Why Biden is pulling the US -- and NATO -- out of Afghanistan

[kage69]

Ouch.

 

[brycejones]

President Biden announced US troops will be pulling out of Afghanistan by September 11, 2021 - That was only 3 months ago and he moved it up - 3 months is not near enough time to organize a strategic withdrawal and keep the Afghan people safe.

Just hope YOUR CIA/Taliban conferences can keep the peace until all who want to leave Afghanistan can safely.

We had 7 fucking years to organize a strategic withdrawal. The US has been pulling troops and equipment out of Afghanistan for years now. This isn't a surprise to anyone you drunk fuck.

 

[HurleyBird]

Granted the Afghan People have to decide where their country is going.

Is it the Afghan people who hold the blame here? Or does the blame lie at the feet of US/NATO nation-builders for utterly failing to nation-build, leaving Afghanistan with a government where practically every position of authority was filled by a robber baron? Before jumping to blame the "backwards Arabs," maybe we can have a little introspection?

 

[woolfe9998]

Is it the Afghan people who hold the blame here? Or does the blame lie at the feet of US/NATO nation-builders for utterly failing to nation-build, leaving Afghanistan with a government where practically every position of authority was filled by a robber baron? Before jumping to blame the "backwards Arabs," maybe we can have a little introspection?

No, our problem was trying to nation build in the first place, because it never had a chance to be successful. And that, in part, is due to the backwardness of the culture there. And no, they aren't "Arabs."

 

[fskimospy]

Is it the Afghan people who hold the blame here? Or does the blame lie at the feet of US/NATO nation-builders for utterly failing to nation-build, leaving Afghanistan with a government where practically every position of authority was filled by a robber baron? Before jumping to blame the "backwards Arabs," maybe we can have a little introspection?

I mean if you want to say that solely (or almost solely) on the leadership of the two countries that's fine, but I think the overall point is that Afghan leadership utterly failed and at some point over 20 years Afghanistan is responsible for their leadership, not everyone else.

 

[brycejones]

Is it the Afghan people who hold the blame here? Or does the blame lie at the feet of US/NATO nation-builders for utterly failing to nation-build, leaving Afghanistan with a government where practically every position of authority was filled by a robber baron? Before jumping to blame the "backwards Arabs," maybe we can have a little introspection?

You know they aren't Arabs right?

 

[NWRMidnight]

Is it the Afghan people who hold the blame here? Or does the blame lie at the feet of US/NATO nation-builders for utterly failing to nation-build, leaving Afghanistan with a government where practically every position of authority was filled by a robber baron? Before jumping to blame the "backwards Arabs," maybe we can have a little introspection?

Something tells me you might want to go research what nation-building means. Neither the US/NATO are responsible for vetting, investigating, judging, being the jury, and/or choosing their leadership, that is on the Afghan people, and really has nothing to do with nation-building.

 

[HomerJS]

I agree, we should have left long, long ago, specially if the reports are true that the afghan soldiers where lazy, didn't follow orders/direction, showed up late, in other words, straight up didn't care. The moment that was proven true, we should have exited. That is where our failure was, trying to continue something that was obvious futile.

I heard once the US said we were leaving the Taliban told the Afghan army to lay down their arms or their families would be killed.

 

[fskimospy]

I heard once the US said we were leaving the Taliban told the Afghan army to lay down their arms or their families would be killed.

Yes, I’m not sure what’s so complicated about this. If the US withdrawing is what caused the collapse then withdrawing sooner doesn’t change the collapse, it just moves it up a little.

 

[Amol S.]

What would have been a bigger fuck up, would have been if John McCain had become president and stuck to his, "Bomb Bomb Bomb....Bomb Bomb Iran" campaign. The chaos that would have ensued would have certainly been 100% of the fault of the US.

 

[Jhhnn]

Twenty years ago when this all started, my reaction was "Invade Afghanistan? Are they out of their fucking minds?" Which they were, Neocon arrogance & inflated 9/11 hysteria being what they were at the time.

 

[HurleyBird]

No, our problem was trying to nation build in the first place, because it never had a chance to be successful. And that, in part, is due to the backwardness of the culture there. And no, they aren't "Arabs."

Sure, they aren't Arabs, thanks.

100% agree that we shouldn't have even tried to nation build.

However, the rest of your assertion doesn't sit easy with me.

As much as I disagree with the concept of nation building, it's certainly possible to do it successfully. Failure is only inevitable insofar as western democracies are utterly incompetent at it.

I also don't think that we can say that the "backwardness" of the Afghan people is a cause of failure. It's a non-sequitur, and subtly shifts the blame. A country with an "advanced" culture wouldn't need to be nation built in the first place and the concept of nation building presumes a "backwards" target culture in the eyes of the builder. Nation building doesn't fail because of the "backwardness" of the target culture. It fails because the nation building plan didn't take the target culture properly into account.

 

[woolfe9998]

Sure, they aren't Arabs, thanks.

100% agree that we shouldn't have even tried to nation build.

However, the rest of your assertion doesn't sit easy with me.

As much as I disagree with the concept of nation building, it's certainly possible to do it successfully. Failure is only inevitable insofar as western democracies are utterly incompetent at it.

I also don't think that we can say that the "backwardness" of the Afghan people is a cause of failure. It's a non-sequitur, and subtly shifts the blame. A country with an "advanced" culture wouldn't need to be nation built in the first place and the concept of nation building presumes a "backwards" target culture in the eyes of the builder. Nation building doesn't fail because of the "backwardness" of the target culture. It fails because the nation building plan didn't take the target culture properly into account.

No, that is wrong. We were able to successfully nation build in Germany and Japan because those countries had a history of modernization and of stable government. Not so in Afghanistan, where they never had a stable central government, and where the people are mostly rural, illiterate and hyper-religious.

If you think we could have done a better job nation building there, then please explain how. Preferably with specifics.

 

[UNCjigga]

Meanwhile, Hillary Clinton is still peddling her influence to do non-deplorable things:

 

[Jhhnn]

No, that is wrong. We were able to successfully nation build in Germany and Japan because those countries had a history of modernization and of stable government. Not so in Afghanistan, where they never had a stable central government, and where the people are mostly rural, illiterate and hyper-religious.

If you think we could have done a better job nation building there, then please explain how. Preferably with specifics.

We actually did nation building in Afghanistan. Every aspect of their infrastructure is vastly improved. We just don't want the Taliban to have it. Maybe we can start another bitter civil war so they can blow the fuck out of it, again, like the early 90's.

 

[feralkid]

Meanwhile, Hillary Clinton is still peddling her influence to do non-deplorable things:

Great, straight from the hands of the Taliban into the mouths of the Lizard People.

 

[brycejones]

Meanwhile, Hillary Clinton is still peddling her influence to do non-deplorable things:

Feminist virtue signaling. ‘/s

next on Tucker ->

Is Hillary Clinton flying senior terrorists to the US? Who are the Clinton’s really after? Are they really women? We’re just asking questions.

 

[UNCjigga]

Feminist virtue signaling. ‘/s

next on Tucker ->

Is Hillary Clinton flying senior terrorists to the US? Who are the Clinton’s really after? Are they really women? We’re just asking questions.

You forgot “what does she REALLY want with the children????”

 

[Z15CAM]

100% of the American young men did not know the meaning of the Vietnam War other then it was a war to save the Vietnam People from Communism when all the Vietnamese wanted is to take back their own country after 100rd's of years of occupation. China, Japan, French and the Americans - I personally blame the French for the Vietnam War.

Here's a very good story teller of an American GI RE: The Vietnam War:

Glad Canada had nothing to do with the Vietnam War other then we accepted hundreds of thousands of Vietnam Boat People. I fel in love with a Vietnamese Girl but the cultural exchange was not compatible in the late 60's ;o(

brycejones:

We had 7 fucking years to organize a strategic withdrawal. The US has been pulling troops and equipment out of Afghanistan for years now. This isn't a surprise to anyone you drunk fuck.

By the way I reported you to administration - You are a typical example of an Ignorant American using unwarranted fowl language with no knowledge of History - I hate getting into Political Crap - but this one takes the cake.

 

[Amol S.]

No, that is wrong. We were able to successfully nation build in Germany and Japan because those countries had a history of modernization and of stable government. Not so in Afghanistan, where they never had a stable central government, and where the people are mostly rural, illiterate and hyper-religious.

If you think we could have done a better job nation building there, then please explain how. Preferably with specifics.

Their government gives monthly bonus paycheck to those soldiers that show up to job post. Their government gives another monthly bonus check to a soldier for every month they kill 25 terrorists. Their government gives everyone who opens up a publicly traded company in the country, a national medal. The US funds the democratic afghan government to create a large glass manufacturing plant, there is a lot of sand (Si2O) in the Afghan desert. Build a (50 foot high, 3 foot thick) stainless steel border wall on the Afghan-Pakistan border. Create a ravine behind the wall, filled with poisonous snakes and alligators, as a backup in the event of the wall being breached.

 

[Jaskalas]

Something tells me you might want to go research what nation-building means. Neither the US/NATO are responsible for vetting, investigating, judging, being the jury, and/or choosing their leadership, that is on the Afghan people, and really has nothing to do with nation-building.

Of course America would be giddy with the notion of bootstraps. For their own people, and other nations.

How were they supposed to do all that without a compatible culture? We set them up to fail by imposing our ideas of what a government and security force should be. They needed a strong central military control structure. Not a Democracy. They need protection and education. Security over which, generations later, they could evolve into something more Democratic. It is a multi step process from tribal roots. You cannot just grant them freedom over night an expect anything in return. You need 50-100 years of strict military control to form a new culture, a new nation.

We failed them by building for them a lie. It is 2021 and the harsh winds of reality blew our lie away. There was no Afghan government. It never had control over the country. You pull back the curtain and Afghanistan was Taliban all along.

The loss of Afghanistan is on us, for being as stupid as we are.

 

[woolfe9998]

Their government gives monthly bonus paycheck to those soldiers that show up to job post. Their government gives another monthly bonus check for every month a soldier kills 25 terrorists. Their government gives everyone who opens up a publicly traded company in the country, a national medal. The US funds the democratic afghan government to create a large glass manufacturing plant, there is a lot of sand (Si2O) in the Afghan desert. Build a (50 foot high, 3 foot thick) stainless steel border wall on the Afghan-Pakistan border. Create a ravine behind the wall, filled with poisonous snakes and alligators, as a backup in the event of the wall being breached.

Don't know if this is serious or not, but their government had no money to pay their soldiers without the US and its allies funding their entire national government. They have no ability to collect taxes outside of Kabul. Because they are too decentralized and the culture is too tribal. Basically we've been paying their troops all this time and they had reason to believe the paychecks would dry up after we left.

 

[Z15CAM]

Some very thoughtful and considerate post here then there are some that are NOT !

I hate the term "WE" in this forum as if it only applies to Americans of the United State Citizens on the World stage. The whole of the North and South American content are Americans whether "WE" be Brazilian, Mexican, US or Canadian... etc

Get over it - There are a lot of Americans then just United State Citizens. The United States of America does not speak for all Nations on the 2 American Continents. The definition of the Americas the American continent, including North, South, and Central America a land stretching from sea to sea.

 

[HurleyBird]

No, that is wrong. We were able to successfully nation build in Germany and Japan because those countries had a history of modernization and of stable government. Not so in Afghanistan, where they never had a stable central government, and where the people are mostly rural, illiterate and hyper-religious.

The most relevant factor is literacy. Americans in 1776 were rural and hyper-religious, and formed a robust democracy. Yes, Germany and Japan were closer culturally and thus much easier to direct (and also contrite in their loss, which helped).

If you think we could have done a better job nation building there, then please explain how. Preferably with specifics.

It would be difficult to do worse a job, but sure, I'll humor you. This list is neither fully inclusive or exclusive.

1) Much less, as close to 0 focus as is practicable really, on hunting "insurgents" and "terrorists." The more of this you engage in, the more of it you create. Change the entire focus away from making war on terror.

2) Instead, look out for anyone who is making life difficult for other Afghans. Eg. the robber barons, or for a specific example, an army officer who is enriching himself on his subordinates pay. Come down as hard on them as your conscience will allow, up to "making them disappear" or long sentences in labor camps. Focus on general corruption too, but primarily on corruption that specifically hurts Afghans.

3) Infrastructure. Build a first world electrical grid. Provide free internet access, satellite in remote areas.

4) Buy 2 laptops for every Afghan (overhead for the inevitable theft), and distribute. Do this every five years or so. Preinstall software to teach basic literacy.

5) Education is the foundation of everything. Focus on building schools and staff them with a mix of American and Afghan teachers. Immediately provide carrots (eg. monetary rewards for sending kids to school, for getting good grades), and eventually add sticks (punishments for not sending kids to school). Teach English.

6) Provide public access to American media.

7) Don't use contracting companies to train police and security forces. Train them similar to how you would their American equivalents (eg. actual drill sergeants, police instructors), assuming you do this at all.

8) Don't try to form a fully functioning democracy over night. Give yourself a veto over everything. Retain the power to expel corrupt officials and use it liberally. But set a hard deadline for when these powers expire.

9) Install your own judges, importing Islamic American lawyers. Some judges can remain local, but the higher courts should be disproportionately Americans. As time goes on, pull back on this.

 

[sportage]

Wow. Fox actually said "this is not Biden's fault". Fox blamed 20+ years of failed policy under administration after administration. WTF is going on over there at Fox, have they been kidnapped? 😵