Why are we even involved in Libia?

[Broheim]

If this was a military coup things wouldn't have escalated to this.

the majority of the regular army has sided with the rebels, but the Libyan army is just poorly trained and equipped with rubbish leadership, Gaddafi made sure of this... that way the army can't overthrow him.

 

[BladeVenom]

So when will Biden be calling for impeachment? LOLOL.

LOL! So when is Biden going to ask for Obama to be impeached?

"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation." -Obama, 2007

 

[Fern]

Link

It was the Arab league that was pushing for intervention in Libya. "Setup a no fly zone".

As America's NATO allies shoulder a greater share of the mission in Libya, the Arab countries that urged the U.N. Security Council to impose a no-fly zone are missing from the action.

Now that it has happened, they are having second thoughts.
And only one of 23 countries that make up the League is actually doing anything.

This way, the UN/NATO collects all the blame when things go wrong and people are killed.

Aside from the pullout of the Arab League, looks like there is assive disagreement among the NATO countries involved, some like Germany and Norway have pulled out. Turkey has withdrawn any permission for the hostilities etc.

Somebody posted a long list of countries involved in Libya, that's looks to have been a fraud. Most news accounts show there are really only 3 countries actually doing anything - USA, France and Britian.

The French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, has opposed handing over control of the military operation in Libya to Nato, saying the move would send the wrong message to Arab nations.

At a meeting of the North Atlantic Council, Nato's decision-making committee on Monday, the French representative reportedly stormed out after being accused of hindering Nato's involvement in the campaign. France had flatly refused to agree to the proposal, which was later agreed by a majority of member countries.

The German representative is also reported to have left the meeting after his country was criticised for not wanting to get involved.

Turkey, angered that the French president had failed to invite it to Saturday's summit in Paris, refused to give carte blanche for a no-fly zone over Libya.

However, after Monday's meeting, Norway said it was "suspending' participation of its F-16 fighter jets, which had already arrived in Italy before flying on to Crete, until it had "a clarification of the command [structure]".

This unprecedented, three-pronged command is reflected in the different names for the operation: The French are calling it Harmattan (the name of a hot wind that blows over the Sahara); in Britain, it is Operation Ellamy; and in the US, it is Odyssey Dawn.

Le Nouvel Observateur magazine described it as "a boat without a captain".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/22/sarkozy-nato-libya-france

-Tensions with Britain as Gates rebukes UK government over suggestion Gaddafi could be assassinated

-French propose a new political 'committee' to oversee operations

-Germany pulls equipment out of NATO coalition over disagreement over campaign's direction

-Italians accuse French of backing NATO in exchange for oil contracts

-No-fly zone called into question after first wave of strikes 'neutralises' Libyan military machine

-U.K. ministers say war could last '30 years'

-Italy to 'take back control' of bases used by allies unless NATO leadership put in charge of the mission

-Russians tell U.S. to stop bombing in order to protect civilians - calls bombing a 'crusade'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...forces-NATO-Libyan-coalition-falls-apart.html

Looks like a fustercluck has developed.

I watched an Obama spokesman last night claim Obama was the one who led by pulling the coalition together. Firstly, all of us who aren't Obama diehards know he was basically dragged into this, so given that reality plus the obvious lack of any agreement among the parties to run around claiming some kind of leadership acheivement here seems highly questionable - could backfire.

I bet many Dems are supremely thankful that this is happening now instead of in 2012.

Fern

 

[Atheus]

Just heard on the radio that a French jet flying CAP downed a Libyan plane, which makes me worry a bit less that the US will be carrying all (or nearly all) of the load.

The US is supplying only a fraction of millitary forces involved. France and the UK are the only ones with carriers in the area for a start.

 

[Fern]

Perhaps not, once we understand the complete story.


Qaddafi built fortune, regime on shady dealings
'Deal with the Devil': American and international firms paid millions in 'signing bonuses', made partnerships with ruling family
By ERIC LICHTBLAU, DAVID ROHDE and JAMES RISEN
The New York Times
Published: March 24, 2011

WASHINGTON— In 2009, top aides to Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi called together 15 executives from global energy companies operating in Libya’s oil fields and issued an extraordinary demand: Shell out the money for his country’s $1.5 billion bill for its role in the downing of Pan Am Flight 103 and other terrorist attacks.

If the companies did not comply, the Libyan officials warned, there would be “serious consequences” for their oil leases, according to a State Department summary of the meeting.
-snip-

So, we're attacking Libya because they're trying to extort Big Oil companies?

I don't whether to laugh or cry, or do both.

Heck, the progressives/libs want to extort Big Oil companies too.

OTOH, those progressive/libs should be going crazy about 'corporatism' and our military fighting to protect "Big Oil".

If this is the real cause, the whole incomprehensible "humanitarian" thingy is a fraud.

Crazy stuff.

Fern

 

[werepossum]

Aside from the pullout of the Arab League, looks like there is assive disagreement among the NATO countries involved, some like Germany and Norway have pulled out. Turkey has withdrawn any permission for the hostilities etc.

Somebody posted a long list of countries involved in Libya, that's looks to have been a fraud. Most news accounts show there are really only 3 countries actually doing anything - USA, France and Britian.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/22/sarkozy-nato-libya-france

Looks like a fustercluck has developed.

I watched an Obama spokesman last night claim Obama was the one who led by pulling the coalition together. Firstly, all of us who aren't Obama diehards know he was basically dragged into this, so given that reality plus the obvious lack of any agreement among the parties to run around claiming some kind of leadership acheivement here seems highly questionable - could backfire.

I bet many Dems are supremely thankful that this is happening now instead of in 2012.

Fern

Okay, Operation Odyssey Dawn is just gay - but I guess that's okay now. Makes me think of a mother screaming across a trailer park. "Odyssey Dawn, get your ass off the swing and go get Mama some Marlboros!"

This is indeed a fustercluck, but it's understandable considering the contradiction in needing to get many countries with disparate interests and sensibilities moving in one direction, and needing to act while acting is still at least theoretically useful.

 

[Fern]

The US is supplying only a fraction of millitary forces involved. France and the UK are the only ones with carriers in the area for a start.

A "fraction"?

US: B-2 stealth bombers; EA-18G Growler and AV-8B Harrier aircraft; destroyers USS Barry and USS Stout firing Tomahawk cruise missiles; amphibious assault ship USS Kearsage; command and control vessel USS Mount Whitney; submarines

As far as carriers, it may be that we don't need them; instead we can operate out of nearby NATO base. Some of those more familiar with military stuff will know.

But nowhere do I see any evidence that the US is doing only a "fraction".

Fern

 

[Scotteq]

Large fraction

 

[Broheim]

A "fraction"?



As far as carriers, it may be that we don't need them; instead we can operate out of nearby NATO base. Some of those more familiar with military stuff will know.

But nowhere do I see any evidence that the US is doing only a "fraction".

Fern

carriers aren't needed, there are NATO air bases within striking distance of Libya, Denmark for instance has aircrafts operating out of Sicily.

Navy vessels are there to enforce the weapons embargo.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Large fraction

Very large fraction...

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

"Why are we even involved in Libia?"

Good question...Robert Gates (Defense Secretary), Adm. Mike Mullen (Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff), and William Daley (White House chief of staff) all argued against a no-fly zone in Libya.

In the Washington Post, retired US Army Gen. Wesley Clark, NATO's former supreme allied commander in Europe, argued against US intervention in Libya.

“To me, it seems we have no clear basis for action,” he wrote. “Whatever resources we dedicate for a no-fly zone would probably be too little, too late. We would once again be committing our military to force regime change in a Muslim land, even though we can't quite bring ourselves to say it. So let's recognize that the basic requirements for successful intervention simply don't exist, at least not yet: We don't have a clearly stated objective, legal authority, committed international support or adequate on-the-scene military capabilities, and Libya's politics hardly foreshadow a clear outcome.”

“We should have learned these lessons from our long history of intervention,” Gen. Clark concluded. “We don't need Libya to offer us a refresher course in past mistakes.”

 

[Fern]

Okay, Operation Odyssey Dawn is just gay - but I guess that's okay now. Makes me think of a mother screaming across a trailer park. "Odyssey Dawn, get your ass off the swing and go get Mama some Marlboros!"-snip-

LOL

Fern

 

[ayabe]

Okay, Operation Odyssey Dawn is just gay - but I guess that's okay now. Makes me think of a mother screaming across a trailer park. "Odyssey Dawn, get your ass off the swing and go get Mama some Marlboros!"

This is indeed a fustercluck, but it's understandable considering the contradiction in needing to get many countries with disparate interests and sensibilities moving in one direction, and needing to act while acting is still at least theoretically useful.

Almost right, you forgot the 6th grade phonetic spelling.

Oddessie Dawwn.

The operation in Libya is similar to Gulf War I - British interests are threatened - in this case business(namely BP) instead of geopolitical(British promise to defend Kuwait) and they can't do it alone so they're calling in a favor from us - since we still in debt to them over Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Brits have had a number of shady dealing with Ghaddifi, including getting paid off to release that fucking murderer Abdelbaset al-Megrahi, it's in their interest to see him dead and buried so more of this type of stuff doesn't get out.

Of course there's France - which has interests there as well though not as extensive as Britain - I think they're just pretending to be important again since Germany doesn't want to be a part. That's just an EU big dog pissing contest.

 

[BladeVenom]

Another great video of Joe Biden, saying basically the same thing again. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dRFJ6CF2Mw He doesn't use words lightly, LOL!

 

[bfdd]

lol.... so when are we going to start protesting Obama and his administrations actions? I mean I'm sure some people kept their No Blood for Oil posters so they are already prepared.

 

[SphinxnihpS]

It's a freaking civil war. everyone should stay out and leave them be.

i cant believe that a UN sanctioned 'no fly zone' is just a thinly veiled action to overthrow Kadaffi.

also, why did Russia and China go agree to it?


edit:
also, how does a 'no fly zone' translate into us bombing vehicle convoys?!

I know this sounds trite now, but I truly believe you learn more from your enemies, and I firmly believe with all my heart, that this is the country from which we are going to finally learn how to spell.

 

[Nebor]

Almost right, you forgot the 6th grade phonetic spelling.

Oddessie Dawwn.

The operation in Libya is similar to Gulf War I - British interests are threatened - in this case business(namely BP) instead of geopolitical(British promise to defend Kuwait) and they can't do it alone so they're calling in a favor from us - since we still in debt to them over Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Brits have had a number of shady dealing with Ghaddifi, including getting paid off to release that fucking murderer Abdelbaset al-Megrahi, it's in their interest to see him dead and buried so more of this type of stuff doesn't get out.

Of course there's France - which has interests there as well though not as extensive as Britain - I think they're just pretending to be important again since Germany doesn't want to be a part. That's just an EU big dog pissing contest.

Also consider the damage done to our relations with England and France in the wake of the Wikileaks scandal. We traded British nuclear secrets to the Russians. We kind of owe them one.

 

[bfdd]

While we shouldn't have traded British nuclear secrets, we don't owe them a goddamn thing.

 

[Nebor]

While we shouldn't have traded British nuclear secrets, we don't owe them a goddamn thing.

Er, they kinda had our back in Iraq.

 

[BladeVenom]

"the Constitution requires Congress to authorize war. I do not believe that the President can take military action – including any kind of strategic bombing – against Iran without congressional authorization." -Hillary Clinton
http://www.boston.com/news/politics/2008/specials/CandidateQA/ClintonQA/

 

[bfdd]

Er, they kinda had our back in Iraq.

And we kind of had their back in WW2 and WW1. Your point? We don't owe the English anything. No offense to our resident Englishmen, but we don't exactly have a great history together.

 

[Nebor]

And we kind of had their back in WW2 and WW1. Your point? We don't owe the English anything. No offense to our resident Englishmen, but we don't exactly have a great history together.

Our resident Englishmen? Do we have any that aren't raging tool bags? Neckbeard is just an off the charts uber troll, and JoS is some kid in his mom's basement making up lies about being in the god damn Special Air Service (like claiming to be a Navy SEAL.)

 

[bfdd]

Nebor, that doesn't mean I'm trying to offend them with what I'm saying. I don't have much an issue with JoS, regardless of what he really is, and well neckbeard I think we all know where I stand with him.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

JoS is some kid in his mom's basement making up lies about being in the god damn Special Air Service (like claiming to be a Navy SEAL.)

Ohhhhh now you done it!!! JEDIYoda is going to tell you that he knows JoS personally and that's he truly a SAS soldier.

 

[pcgeek11]

Also consider the damage done to our relations with England and France in the wake of the Wikileaks scandal. We traded British nuclear secrets to the Russians. We kind of owe them one.

No. We didn't. We gave the soviets the Serial Numbers of the missiles. This is only the delivery vehicle and has nothing nuclear about it. Oh and the missiles belong to the US and are only leased by Britain.

Just so ya know the facts.