thread. Harvey should do the same</MODMODE>

 

redgtxdi

Diamond Member
Jun 23, 2004
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Originally posted by: bsobel
you think that the "shit" I believe is "utterly ridiculous"???
That's easy. Not all view points are equal The view point which takes rights away from a group by another group not shown to benefit is bigotry. Even when another group benefits that benefit needs to be weighed at the cost of the restriction.

Not allowing you to murder might infringe on your desires, but is better for others as a group.
Disallowing you to marry a minor my also infringe on your desires, but is better for the group as a whole.
Disallowing two adults to marry regardless of gender hasn't been shown to infringe on the rights of the group in any way. Now you can point to the increased out of wedlock births the original video claimed, but I've already completely debunked that.
Well, aside from the question not being directed to you.....

If higher divorce rates where gay marriage is legal leads to an increase in the socioeconomic decline of said society..........

Doesn't that follow your model exactly??
 

ICRS

Banned
Apr 20, 2008
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Originally posted by: seemingly random
Originally posted by: bsobel
Originally posted by: seemingly random
Repugs are crapping in their boots.
Their pillars of hate and misdirection are crashing down on their disbelieving little heads.
Another biogt. I'm a republican, I'm against 8. So stop presuming you know people when you dont.
I thought one of the pillars of the republican party was anti-gay marriage. You don't sound like a true republican.

This might shock you but Arnold who is a Republican and the Governator of Cali as strongly against prop 8 and a constitutional ban on gay marriage, infact he says more gays should come and get married in cali to bring in revenue for the state.
 

bsobel

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Dec 9, 2001
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If higher divorce rates where gay marriage is legal leads to an increase in the socioeconomic decline of said society..........
I always hope when you give someone facts and information they'll reconsider their viewpoint. Its always sad when someone like you simply won't in the face of such data.

The error in your question is you consider the socioeconmic value of those homosexual couples which remain married. Since today they are not allowed to, you've factored that out in your comparision.

 

redgtxdi

Diamond Member
Jun 23, 2004
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Originally posted by: bsobel


The error in your question is you consider the socioeconmic value of those homosexual couples which remain married. Since today they are not allowed to, you've factored that out in your comparision.

:confused:
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: redgtxdi

Topic Title: Why California needs Proposition 8..........
Topic Summary: ............yes, as in vote "YES" on 8.................
Thanks for the bigotry. Please FOAD! :thumbsdown: :|
Isn't Obama against gay marriage?
One of the many things I differ with him about. But then I don't have to cater to the ignoramuses he and McCain do to get elected.
It sure would be a nice change if we were offered a candidate with courage. Or is that too much to hope for?
You got one. Dennis Kucinich. People did not vote for him enough.
 

bsobel

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Dec 9, 2001
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Originally posted by: redgtxdi
Originally posted by: bsobel


The error in your question is you consider the socioeconmic value of those homosexual couples which remain married. Since today they are not allowed to, you've factored that out in your comparision.

:confused:
Since they are not allowed to referred to prop 8 passing, sorry I see how that could be confusing.

 

Jschmuck2

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
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I think you should have to go around and tell all of these people that they can't get married - and when they as why, you'll have to stand there, slackjawed and try to explain it them.

What would that sound like?
 

cKGunslinger

Lifer
Nov 29, 1999
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Originally posted by: between
the guy in the video seems to be saying:

1) when gay couples are given the right to marry, only a small percentage of them do. The implication being there is no urgency in providing equal rights to gay couples. This isn't even an argument. You don't give or take fundamental rights from people based on whether or not you think they will exercise those rights. The reality is that older gay people have grown up with the expectation they would never be allowed to marry anyway. I think legalisation of gay marriage will probably do more to help young gay people. They won't have to grow up knowing there are certain rights that are not available to them.

2) He seems to be saying that in countries that legalise gay marriage, there are also high levels of "out of wedlock births". I don't think this correlation is surprising. The countries that have legalised gay marriage are renowned for their more liberal social attitudes. In countries where you get liberal social attitudes, you also get more couples living together (and having babies) but not marrying. Basically people in these countries are more likely to see marriage as anachronistic. Decline in popularity of marriage is a trend that was seen in these countries before gay marriage was legalised. The trend isn't caused by gay marriage.
Take your logic, common sense, and facts and get out!

We's a-bashin' da gays in here!
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Administrator
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: bsobel

<MODMODE>CallMeJoe may want to refrain from calling out other posters who aren't participating in this thread. Harvey should do the same</MODMODE>
OK. I'll leave that stunt to you. :laugh: :evil:
 

redgtxdi

Diamond Member
Jun 23, 2004
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Originally posted by: Jschmuck2
I think you should have to go around and tell all of these people that they can't get married - and when they as why, you'll have to stand there, slackjawed and try to explain it them.

What would that sound like?
I'd just tell them that they can certainly get married, just not here in my home state. (Although, as per bsobel's previous cue, it actually *is* legal *and* recognized in California this very minute)

And if I explain to them, (using bsobel's model) that it's "better for the group" if they don't.... based on statistics, then what does that sound like??
 

Jschmuck2

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
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I want you to tell us what YOU would say to them.

I'm sure we'd all love to hear it.
 

redgtxdi

Diamond Member
Jun 23, 2004
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Originally posted by: Jschmuck2
I want you to tell us what YOU would say to them.

I'm sure we'd all love to hear it.
Exactly what I posted. I actually made these arguments months ago when Prop 8 first started.

If you're asking about hearing my own religious arguments for Prop 8......I'll leave the religious aspect out of this to argue on a level where more people feel it. (socioeconomically)

Religious threads never go far here on AT and CERTAINLY not in P&N.

;)
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Red, you are full of bigotry. Like many bigots, you don't understand that.

For just one point, you are wrong in the approach you are taking here, as if even if you could show some negatives to gay marriage, (and I don't think you can), that gives you the right to deny people civil rights. All kinds of civil rights have prices to them but are still right for people to have.

The point isn't disproving the crap you posted, it's that you need justification for not treating gays as equal citizens. You can't provide any.

You need to start with the default that people are given equal rights and then prove why they should be discriminated against.

You should understand why people like me find you immoral and despicable for your harming others terrible for no better reason than your ignorance and character flaws.
 

seemingly random

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2007
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Originally posted by: ICRS
Originally posted by: seemingly random
Originally posted by: bsobel
Originally posted by: seemingly random
Repugs are crapping in their boots.
Their pillars of hate and misdirection are crashing down on their disbelieving little heads.
Another biogt. I'm a republican, I'm against 8. So stop presuming you know people when you dont.
I thought one of the pillars of the republican party was anti-gay marriage. You don't sound like a true republican.

This might shock you but Arnold who is a Republican and the Governator of Cali as strongly against prop 8 and a constitutional ban on gay marriage, infact he says more gays should come and get married in cali to bring in revenue for the state.
Yes, but, a pleasant shock. I don't know if arnold is a true repug anyways - he just needed to be opposite whatever davis was.

So, it sounds like there are two (or more) republican parties. This seems like political schizophrenia.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
64,389
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OP: Am I safe to assume that Proposition 8 really provides you no benefit?
 

redgtxdi

Diamond Member
Jun 23, 2004
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Originally posted by: Craig234
Red, you are full of bigotry. Like many bigots, you don't understand that.

You should understand why people like me find you immoral and despicable for your harming others terrible for no better reason than your ignorance and character flaws.
Did you even read any of this thread???

:confused:


And like I said before..............BIGOTRY is quite the term in this thread.


And if somebody finds a legal loophole in the future allowing adults to marry minors........or to legalize polygamy........incestual union, etc. etc...........and you oppose it.........will that make YOU a bigot??
 

cKGunslinger

Lifer
Nov 29, 1999
16,402
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Originally posted by: redgtxdi
Originally posted by: Jschmuck2
I want you to tell us what YOU would say to them.

I'm sure we'd all love to hear it.
Exactly what I posted. I actually made these arguments months ago when Prop 8 first started.

If you're asking about hearing my own religious arguments for Prop 8......I'll leave the religious aspect out of this to argue on a level where more people feel it. (socioeconomically)

Religious threads never go far here on AT and CERTAINLY not in P&N.

;)
Because instead of actual religious scholars or practitioners, we instead get ramblings from homophobic zealots who claim that their hatred and irrationality are sponsored by Jesus..
 

redgtxdi

Diamond Member
Jun 23, 2004
5,463
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Originally posted by: ironwing
OP: Am I safe to assume that Proposition 8 really provides you no benefit?
I answered your question in part throughout this thread, i-dub (remember i-dub?) ;)

But for you, here's the gist........


#1.) I think that in 2006 this state voted against gay marriage....(i.e. pro hetero marriage)

#2.) I think some judges stepped out of bounds turning that around. (remember 61% of Cali.....oooops........VOTING Californians......voted to protect hetero marriage)

#3.) I believe (via stats) that gay marriage can lead to socioeconomic decline here in California.

#4.) I have kids being raised in this state whose future I concern myself with, both morally and socioeconomically as well.

Therefore.......I believe that Prop 8 will justify #1, start to ensure that the will of the people of the state of California will not be overturned like in #2 again, protect my state from the potential socioeconomic decline attached to gay marriage and allow my kids to grow up however they will.........(yes, even if either of them turns out to be gay).

Fair enough?
 

bsobel

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Dec 9, 2001
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And if somebody finds a legal loophole in the future allowing adults to marry minors........or to legalize polygamy........incestual union, etc. etc...........and you oppose it.........will that make YOU a bigot??
Aww yes, the fake comparison. You forgot the 'someone will marry their dog'. You need to understand the legal meaning of consent and why minors don't have it. The one thing on your list, polygamy, is a fair comparison. There is little real reason it's illegal in all 50 states.

 

redgtxdi

Diamond Member
Jun 23, 2004
5,463
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Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Because instead of actual religious scholars or practitioners, we instead get ramblings from homophobic zealots who claim that their hatred and irrationality are sponsored by Jesus..

Ya, I tried to get Dr. James Dobson to sign up for an AT account, but he declined.

:p
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Administrator
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: redgtxdi

And if somebody finds a legal loophole in the future allowing adults to marry minors........or to legalize polygamy........incestual union, etc. etc...........and you oppose it.........will that make YOU a bigot??
I believe that's called a straw man argument, and it still leaves you no less a bigoted prick. :thumbsdown: :|

The Preamble to The Constitution of the United States of America says:

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Why do you want to deny justice, domestic tranquilty and the blessings of liberty to any group of American citizens? :confused:

Why do you hate America? :shocked:
 

redgtxdi

Diamond Member
Jun 23, 2004
5,463
8
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Originally posted by: bsobel
Aww yes, the fake comparison. You forgot the 'someone will marry their dog'. You need to understand the legal meaning of consent and why minors don't have it. The one thing on your list, polygamy, is a fair comparison. There is little real reason it's illegal in all 50 states.
That's why I used multiple examples. Because where there are lawyers, there is a way!!


You laugh now, but first ask yourself how a group like NAMBLA can even EXIST in this country, much less prosper.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAMBLA

http://johncoleman.typepad.com...4/nambla_and_the_.html


Remember.......to NAMBLA, even YOU are a bigot!!!! (unless you're pro-Nambla, which I doubt)
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
346
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Originally posted by: redgtxdi
Originally posted by: Craig234
Red, you are full of bigotry. Like many bigots, you don't understand that.

You should understand why people like me find you immoral and despicable for your harming others terrible for no better reason than your ignorance and character flaws.
Did you even read any of this thread???
All of it. So whatever point you thought you had, you are wrong.


And like I said before..............BIGOTRY is quite the term in this thread.
You call that an argument? You show extreme bigotry, are told you did, and you think that saying people pointed it out is a response?

You need to get a clue about your bigotry and stop it, not post blather.

And if somebody finds a legal loophole in the future allowing adults to marry minors........or to legalize polygamy........incestual union, etc. etc...........and you oppose it.........will that make YOU a bigot??
First of all, there's something called the 'slippery slope' fallacy. You're committing it.

Second, no, that would not be bigotry, because there *are* rational reasons regarding minors that are not relevant to adult homosexual people.

Polygamy is another issue and not an excuse for bigotry on gay marriage.

You have not shown any justification for discriminating against gays.

Polls show that the public is against prop 8, so since you say you are all about the 'will of the people', you are about to lose that one too.
 

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