Why buy OEM computers?

[Bagger]

Originally posted by: vi_edit
Bagger, I'm most certainly not knocking your prowess at finding good deals, but you are missing the point. People buy OEM machines for cost, convenience, and support. Your setup provides only one of the three, and I somewhat question that one item.

As far as apples to apples I think of it like this - If I am out looking for a car, I could buy a honda for $15,000 or a Hyundai for $14,000(not quite accurate numbers but stick with me). Sure they both do the same thing, but ones a honda, and the other is a hyundai. One has a solid history, and pretty much ensures me years of trouble free service. The other has a shaky history, an uncertain future, and generally doesn't have a gleaming repution outside of a select few owners that are happy with the way their cars ran.

For $1000(or $100) in this case, do we want to take that chance? How many servers do you see running AMD in them?

That's what I thought.

(P.S. - I run AMD in my home system)

I think we're going to see a nice shift in that server number coming soon with the new AMD chips coming out

Cost = I guarentee you I can buy each of those parts for that price within the span of 1 or 2 weeks. This coming sunday, Staples will have a 40GB 7200rpm hard drive, 52x24x52 LITE-ON CD-RW drive, Netgear Network Card, 56k modem, and Surge Protector for a total of $20 after coupon and rebates.

Service & Support would kinda be the same thing wouldn't they? Would you rather have someone who lives down the street from you service your PC, or some $7/hr tech support noob tell you to make sure your PC is plugged in 5 times before he transfers you to level 2 support and then maybe they'll have a technician by your house in a few days. When will the technician be there? Oh, who knows, sometime between noon and 6pm.. oh wait, you're at work, OK he might be by there while you're eating dinner, or when you're trying to put the kids to bed, who knows. Can you get in touch with him to let him know what time to come? Not likely. Can you call him the next day if it doesn't work again? Not likely. Will you have to sit on hold listening to the blunt-smoking Dell dude for 5 minutes? Probably.

The moral of the story: If you know what kinda hardware you want but aren't comfortable building your own, become good friends with a geek

 

[vi edit]

Question - do you

a) charge for building the machines for people?
b) charge for support?

Unless you are the Mother Theresa of Geeks providing free support and free builds, then all it takes is a couple in house calls and you've just eaten away any sort of margin you have over Dell.

I don't know about you, but I don't provide free support. $40 an hour to go onsite, minimum of an hour. All it takes is a couple calls and you've just lost the pricing edge.

Exactly why I no longer do builds for people. There's no money in it, and all you get is a headache.

 

[Bullhonkie]

Originally posted by: Bagger
I think we're going to see a nice shift in that server number coming soon with the new AMD chips coming out

Cost = I guarentee you I can buy each of those parts for that price within the span of 1 or 2 weeks. This coming sunday, Staples will have a 40GB 7200rpm hard drive, 52x24x52 LITE-ON CD-RW drive, Netgear Network Card, 56k modem, and Surge Protector for a total of $20 after coupon and rebates.

Service & Support would kinda be the same thing wouldn't they? Would you rather have someone who lives down the street from you service your PC, or some $7/hr tech support noob tell you to make sure your PC is plugged in 5 times before he transfers you to level 2 support and then maybe they'll have a technician by your house in a few days. When will the technician be there? Oh, who knows, sometime between noon and 6pm.. oh wait, you're at work, OK he might be by there while you're eating dinner, or when you're trying to put the kids to bed, who knows. Can you get in touch with him to let him know what time to come? Not likely. Can you call him the next day if it doesn't work again? Not likely. Will you have to sit on hold listening to the blunt-smoking Dell dude for 5 minutes? Probably.

The moral of the story: If you know what kinda hardware you want but aren't comfortable building your own, become good friends with a geek

I loved your apples to apples comparison to the Dell system above.

I think some of you need to step back and take a look at the big picture here. A lot of the things that we 'geeks' do are in the minority. Not everyone knows someone who can build/troubleshoot/fix a computer blindfolded, or reads hot deal sites 6 times a day, or has the time to run down rebates/coupons/pricematches from different places. Are you ready to be there to provide support 24/7 for the people you build systems for? You're willing to sacrifice obligations with friends or family to go and track down problems for people? Unless you have absolutely no life whatsoever, it's nearly impossible to guarantee people the kind of 24/7 support you can get from a big-name well-established OEM.

Sometimes for some people, the peace of mind provided by having bought from a place like Dell is invaluable. They don't have to depend on a single person who may have other obligations. They don't have to scramble to find different receipts for warranty on different parts. These are some of the reasons why I tell anyone other than my family and closest friends to buy a Dell. And if they insist, they must completely understand that I won't provide a shred of support - only then I will build them a system. Otherwise, call Dell.

Moral of my story: Please try not to be so closed-minded. Not everyone is fortunate enough to know a 'geek'. Not everyone is fortunate enough to know how to build their own computer, even if it is easy for you or me. Different people have different needs, and for some people, an OEM made computer makes perfect sense, even if it may not make sense to you or me.

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: vi_edit
Question - do you a) charge for building the machines for people? b) charge for support? Unless you are the Mother Theresa of Geeks providing free support and free builds, then all it takes is a couple in house calls and you've just eaten away any sort of margin you have over Dell. I don't know about you, but I don't provide free support. $40 an hour to go onsite, minimum of an hour. All it takes is a couple calls and you've just lost the pricing edge. Exactly why I no longer do builds for people. There's no money in it, and all you get is a headache.

I agree. I think most of these busters don't factor that in.

Gateway offers a Service Center in everyone of their stores - you can't beat that convenience.

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: ddeder
Sorry. I wa replying to an earlier post which had a Dell machine for $430 that came with WP bundle. I see the bundle you posted does have Works. My point about the support still holds true. One other thing... When a new CPU comes out requiring a new motherboard, how likely is it that I will be able to use that Dell case and PSU with my new motherboard and CPU? For that matter, if a Dell motherboard dies a day after the warranty expires, where can I get a replacement and how much will I have to pay for it?

Gateway actually uses the same RETAIL mobos that Intel sells, so you would be limited to the chipset. Put any processor in it you want.

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: ddeder
It may be tough, if not impossible to beat the price of the machine, but sooner or later most users will need support for their machine. Most people would be better off paying a little more for a custom machine from a local computer shop so they don't have to deal with the BS support of Dell, Gateway, HP or any of the big makers. The first time you spend 3 hours on the phone being routed around an automated system you will agree with me... Also, who wants the crappy software that Dell and the rest bundle with their machines? Who the heck uses Word Perfect Productivity Pack anyway? If they can bundle Microsoft Works 2003 or Office XP at the same price then it would be worth something. Seems to me the rest of the junk they load on the machine (AOL, MSN, Dell utilities, etc...) just gums up the machine and takes up space.

FYI - Gateway has real techs on the phone, and the only thing automated about it is having to input your computers serial #. Not to mention that they have Gateway Country stores across the US to bring your computer into.

 

[Bagger]

As I stated above, if I paid $443 for a system and it's someone I don't have a previous relationship, they're going to pay around $600. I don't build systems for that many people so I don't have 100 people calling me at all times of the night. And obviously not everyone is going to know someone who's as informed/obsessed as most of us, but I'm not sure that's the big picture as you stated. The question was, I believe, COULD SOMEONE BEAT THAT CONFIGURATION. I think I showed that yes, you can beat that configuration for the price.

I have no visions of ever being able to compete with Dell on a large basis, but if a friend of mine wanted to buy a PC, then I'll certainly weigh all the options, and if I think I can provide a better configuration at that given time than a similar Dell would cost, I'll recommend that he have me build it. If Dell has one of their super-duper $300 complete system deals with a P4 2.0ghz then I'd recommend that in a heartbeat. I love how Dell now gives away a 90-day trial version of the anti-virus software. So now the customer has to pay to not get a virus? I wonder how many times that's bit them in the ass. I just had to go over to a friend's house to work on their brand new Compaq system that had 60 virus-infected files. They had alot of data that they wanted backed up but didn't know how to find it or what to look for. Dell Tech Support would have tried to help them find the files to no avail, and probably would have basically told them "You'll just have to do a system restore, sorry".

I have heard it mentioned a few times how not everyone is willing to spend hours reading Hot Deals, etc. Well that's why I'd build the system for them. I read the Hot Deals forum regardless. Having someone pay me to build a system just makes the Hot Deals scouring feel more productive

Question: Is everyone in Off Topic so..um..wound up? Relax, people

 

[Jzero]

As far as apples to apples I think of it like this

I think by apples-to-apples he meant that he wasn't asking "Can you build a computer for less than $XXX" he was asking "Can you build THIS computer for less?"
Using an AMD processor is a meaningless comparison because you would be using a different and cheaper part. Performance isn't part of the comparison.

Service & Support would kinda be the same thing wouldn't they? Would you rather have someone who lives down the street from you service your PC, or some $7/hr tech support noob..

Really? Can I call you up 24x7 asking you the stupidest questions I can think of?
Will you come to my work on my lunch hour and work on my PC (because that's what they did for my co-worker's Dell!)?
Do you have a website where I can do self-help and you provide manuals, documentation and the latest drivers for all the parts?

And I can tell you how "Tech Support" is from your local computer shop. My first PC my parents bought me from a nearby parts shop. It had a bum CD-ROM drive. It wouldn't read some CDs. INCLUDING the Windows CD.
So I called them and told them what was going on and their answer was "Well, you shouldn't be putting the Windows CD in the drive."
What kind of idiot answer is that?
I finally convince them to replace the CD-ROM drive, but I was leaving for college on Saturday and it was Thursday. They said they had no time on Thursday or during the day on Friday. Guess what? The place is run by practicing Jews and they don't work after sundown on a Friday because it is SHABBAT! So I ended up just replacing it myself. Thanks for nothing. With one of the major OEMs, I might have had to spend more time on the phone with them, but they would have come to my dorm and FIXED IT.

How about another one. I was a net tech at school and installed many NICs in many different computers. This girl had one from another local company. We always boot the machines up before we even open them up because sometimes people try to get smart and blame already-broken gear on our work. Boots up fine.
Plug in the NIC? Thing won't even start. Power switch does nothing.
Unplug the NIC? Same deal. Dead as a doornail.
After a lot of pissing an moaning we take it to the tech shop where they manage to get it working. Reboot it a few times, it works. Pop the NIC in, it works. Reboot a few more times, it works.
Takes it back to her room? It's freaking dead again. Good thing we made her sign off that she acknowledged that it was working.
She took it back to the local vendor, and they replaced the motherboard and billed her $300 that's THREE HUNDRED DOLLARS for a mobo on a PC that was a month old and still under warranty. That was just a garden variety slot 1 mobo. No way it cost them $300 to replace, even at auto dealer mechanic service rates....what, don't they have screwdrivers?

So screw that

 

[Bagger]

I'm no big fan of local computer shops. I can't think of a single one around here I'd recommend to anyone I know. $50 to even look at a PC, usually the "sales-person" has 0 knowledge of PCs and all the decisions are made by the mysterious guy in the back. Yuck. No I wouldn't go that route, but they aren't hobbyists, they're business-men. It's kinda like knowing a car mechanic. Everyone has horror stories of their local automotive repair shop, but if you know a good mechanic, you'll get taken care of. Same thing with plumber, electrician, just about any field of service.

 

[Jzero]

Everyone has horror stories of their local automotive repair shop, but if you know a good mechanic, you'll get taken care of. Same thing with plumber, electrician, just about any field of service.

If building, repairing and servicing PCs is your full-time profession, then OK, maybe you'll take care of me. But if your just a friend or an acquaintance? I doubt you'd be interested in taking my phone call at 2:00AM complaining that there is a photograph jammed in my DVD-ROM because I thought that was the scanner, or even a more legitimate problem.

 

[Bagger]

I think by apples-to-apples he meant that he wasn't asking "Can you build a computer for less than $XXX" he was asking "Can you build THIS computer for less?"
Using an AMD processor is a meaningless comparison because you would be using a different and cheaper part. Performance isn't part of the comparison.

Sure if I use the exact same parts Dell uses I'm going to pay higher... that's quite obvious. But can you really say that if the computers perform the same, the average user is going to notice if he's using an AMD or an Intel CPU? They may have heard the Intel "ding" and recognize it, but now you're getting into the whole Intel vs. AMD rant that I refuse to participate in. If I can get a Lite-On CD-burner for 1/4 the price of a Plextor and it gets just as good reviews and performs just as well or better, could you really fault me for choosing a Lite-on? What inherent advantages are there to an Intel CPU that justifies the added cost? I wasn't aware that the stipulations required me building the exact same PC. I'm going to have to pay a lot of money to get that exact Dell Dimension 45xx case, so I guess that means I can't match the price. I also can't get that lovely customer Dell power supply and motherobard with proprietary pin-outs that will cause both components to blow up if I replace either one with a STANDARD part. Even if you substitute a Pentium 4 2.4ghz cpu that's only another $100, and maybe another $20 for the motherboard... that's a total of $560, still beating the price by $200.

 

[Bagger]

Originally posted by: Jzero

Everyone has horror stories of their local automotive repair shop, but if you know a good mechanic, you'll get taken care of. Same thing with plumber, electrician, just about any field of service.

If building, repairing and servicing PCs is your full-time profession, then OK, maybe you'll take care of me. But if your just a friend or an acquaintance? I doubt you'd be interested in taking my phone call at 2:00AM complaining that there is a photograph jammed in my DVD-ROM because I thought that was the scanner, or even a more legitimate problem.

I would never build a PC for someone that inept. Period. If someone I sold a PC to had a legitimate emergency at 2am I'd be more than willing to take their phone call, but due to the small scale with which I build for people, the chances of me having a 2am call are very slight. Now, having said that, if someone came to me and wanted a PC that they were going to be using to run their small business and it was a mission-critical machine, I'm not touching that PC. I'm not going to take on that much responsibility, that's exactly what Dell is for.

I'll tell you the kind of people I build systems for:
1) My best friend of 20 years who wants a second computer for doing animation and rendering on while he experiments with putting together his own comic book. He's got limited space so I suggested to him that he get a KVM switch for $35 and just have me put together another system for him that can sit under his desk, and he can switch back and forth as he pleases. Total cost of the system: Around $350 for a NICE XP1600+ system w/Radeon 8500, 60GB hdd, etc.

2) A couple that's friends of my wife and I who want a second computer for getting on the internet. They don't need anything fancy, just something to be able to let the kids use when they need to do homework or send email. Total cost: About $75 using spare parts laying around, plus networking the 2 PCs together so they share the dialup connection. Still trying to convince them to cancel their second phone line and get a broadband connection.

3) My wife's best friend and her husband who are slightly familiar with computers but didn't have one of their own, couldn't afford one, and just needed something to get on the internet. Total cost: $30 for an old Celeron 366 box.

4) My dad, who was the proud owner of the first 1ghz computer in the family. It was a Duron 700 overclocked to 1ghz. I will NEVER forget the look on his face when that machine booted up and had all those beautiful 0's at the end of the 1

5) My brother, who I've put 2 PCs together for. I make him drop off his PC whenever I work on it, cuz if he's in the room while I do it, we wind up arguing

6) My mom

7) My aunt

etc..

 

[Ornery]

I need a cheap Intel PC, and there's no deals at Dell, except for the $270 PowerEdge 600SC 2.4GHz P4 40GB. Not too keen on the lack of AGP slot and leery of the 64-bit PCI slot configuration.

I've got a new case, but no P4 power supply. An Asus with "EZ Plug power connector" would help here. I prefer Asus for stability anyway. What's the cheapest I could slap a Grandma & Grandpa Web surfing machine together for? It's going to be used by a church, so I want it to be upgradable to AGP video just in case.

• $145.00 Asus P4GE-V/L
  $140.00 Intel Pentium4 1.8A GHz 512K Socket 478 Processor - Retail
  $031.00 KINGSTON KVR333X64C25/256 256MB 32x64 PC2700 DDR RAM
  $060.00 LG(GOLDSTAR) CDRW52x24x52x CD-REWRITABLE DRIVE - OEM
  $071.00 WD WESTERN DIGITAL EIDE HARD DRIVE 40GB 7200RPM -CAVIAR OEM
  $093.00 Windows XP Home Edition with Service Pack 1
  $032.00 Enlight Case & Floppy
  $010.00 Shipping
  _______
  $582.00 Total

Damn, that's a lot for a budget box! I can snag the memory for a bit cheaper, and the CDRW can be purchased for $20.00 after rebate for CenDyne. Sheesh, plus the cost to build it! Gawd, unless somebody has a better idea, I'll tell them to buy a Dell Dimension 2350 with 1.80GHz, 128MB DDR, 30GB HDD, WinXP, CDRW, Keyboard, Mouse, 1 year on-site etc. for $422.00 including shipping and tax. Not a Hot Deal, but I still can't beat it! :disgust:

 

[ProviaFan]

Originally posted by: Ornery
I need a cheap Intel PC, and there's no deals at Dell, except for the $270 PowerEdge 600SC 2.4GHz P4 40GB. Not too keen on the lack of AGP slot and leery of the 64-bit PCI slot configuration.

I've got a new case, but no P4 power supply. An Asus with "EZ Plug power connector" would help here. I prefer Asus for stability anyway. What's the cheapest I could slap a Grandma & Grandpa Web surfing machine together for? It's going to be used by a church, so I want it to be upgradable to AGP video just in case.

• $145.00 Asus P4GE-V/L
  $140.00 Intel Pentium4 1.8A GHz 512K Socket 478 Processor - Retail
  $031.00 KINGSTON KVR333X64C25/256 256MB 32x64 PC2700 DDR RAM
  $060.00 LG(GOLDSTAR) CDRW52x24x52x CD-REWRITABLE DRIVE - OEM
  $071.00 WD WESTERN DIGITAL EIDE HARD DRIVE 40GB 7200RPM -CAVIAR OEM
  $093.00 Windows XP Home Edition with Service Pack 1
  $032.00 Enlight Case & Floppy
  $010.00 Shipping
  _______
  $582.00 Total

Damn, that's a lot for a budget box! I can snag the memory for a bit cheaper, and the CDRW can be purchased for $20.00 after rebate for CenDyne. Sheesh, plus the cost to build it! Gawd, unless somebody has a better idea, I'll tell them to buy a Dell Dimension 2350 with 1.80GHz, 128MB DDR, 30GB HDD, WinXP, CDRW, Keyboard, Mouse, 1 year on-site etc. for $422.00 including shipping and tax. Not a Hot Deal, but I still can't beat it! :disgust:

Obviously, the one you pieced together does have better specs, but the grandparents don't need 10GB more disk space for their email and a few digital photos, and they won't be doing much multitasking, so 128MB of RAM is fine. Now, for a church system which might be running Powerpoint and Windows XP, you would definitely want 256MB of RAM (or more) for better performance, but I assume that the Dell system could be upgraded to include that at a minimal cost. In conclusion, as much as it hurts our geek egos, this is a case where an OEM system is best.

In a few months, I'm probably going to have to decide on a video / audio recording and powerpoint system for the church at which I am unofficial tech guy. For that case, a higher end workstation-like system (I'm thinking dual athlon or xeon) is needed, and I have a feeling (from rough estimates of prices at newegg) that I could beat Dell in both price and performance in that situation, but nevertheless, that is not relevant to the OEM vs. DIY for grandma argument.

 

[Hoober]

Originally posted by: CallTheFBI

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Because it's easier. Not everyone has the time to research a bunch of different parts to see if they play nicely with one another, not everyone wants to look through six different vendors sites to get drivers.

ZV

I printed out a list of parts from my local computer shop's web site, went down and said: "I want all the stuff on this list." Put it all on my Visa Check card, came home and had my computer up and running before I went to bed that night.

You're a star.

 

[tcsenter]

You CAN NOT build a PC as cheap and stable as Dell can, generic parts or not. My parents and in-laws both got PCs from Dell this Christmas. P4 1.7GHz, 256MB RAM, 40GB HDD, 40X CDRW, Windows XP, keyboard & mouse, 1 year on-site service, ready to go right out of the box, registered, activated and all. $340.00 including shipping! Beat that wise ass.

Except for the high-end of the spectrum: The Godzilla-vs-Mothra systems with all the options. Even then, you're cutting it close if you use licensed software and operating systems. You're not going to match the software bundles using legitimate software, but that's ok because I hate all that bundled crap, anyway. Still have the issue of technical support and warranty unresolved.

I've taken heat for saying that I just refer people to Systemax or eMachines anymore unless they want a high-end system, but its the truth. Just not worth my time for the paultry amount I make on a system trying to stay competitive in price, unless its for friends and family at my discretion. I actually enjoy doing it for free more than for fee, far less pressure and if they aren't happy I can always tell them "you got what you paid for".

 

[dxkj]

Dang, I was gonna flame some of the stupid things I saw in this thread, and then I found out this moron was banned





RIP Callthefbi

 

[Ornery]

"RIP Callthefbi"

I hope that means Rot In Pieces or something similar.