Wherever people congregate in great numbers you see the rapid development of liberal thinking. Conservative are all about insularity and the preservation of tribal thinking. They are the small town stifled mind. The Internet is huge and rapidly changing. New braincells are developing all the time to flex with the flow. That is what it means to be a liberal, to comprehend today, to integrate and process masses of data. A conservative on the Internet is a guy who has been off line a week. A conservative on the hurricane Internet is like an oak and a liberal like a willow. The oak gets blown over or cracks.
ProfJohn, what kinds of behavior do you consider to be leftist? Could you give us some examples?
GoPackGo
Diamond Member
- Oct 10, 2003
- 6,453
- 525
- 126
Left-Wing:
Social Security
Political Correctness
Todays "Tolerance"
Todays "Diversity"
Social Security was a bad idea whose time for an end has come. Many people probably don't realize that before the 1930s there was not Social Security.
Political Correctness has caused people to grow to thin a skin and make people lawsuit happy.
Tolerance - when people call for tolerance what they really want is acceptance.
Diversity - Only if it fits an agenda.
Social Security
Political Correctness
Todays "Tolerance"
Todays "Diversity"
Social Security was a bad idea whose time for an end has come. Many people probably don't realize that before the 1930s there was not Social Security.
Political Correctness has caused people to grow to thin a skin and make people lawsuit happy.
Tolerance - when people call for tolerance what they really want is acceptance.
Diversity - Only if it fits an agenda.
Does the younger generation tend to vote for more liberal canadiates? I thought one of the failures of the Democratic Party during the 2004 election was the over estimation of how they thought young people would flock to the voting booths and vote for Kerry. Quite the opposite happenend actually, Bush got the higher percentage of America's voting youth.
I heard this from a student from one of my political science classes last year, I have absolutely no idea if it's true or not.
I heard this from a student from one of my political science classes last year, I have absolutely no idea if it's true or not.
I don't support the Democrats, they are bumbling, corrupt, appeasers, and pander to the uneducated and shiftless.
I don't support the Republicans, they are bumbling, corrupt, profiteers, and pander to the uneducated and radical fundamentalists.
I complain about Republicans here more than Democrats because they are the ones in control and the ones mostly responsible for the erosion of civil rights and uncontrolled spending over the last six years, as well as for getting more Americans killed than died in 9/11. They also refuse to take responsibility for their mistakes and admit their faults.
When the pendulum swings back and the people start listening to the Democrats' promises of free bread and circuses instead of the Republicans' promises to stop the boogeyman and keep gays "in their place" I'll be criticising Democrats just as harshly.
Not that I'm cynical about our two-party winner-take-all system
I don't support the Republicans, they are bumbling, corrupt, profiteers, and pander to the uneducated and radical fundamentalists.
I complain about Republicans here more than Democrats because they are the ones in control and the ones mostly responsible for the erosion of civil rights and uncontrolled spending over the last six years, as well as for getting more Americans killed than died in 9/11. They also refuse to take responsibility for their mistakes and admit their faults.
When the pendulum swings back and the people start listening to the Democrats' promises of free bread and circuses instead of the Republicans' promises to stop the boogeyman and keep gays "in their place" I'll be criticising Democrats just as harshly.
Not that I'm cynical about our two-party winner-take-all system
Actually, I think it's toned down quite a bit. It's a shame TasteLikeChicken and CsG got themselves banned. Or was it CadKindaguy?
Based on the level of attacks I receive I can see how a conservative poster would give up and leave after a few months in order to find a more ?balanced? forum.
We all hate ourselves and put downs is how we got that way. Everybody puts everybody else down because of that self hate. They want you to hate yourself too and feel just as bad as they do. If you realize deeply, if you relive the terrible pain you have been made to feel, you will see that you were sold a total lie. There is nothing at all wrong with you or anybody else and all the insult you feel from them is only the adumbration of that ancient pain you were made to feel. When you see, when you relive and know you were sold a lie, nothing anybody can say about you will ever hurt again. In the mean time, it helps to know that all our pain is self generated. People really do want to hurt you for not thinking like them, and that is sad, but you don't have to buy into the game. You can feel the pain and know it's not really then that hurts, but that they touch an older pain. Knowing that you can step our of the game and laugh. You have always been OK. God was created in your deepest image.
We all hate ourselves and put downs is how we got that way. Everybody puts everybody else down because of that self hate. They want you to hate yourself too and feel just as bad as they do. If you realize deeply, if you relive the terrible pain you have been made to feel, you will see that you were sold a total lie. There is nothing at all wrong with you or anybody else and all the insult you feel from them is only the adumbration of that ancient pain you were made to feel. When you see, when you relive and know you were sold a lie, nothing anybody can say about you will ever hurt again. In the mean time, it helps to know that all our pain is self generated. People really do want to hurt you for not thinking like them, and that is sad, but you don't have to buy into the game. You can feel the pain and know it's not really then that hurts, but that they touch an older pain. Knowing that you can step our of the game and laugh. You have always been OK. God was created in your deepest image.
- Jul 28, 2006
- 18,161
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- 0
CellarDoor, it is not being opposed to Bush that I object too. It is the very large number of people on here who parrot the impeach, lied us to war, treason, war criminal etc etc that gives this board its very left view. look at the almost daily "bash Bush" threads.
You are probably right on the vocalness of the left. They are FAR more vocal, and sadly far more personal in their attacks.
I would actually see myself as only being a little to the right. I am a fiscal conservative, not a religious one. I have no problem with gay rights, except the term "gay marriage" I am on the fence on the stem cell issue, show me that we might actually cure something with embryonic cells.
I am rather libertarian, without the pro-drug, defense starts at the board views.
Here is an example of what I think is happening.
Spending: I defend Bush and the Republicans on spending. That is not because I am happy about their spending habits, FAR from it. However, I believe that Democrats in power will be even WORSE. Might be an irrational thought on my behalf, but based on history I don't trust Democrats on spending. To back this up, Democrat are the party of big government and government programs. There is a not a problem in this country that the Democrats don't think the government can solve.
Defense: I do NOT trust the Democrats at all on defense. I will agree that Iraq is a total mess and while I thought going into Iraq was the right thing to do, in a way I wish we hadn't, only because of the mess it has become. Anyone who pays attention will know that I have been saying for at least a month now that post election we will some changes in our policy, the ground work is already being laid.
Why I don't trust the Democrats. To me the Democrats are still to much the party of appeasement. "If we only talked to North Korea maybe we can make a deal" Reality is we tried that and it didn't work. Democrats have far to much of a history of backing down in the face of evil. I could dig up and post historical point after point.
I could go on, but why bore everyone
The point is, I defend the Republicans not so much because I support them 100%, but because I believe that they will do a better job overall on all the issues that matter to me.
Ps. P&N would be FAR FAR better without the personal attacks. Especially the people who only seem to be capable of posting personal attacks, or who end every post with an attack on someone.
You are probably right on the vocalness of the left. They are FAR more vocal, and sadly far more personal in their attacks.
I would actually see myself as only being a little to the right. I am a fiscal conservative, not a religious one. I have no problem with gay rights, except the term "gay marriage" I am on the fence on the stem cell issue, show me that we might actually cure something with embryonic cells.
I am rather libertarian, without the pro-drug, defense starts at the board views.
Here is an example of what I think is happening.
Spending: I defend Bush and the Republicans on spending. That is not because I am happy about their spending habits, FAR from it. However, I believe that Democrats in power will be even WORSE. Might be an irrational thought on my behalf, but based on history I don't trust Democrats on spending. To back this up, Democrat are the party of big government and government programs. There is a not a problem in this country that the Democrats don't think the government can solve.
Defense: I do NOT trust the Democrats at all on defense. I will agree that Iraq is a total mess and while I thought going into Iraq was the right thing to do, in a way I wish we hadn't, only because of the mess it has become. Anyone who pays attention will know that I have been saying for at least a month now that post election we will some changes in our policy, the ground work is already being laid.
Why I don't trust the Democrats. To me the Democrats are still to much the party of appeasement. "If we only talked to North Korea maybe we can make a deal" Reality is we tried that and it didn't work. Democrats have far to much of a history of backing down in the face of evil. I could dig up and post historical point after point.
I could go on, but why bore everyone
The point is, I defend the Republicans not so much because I support them 100%, but because I believe that they will do a better job overall on all the issues that matter to me.
Ps. P&N would be FAR FAR better without the personal attacks. Especially the people who only seem to be capable of posting personal attacks, or who end every post with an attack on someone.
Stunt
Diamond Member
- Jul 17, 2002
- 9,717
- 2
- 0
There's three stages of life:
Teen - Liberal...student loans suck
Familyhood - Conservative...family values, lower tax
Senior - Conservative...those who have money and hate change, Liberal...those who have no money and think voting is charity before they die.
Welcome to the 50/50 split of US politics.
Teen - Liberal...student loans suck
Familyhood - Conservative...family values, lower tax
Senior - Conservative...those who have money and hate change, Liberal...those who have no money and think voting is charity before they die.
Welcome to the 50/50 split of US politics.
Then I think the problem is that the administration you generally defend is the EXACT opposite of what you just described yourself. You describe yourself as a fiscal conservative, social moderate (most of the country is this way I believe) yet this administration is fiscally super-liberal and socially super-conservative.
Edit: This doesn't really answer the original question you posed, but seriously, the people you constantly defend seem to be doing exactly the opposite of the things you are for.
- Jul 28, 2006
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Leftist:
Government has a solution for every problem
If we just leave Iraq, Middle East and Israel the terrorists will leave us alone
Raising taxes is a good thing
Talking to dictators like Kim in North Korea will bring about positive long term peace
Nationalized healthcare or any of the other ideas that believe government should take over healthcare or be more involved in it
Radical pro-abortion- anything later than first trimester, partial birth, not having some form of parental notification when your 14 year old wants an abortion
Calling Bush a traitor, war criminal, committer of treason etc etc
Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity are the source for all evil in the world, but Keith Olbermann is a rational moderate commentator (there a lot on here who might make that statement)
To a lesser degree: people who see the TN ad and yell "racists attack" people who only hear what the media said about Rush and Fox and cry that Rush made a nasty evil attack. People who actually believe that Halliburton and Cheney are working together to rob Americans blind. The ?drive for $5? gas thread and another dozen or so other irrational beliefs
I am not sure who you define moderate. Most likely what we had with Clinton in White House and Republicans in congress. Not the rhetoric from both sides, but the actual results.
Okay, show me threads where this behavior is present. I am also assuming that you don't agree with what you listed as well, am I correct in this assumption?
Don Vito Corleone
Elite
- Feb 10, 2000
- 30,029
- 66
- 91
I think one of the principal reasons is the leadership we've all had to endure over the last six years. I was a moderate at the start of the Bush administration, and if the search engine worked you would find posts of mine supporting him until well into 2002 (in ATOT - there was no P&N in those days). Hell, I was a military officer during his entire first term. The intervening years have made it increasingly clear that the Bush administration and the leadership it installed in the Pentagon are endlessly power-hungry, secretive, and incompetent. At this point I will vote Democratic for every federal office, just to do my part to take power away from the neoconservatives.
As for why there are relatively few quality conservative posters here, well, some got themselves banned (some deserved it more than others IMO), and most of the ones who are left don't post much anymore for whatever reason.
I have long lobbied for more civility here, and actually some conservative posters and I proposed to the mods a system for regulating P&N to keep the discussion at a higher level. They declined, and as long as there are so many posters here with nothing to say but partisan mockery and gratuitous :laugh:s, this place will never be what it should. Oh well . . .
As for why there are relatively few quality conservative posters here, well, some got themselves banned (some deserved it more than others IMO), and most of the ones who are left don't post much anymore for whatever reason.
I have long lobbied for more civility here, and actually some conservative posters and I proposed to the mods a system for regulating P&N to keep the discussion at a higher level. They declined, and as long as there are so many posters here with nothing to say but partisan mockery and gratuitous :laugh:s, this place will never be what it should. Oh well . . .
Bowfinger
Lifer
- Nov 17, 2002
- 15,776
- 392
- 126
I think your premise is flawed on many fronts.
First and foremost, it seems that far too many Bush supporters equate anti-Bush with liberal. That is a fallacy. While liberals in general oppose Bush policies and actions, there is a large and rapidly growing segment of moderate and conservative people who are equally unhappy with him. That doesn't make them liberals. It just means they're observant and capable of independent thought.
This should be evident to anyone who's been here a few years. When I first posted in P&N some 3.5 years ago, it was heavily supportive of Bush and his belligerent stance towards Iraq, probably on the order of 10 to 1. Always ahead of my time (
), I was one of the very few voices here speaking out against his unilateral rush to attack Iraq. (And no, I'm not particularly a pacifist. I supported the first Gulf War and our actions in Afghanistan. I was shocked and angry, however, when George lost sight of the ball in the "War on Terror" and started shifting his focus to Iraq.) In any case, over the last three years, a lot of the pro-Bush folks have become the people you now call "liberals", i.e., they decided that Bush has been bad for America. In most cases, I don't think their position on the political spectrum has shifted appreciably. They simply no longer support the Bush administration.Second, as at least one other has pointed out, you appear to be so far to the right that most people seem liberal to you. I think that is also a fallacy. Indeed, I see very few real liberals around, either here or in D.C. We mostly have a spectrum that extends from the mid-left to the extreme right.
Third, in agreement with one of your remarks, I have also commented that P&N seems to have lost most of its thoughtful, reasoned pro-Bush conservatives, mostly leaving a handful of prolific talking-point parrots who contribute little substantive discussion. In part, I suspect you're correct that many gave up because they began to feel outnumbered. I also wonder if part of it isn't that they began to lose faith in Bush, but are still loyal enough Republicans that they don't want to admit to it here.
Finally, re. the "attacks" on you, I think much of it is a direct result of your often-dishonest posting style. You rely almost exclusively on right-wing blogs for material, yet summarily dismiss any articles from a source you personally consider left-slanted. You regularly attempt to distract from the latest BushCo scandals with your "the real story is the story behind the story" OPs, invariably attempting to somehow blame Democrats for exposing the scandal, discussing the scandal, or doing something just as bad (sometimes decades ago).
You abandon threads where your claims have been refuted with factual data, yet post the same disinformation in subsequent threads. You refuse to acknowledge your own false comments re. others, e.g., your attack that I had posted absolutely no factual information whatsoever in the revenue/GDP threads (in spite of having at least two lengthy posts with extensive factual information, backed by your own link), or your claim that my statement about record revenues was false (when I documented it was the case for 41 of the 45 years BEFORE Bush took office).
In short, if you don't like being attacked, stop attacking others and start posting honest, accurate information supporting your points. Respect has to be earned.
- Jul 28, 2006
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Don't agree as in I sit on the other side with everything I listed, yes.
For thread it is not hard to find.
To late to dig links, but look at the Rush Limbaugh thread. The TN racist ad thread for starters. Then find any thread where the issue of taxes or budget come up, the North Korea threads (lots of we should talk to him) any Iraq war thread (lots of impeach the traitor attacks) etc
I think I could find 5+ quotes that illustrate every issue I listed. But it is 120am, time for bed
That sums me up pretty well. I'm somewhere in the middle and tend to be fiscally conservative and socially liberal. I've voted for Republicans and Democrats.
The reason I'm leaning left these days is because:
1) The Republican party seems to have completely abandoned the ideals of being fiscally conservative in favor of appealing to the "Bible thumpers". Also I'm currently living in the state of a prominent Republican Senator where I can personally witness the huge amount of pork barrel waste even in my small community. Democrats may spend too much on social programs, but Republicans spend too much on new and useless roads that just happen to pass through (previously useless) property that they own.
2) Accountability and getting rid of the "Rubber Stamp". I tend to prefer that the Executive Branch and Legislative Branch function as checks and balances in reality rather than in a theoretical sense. If Democrats controlled the Presidency and Congress I would probably being pulling for the Republicans to bring them back in check.
3) The numerous failures and missteps of this administration. I think they need to be 'punished' for their ineptitude. The only way to do that is with a vote against them or their supporting cast.
Bowfinger
Lifer
- Nov 17, 2002
- 15,776
- 392
- 126
Yet as I documented in an earlier thread, Ronald Reagan was the biggest spender ever as a percentage of GDP, several points higher than Clinton, for example. Bush 43 is almost as bad. Homeland Security was a tremendous expansion of government, the biggest ever according to many. It seems to me that Republicans are also fans of big government ... just different big government.
- Jul 28, 2006
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Yet as I stated, Democrats were in congress and they control spending (in theory) also Bill Clinton's first two budgets did not include any sign of spending cuts or balanced budgets, that changed when the Republicans took over. Maybe I am naive to think that Republicans will return to their fiscal conservative past.
But even if they don't, I am far more worried about the war on terror than spending, and I have NO trust of Democrats in that issue. As I said, if were not for the war, I would have no problem with a Democrat congress (other than the impeach Bush thing, which is a waste of 2 years)
BTW: No one has yet to show any proof at all that Clinton had plans to balance the budget pre 94 election.
LET'S GET OFF SPECIFIC ISSUES AND BACK TO THE BIG PICTURE THOUGH OR ELSE THIS WILL TURN INTO EVERY OTHER THREAD. I THINK WE ARE DOING GOOD SO FAR
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Don't agree as in I sit on the other side with everything I listed, yes.
For thread it is not hard to find.
To late to dig links, but look at the Rush Limbaugh thread. The TN racist ad thread for starters. Then find any thread where the issue of taxes or budget come up, the North Korea threads (lots of we should talk to him) any Iraq war thread (lots of impeach the traitor attacks) etc
I think I could find 5+ quotes that illustrate every issue I listed. But it is 120am, time for bed
Find those five quotes then, I rarely see any of the stuff you've described.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
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There are a fair number of far right wing types posting---but what they are defending is almost indefensible--and when their backs are against the wall--they predictably try a deflection by saying the dems were worse X number of years ago.---in short--their minds want to believe Bush will be right but they can't muster the logic to support it.--or the evidence either.
Moderate republican types by in large are missing--partly due to shame but they can be counted on to point out they don't trust the dems either.
But seldom can be counted on to work up any passion for defending GWB&co.
Moderate democrats post in fair numbers--and have few mental conflicts with doing some Bush bashing.
But liberals like me are having a field day---and can bash Bush until the cows come home--our problem is just selecting from so much evidence--and winnowing that to what we can post in finite time----with our typing speed and time to devote to the subject the only limiting factors---as we--with almost unassailable logic--show why Bush is wrong.
So at this time you just need to face the facts---Non-Prof John---you are simply betting on the wrong horse---your failure may not be always in your ideas---but in implementation--but you put your ideas in one basket, strapped those ideals into what amounts to a bad bet on a idiotic horse's ass named GWB&co.---and then you are watching the horse race as your nag falls further and further behind in a race to reality. And all your cheering and hopes will not make your horse's ass run any faster.---but at any moment your horse's ass is likely to keel over and is unlikely to go the distance.
But in terms of the 06 election--you can take some hope in the fact that most voters in the so called middle are often hot beds of apathy and indifference. And the people on these forums often come here for viewpoints.
Moderate republican types by in large are missing--partly due to shame but they can be counted on to point out they don't trust the dems either.
But seldom can be counted on to work up any passion for defending GWB&co.
Moderate democrats post in fair numbers--and have few mental conflicts with doing some Bush bashing.
But liberals like me are having a field day---and can bash Bush until the cows come home--our problem is just selecting from so much evidence--and winnowing that to what we can post in finite time----with our typing speed and time to devote to the subject the only limiting factors---as we--with almost unassailable logic--show why Bush is wrong.
So at this time you just need to face the facts---Non-Prof John---you are simply betting on the wrong horse---your failure may not be always in your ideas---but in implementation--but you put your ideas in one basket, strapped those ideals into what amounts to a bad bet on a idiotic horse's ass named GWB&co.---and then you are watching the horse race as your nag falls further and further behind in a race to reality. And all your cheering and hopes will not make your horse's ass run any faster.---but at any moment your horse's ass is likely to keel over and is unlikely to go the distance.
But in terms of the 06 election--you can take some hope in the fact that most voters in the so called middle are often hot beds of apathy and indifference. And the people on these forums often come here for viewpoints.
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