Why are we even involved in Libia?

[jonks]

"Angelina Jolie with an air force."

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2011/03/libya-makes-strange-bedfellows.html

Now that's funny.

 

[werepossum]

Seems like the rebel leaders are more secular Islamic than fundamental Islamic "westerners with Libyan roots and western roots.."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12776418

#
2013: Bernard-Henri Levy avoids saying whether or not he told French President Nicolas Sarkozy to recognise the rebel Transitional National Council as the sole legitimate representative of the Libyan people: "I don't know if I told him. But it was my opinion. When I came back from Benghazi, it was crystal clear for me that the only legitimate representatives of Libya today, and of the whole of Libya, was these guys. They are westerners with Libyan roots and western roots, and are bridges between England, France, America and Libya. They are democrats and secular, and opposed to any sort of terrorism."
#
2007: The French philosopher, Bernard Henri-Levy, tells the BBC about the Libyan rebels: "I met the rebels in Benghazi, I met them Brega, I met them in Bayda. I spoke at length with the main figures with the Transitional National Council. Firstly, they stand for secular Islam, and not fundamental Islam. Among the 11 whom I know, and are known, no-one belongs to the Muslim Brotherhood or anything like that. Secondly, they are favourable to a sort of democracy. It will not be a Churchillian democracy overnight, of course, but it will be a step forward. This step forward, this move to democracy, in a country that has been broken by 42 years of dictatorship, will be a blessing. Thirdly, I think they represent all of Libya. Inside the council, you have members who come from tribes faithful to Gaddafi, and even the tribe of Gaddafi himself."

To me, one of the things that makes me hopeful about Libya is that this rebellion is across tribal lines. Tribalism is a sure road to dictatorship, and the sooner countries move away from it, the better.

"Angelina Jolie with an air force."

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2011/03/libya-makes-strange-bedfellows.html

Now that's funny.

Indeed. But nothing like this can be argued in Congress beforehand; that's why we have the War Powers Act. That we have a President and Vice-President who have argued against precisely this (and a huge number of liberals willing to accept why THIS TIME is completely different) doesn't change the fact that sometimes, only a rapid response is useful. Congress still has to authorize the intervention and may even defund it before his time runs out, and this adventure may yet end in disaster. But until all that happens, I'll assume the Messiah acted properly given the information at his disposal, and certainly he acted within his authority. The fact that he and Biden argued against this with Bush is doubly amusing considering that Bush never did this, but evidence of politicians' hypocrisy is just that - merely amusing.

 

[Munky]

Let's see. The US is in Libya bombing the crap out of Gadaffi Duck's troops with help from some countries who wouldn't have gotten involved unless the US, at least initially, took the lead role, and I'm the one with my head up my ass?

Yeah, I'm still laughing at you, fool. Your blindered, spasmodic-patella denial is a fucking riot.

Is there a point to your verbal diarrhea? That's like saying the US is invading the hell out of Iraq and Afghanistan.... now tell me something I don't know, boy. Starting with why the US is wasting resources bombing Lybia when the US was never under threat of attack.

 

[bfdd]

Don't trip. We're not trying to force out Ghaddafi, that would splinter our alliance. We're just trying to blow him up so we can force him out. Wait what? lol at all the idiots I'm reading fawning over Obama's recent speech. What a joke.

 

[Pocatello]

Don't trip. We're not trying to force out Ghaddafi, that would splinter our alliance. We're just trying to blow him up so we can force him out. Wait what? lol at all the idiots I'm reading fawning over Obama's recent speech. What a joke.

Ah, a politician trying to please everyone, is pleasing nobody.

 

[OutHouse]

horrible speech. so basically a UN resolution has more influence than our constitution.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Secular Islam. That is the funniest thing I've ever heard.

 

[Doppel]

horrible speech. so basically a UN resolution has more influence than our constitution.

Well it could have been worse. I liked "It was not in our national interest to let that happen. I refused to let that happen." I got from it ultimately that he just didn't like it and, well, he controls the military so that's that.

But then I'm biased as I agree with the "kinetic military action". In the world I wish to live in people look beyond borders and act at times when selfish motivations are not the only, obvious motivations.

This could turn into a cluster f**k there is absolutely no doubt about it, but I am dare I say proud that the world stepped up to the plate on this one. And I won't pretend there isn't hypocrisy, maybe it should have stepped in many other times, but this time it did something.

I predict this week to be a dire one for Gadhafi. I think a strong chance he ends up dead (unlikely) imprisoned (maybe) or sipping cocktails in exile somewhere else (maybe).

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Is there a point to your verbal diarrhea? That's like saying the US is invading the hell out of Iraq and Afghanistan.... now tell me something I don't know, boy. Starting with why the US is wasting resources bombing Lybia when the US was never under threat of attack.

wtf are you on about now? More of your throwing shit at the wall posting style? You're making no sense. Come back when you have something sensible to say, little punk.

 

[bfdd]

Well it could have been worse. I liked "It was not in our national interest to let that happen. I refused to let that happen." I got from it ultimately that he just didn't like it and, well, he controls the military so that's that.

But then I'm biased as I agree with the "kinetic military action". In the world I wish to live in people look beyond borders and act at times when selfish motivations are not the only, obvious motivations.

This could turn into a cluster f**k there is absolutely no doubt about it, but I am dare I say proud that the world stepped up to the plate on this one. And I won't pretend there isn't hypocrisy, maybe it should have stepped in many other times, but this time it did something.

I predict this week to be a dire one for Gadhafi. I think a strong chance he ends up dead (unlikely) imprisoned (maybe) or sipping cocktails in exile somewhere else (maybe).

I don't give a fuck about the reasons so much as I do about the double speak and the avoidance of the truth. Don't say in one breath "We're not trying to force regime change" then in the next say you're willing to do whatever is required to back up the rebels, whose entire goal is forced regime change. That's asinine. So is the denial and avoidance of fessing up to the hypocritical shit that is going on.

People were absolutely livid over shit a few years ago, I see no reason for them not to be livid now.

 

[Doppel]

I don't give a fuck about the reasons so much as I do about the double speak and the avoidance of the truth. Don't say in one breath "We're not trying to force regime change" then in the next say you're willing to do whatever is required to back up the rebels, whose entire goal is forced regime change. That's asinine. So is the denial and avoidance of fessing up to the hypocritical shit that is going on.

People were absolutely livid over shit a few years ago, I see no reason for them not to be livid now.

Yeah that's gov they are bullsh*ters. For all I know there are proven reserves under Tripoli, but until then let me delude myself, please, that it was for selfless reasons.

 

[bamacre]

Is he officially a neoconservative now?

 

[OutHouse]

the bold face lie was "no American boots on the ground" If people don't think Delta or other SF are not operating inside Libya then they dont have a clue.

 

[BoberFett]

Is he officially a neoconservative now?

Was he ever NOT a neocon?

LOL. Democrats.

 

[Minjin]

I thought it was a very solid speech and one that convinced me (I previously didn't think we should have been involved).

 

[Doppel]

the bold face lie was "no American boots on the ground" If people don't think Delta or other SF are not operating inside Libya then they dont have a clue.

Disagree. What proof do you have that there are any US boots on the ground? And stepping off a chopper to pick up a pilot from a crashed plane doesn't count. What operations are Delta engaged in now? What have they done? Zilch.

 

[bfdd]

I thought it was a very solid speech and one that convinced me (I previously didn't think we should have been involved).

The part about us not being there to force regime change, but there to force regime change stood up to your test of merit huh?

 

[Minjin]

The part about us not being there to force regime change, but there to force regime change stood up to your test of merit huh?

That isn't what he said. He said that an Iraq style situation is not what they want. The military actions are to protect the rebels and let them do all the hard work if they are willing (and able). He said that they have regime change as a goal but only via non-military methods.

 

[bfdd]

That isn't what he said. He said that an Iraq style situation is not what they want. The military actions are to protect the rebels and let them do all the hard work if they are willing (and able). He said that they have regime change as a goal but only via non-military methods.

He said we aren't there to force regime change, we're just there to make sure the rebels have a fighting chance. Which is saying we back the rebels, we want the rebels to win, we back their cause. Their cause is the forced regime change of Ghaddafi. That means we are for the forced regime change of Ghaddafi. How the fuck does that not make sense to you? That entire speech was a ton of double-speak meant to confuse idiots. I guess it worked.

Add to the fact that numerous Western leaders have come out and said Ghaddafi has to go, INCLUDING US, France and the UK. The three leading the charge. The only course of action we have is to remove Ghaddafi. We talked shit and now have to back it up. Sucks for us, I just wish our leaders wouldn't bullshit with us. What happened to all that transparency we were supposed to get with this administration? Keep following the carrot, you'll get it eventually.

 

[OutHouse]

Disagree. What proof do you have that there are any US boots on the ground? And stepping off a chopper to pick up a pilot from a crashed plane doesn't count. What operations are Delta engaged in now? What have they done? Zilch.

anytime and i mean anytime we have planes dropping bombs on hostile targets we have boots on the ground. how do i know this? 10 years in the air force and knowing a few Tac-P's

 

[MiniDoom]

loliberals...

 

[Minjin]

He said we aren't there to force regime change, we're just there to make sure the rebels have a fighting chance. Which is saying we back the rebels, we want the rebels to win, we back their cause. Their cause is the forced regime change of Ghaddafi. That means we are for the forced regime change of Ghaddafi. How the fuck does that not make sense to you? That entire speech was a ton of double-speak meant to confuse idiots. I guess it worked.

Add to the fact that numerous Western leaders have come out and said Ghaddafi has to go, INCLUDING US, France and the UK. The three leading the charge. The only course of action we have is to remove Ghaddafi. We talked shit and now have to back it up. Sucks for us, I just wish our leaders wouldn't bullshit with us. What happened to all that transparency we were supposed to get with this administration? Keep following the carrot, you'll get it eventually.

What exactly is the point of insulting me?

 

[bfdd]

What exactly is the point of insulting me?

To let you know you've been had. If I didn't insult your intelligence, you would think you made an intelligent decision. By voicing the exact opposite and quite bluntly at you, you will hopefully get some doubt about it and rethink it. Regardless of the fact of either of us being right. Plus, it's quite easy for us idiots to spot our own kind.

 

[Minjin]

To let you know you've been had. If I didn't insult your intelligence, you would think you made an intelligent decision. By voicing the exact opposite and quite bluntly at you, you will hopefully get some doubt about it and rethink it. Regardless of the fact of either of us being right. Plus, it's quite easy for us idiots to spot our own kind.

You're not insulting my intelligence, you're simply insulting me as a person and I don't see the reason why. Normally, in a discussion with two people, one might get frustrated that they are losing or not getting through to the other person and it may turn to ad hominen attacks. But after one post? You appear to be an angry person that just likes to insult people. I'd recommend some introspection.

It didn't make me doubt in the slightest. In fact, I stopped reading when I hit the first insult, then scanned till I found the second one. Insults are how conversations end, not how they start, and it certainly isn't how you get your point across.

 

[bfdd]

You're not insulting my intelligence, you're simply insulting me as a person and I don't see the reason why. Normally, in a discussion with two people, one might get frustrated that they are losing or not getting through to the other person and it may turn to ad hominen attacks. But after one post? You appear to be an angry person that just likes to insult people. I'd recommend some introspection.

I did insult your intelligence. That's what calling someone an idiot is. Unless you're not sure of the definition of an idiot. I'm neither frustrated nor angry nor hateful, I just like to point out bullshit. If you're going to fall hook line and sinker for it, I'm going to call you on it too. If you ever feel like calling me on my bullshit, go right ahead.