ok but why do you suppose you're more scared of it than other people? is it because you think there's a realistic chance that taiwan will be taken over? do you think you're just more aware of these issues than other people?
ok but why do you suppose you're more scared of it than other people? is it because you think there's a realistic chance that taiwan will be taken over? do you think you're just more aware of these issues than other people?
i love china, and the people of china. many of my friends from church are PhDs and physicians from mainland china doing medical research here in houston.
however, i am scared of the gov't, and don't approve of their record on humanitarian rights.
one day china and taiwan will reunite...i just hope when that time comes, china will be a democracy and value all peoples and opinions.
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: DaShen
Ummm... China shoots missile over Taiwan every year at least a couple times. Not really a way to build trust. They also threaten to take Taiwan by force, which they will be able to do by 2010, since there military will outshine the US by that time.
Oh well, when they take over, they will treat Taiwan like Hong Kong. Economically free, so the ignorant people won't care, socially totalitarian, where the educated people will flee or get killed. But because it will still be prosperous, most younger Taiwanese won't care.
Hopefully, by that time civil unrest by the migrant workers the 60-70% of China who are being exploited will revolt, but with China's strong military and huge control of the press, I doubt that will cause that much trouble and social change. I mean most people in China under the age of 30 don't even really know about Tiananmen Square and Tank Man... and the horrible attracities that happened.And they are so brainwashed by propaganda and wealth that they could care less about social problems in their country.
Maybe in 25 years they will reach parity in some areas, definately not in 4. Their naval construction program alone is still decades behind the US.
It has already been predicted. China's economy is already growing at over 20% every year. For the 30% who are wealthy already, they see most of that money. There military has grown in budget and strength by the same amount.
There military is already rivaling the US. By sheer manpower they already outweigh us, but it has been predicted that by the end of this decade they will be more powerful militarily than the US. Why do you think that the US is not even touching any of the corrupt countries in Asia and only structuring there War for "Freedom" on the Middle East.
If the US can control economic development in those countries or at least grab many of the oil trades, the US can still be the most influencial nation. Why do you think France was so against the war in Iraq? Because they had major trade agreement with the old regime.
beliefs that china is extremely behind in technology (e.g. google.cn was some kind of huge technological improvement in china), that everything there is unsanitary, etc. i'm not saying china is super advanced or super clean or anything, but having visited both, it's not like taiwan is much better.
Linflas
Lifer
- Jan 30, 2001
- 15,395
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Ahh gotcha. I'm not Chinese and have never been to either place so I have no idea about sanitary conditions. I know that the pictures I have seen from the mainland recently are a world of difference from pictures coming out of there 20 years ago. It certainly looks like they have radically modernized in the mainland. Sounds to me like the Taiwanese still picture the China of peasants all wearing Mao suits and riding bikes.
QFT.****
GeneValgene isn't attacking you on this issue. And yes some people are more aware of the issues, and some people tend to brush them off. Like I said before, the general population in China is not informed or if informed (possibly due to oversees education), brush it off because they are too well off to really empathize with the people experiencing the horrible atrocities. "Bribed" by the government to look the other way. Most people will look the other way, but it doesn't make the government good.
ACTUALLY....Taiwan might look like its Independent..but it's not recognized as so by anyone. So Taiwan isn't officially independent. I heard somewhere (i could be wrong, it could have been rumors or my dad trying to brainwash me) the minute Taiwan declares real independence from China..the bombs will fly and bye bye Taiwan.
so...yea.
well, as a taiwanese, i am giving you my perspective. i have nothing against china, or the people there. i just hate the government.
it is a beautiful country, and i hope to visit one day...my sister just got back from there, and said it was an amazing trip
Originally posted by: DaShen
****
GeneValgene isn't attacking you on this issue. And yes some people are more aware of the issues, and some people tend to brush them off. Like I said before, the general population in China is not informed or if informed (possibly due to oversees education), brush it off because they are too well off to really empathize with the people experiencing the horrible atrocities. "Bribed" by the government to look the other way. Most people will look the other way, but it doesn't make the government good.
i don't take anything genevalgene says to be an attack... i was really just asking why he thinks he cares more about this than others, as a (i assume) person from taiwan or with parents from taiwan. does he just have a lot more empathy?
K1052
Elite Member
- Aug 21, 2003
- 49,886
- 40,666
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Originally posted by: DaShen
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: DaShen
Ummm... China shoots missile over Taiwan every year at least a couple times. Not really a way to build trust. They also threaten to take Taiwan by force, which they will be able to do by 2010, since there military will outshine the US by that time.
Oh well, when they take over, they will treat Taiwan like Hong Kong. Economically free, so the ignorant people won't care, socially totalitarian, where the educated people will flee or get killed. But because it will still be prosperous, most younger Taiwanese won't care.
Hopefully, by that time civil unrest by the migrant workers the 60-70% of China who are being exploited will revolt, but with China's strong military and huge control of the press, I doubt that will cause that much trouble and social change. I mean most people in China under the age of 30 don't even really know about Tiananmen Square and Tank Man... and the horrible attracities that happened.
Maybe in 25 years they will reach parity in some areas, definately not in 4. Their naval construction program alone is still decades behind the US.
It has already been predicted. China's economy is already growing at over 20% every year. For the 30% who are wealthy already, they see most of that money. There military has grown in budget and strength by the same amount.
There military is already rivaling the US. By sheer manpower they already outweigh us, but it has been predicted that by the end of this decade they will be more powerful militarily than the US. Why do you think that the US is not even touching any of the corrupt countries in Asia and only structuring there War for "Freedom" on the Middle East.
If the US can control economic development in those countries or at least grab many of the oil trades, the US can still be the most influencial nation. Why do you think France was so against the war in Iraq? Because they had major trade agreement with the old regime.
In a land war the Chinese would have the advantage in numbers, on the sea it is a very different story.
Why do you think the PRC sh!t a brick when it looked like the US might approve the sale of the Aegis equipped Arleigh Burke destroyers to Taiwan? Because they have nothing nearly so formidable in their own arsenal and won't for quite a long time. They took our sale of the Kidd class destroyers to Taiwan as a substitution badly enough after it was decided not to offer the Arleigh Burke at that time
That is not the case at all.
Taiwan is scared of China taking over and having the same humanitarian and social problems as China. It is apparent you are from mainland. That is cool. I have a lot of friends from mainland. You yourself expressed that you don't agree with China's humanitarian problems, but again you support their government. Why? It is because you have not experienced or seen any news showing the beatings and cleansings of the migrant Chinese. Why? Because it is basically the same as a capital offense to try to smuggle tapes and video of these things. Most of it never gets recorded.
China has made written statement warning Taiwan of any action to declare itself a free nation will be dealt by China militarilly. They yearly shoot missile over Taiwan to drive that point home. You fail to acknowledge those points and instead gravitate to the idea that Taiwanese and Americans are dehumanizing and racially biasing China and the Chinese, which we are not. Taiwanese and Chinese people are the same, just not politically/socially. If you can acknowledge that, then you can understand why Taiwanese people are scared of China's government.
Originally posted by: gopunk
Originally posted by: DaShen
****
GeneValgene isn't attacking you on this issue. And yes some people are more aware of the issues, and some people tend to brush them off. Like I said before, the general population in China is not informed or if informed (possibly due to oversees education), brush it off because they are too well off to really empathize with the people experiencing the horrible atrocities. "Bribed" by the government to look the other way. Most people will look the other way, but it doesn't make the government good.
i don't take anything genevalgene says to be an attack... i was really just asking why he thinks he cares more about this than others, as a (i assume) person from taiwan or with parents from taiwan. does he just have a lot more empathy?
what do you mean? could you rephrase that question?
i'll do my best to answer
Originally posted by: GeneValgene
well, as a taiwanese, i am giving you my perspective. i have nothing against china, or the people there. i just hate the government.
it is a beautiful country, and i hope to visit one day...my sister just got back from there, and said it was an amazing trip
ok, i appreciate your perspective, but i guess part of what i was hoping to find out was why people such as yourself hate the government with far more vigor than far worse governments. is it because you identify with the people in china on ethnicity? is it because your family has suffered from the chinese government?
Very true. But China is growing their military budget by about the same amount as their economy yearly, and technologically they are getting close to the US. The US though is still currently technologicaly militarily more advanced, but manpower and a large average technology navy can ultimately defeat better technology navy. Budget alone they will beat us.
Why do you think the US is selling destroyers to Taiwan? Because we don't have anough manpower or a large enough military to actually hold off an offense by China into Taiwan, and we will not have any power to do anything in another half decade.
Ummm, again, it is because the threat of China instituting the same oppression in Taiwan.
If Iran or North Korea kept shooting missiles at Taiwan and were powerful enough to take it over, I think Taiwanese would have a problem with their government as well. You seem to fail to acknowledge this obvious step.
**EDIT**
BTW, my parents love Taiwan and love China. They have many Chinese friends from the mainland as well as friends from Taiwan (they just don't talk about China's government politics because some people are so brainwashed that they don't see or choose to ignore the problems, at least within the family friends I know). I only know a few very very old Taiwanese people who are prejudice to Chinese people. Most Taiwanese people are just angry at the Chinese government, not the people. As a whole culture and race are exactly the same in China as in Taiwan, why would people be prejudice to their own kin?
i'm not sure if you meant to reply to me... cuz linflas just said he's not chinese. i don't recall ever saying i supported the chinese government. if you read my original post, i am asking why people such as my friends hold distorted views with such vigor.
i acknowledge everything you guys have said about china-taiwan relations, and if my friends genuinely believe that china will try to take over taiwan, then that certainly explains their above-average vigor. but that still doesn't really explain why they have these antiquated notions of what life in china is like.
i never implied that anybody was racially biasing china and chinese people, i don't know where you came up with that.
OOOPS
Life in China is rather a lot like life in any other Industrial country (as long as your in the wealthy cities and you are educated and well off). I have two caucasian friends living and working over there, and they love the cities, but they still say it is terribly socially and politically oppressed in China when they come visit the States, they just say that you get used to it and economically it is fine, so who cares. The malls in China are apparently even more extravagent than most malls in the US.
But then you have to ignore the fact that outside the wealthy cities, there is 60-70% of the population living in shanties and barely getting by. The unemployement rate in China is ridiculouosly high. And yes, it is sad that this happens, and China gets the limelight compared to other countries because they are the largest and most powerful of the countries with that many humanitarian problems.If China took over Taiwan and took away freedom of press... that would be terrible. Taiwanese are scared of that.
China gets flack for having so much oppression, compared to other oppressed governments, by people (not just Taiwanese) because they are the largest and most powerful of the governments. And they affect/oppress the largest amount of people. Basically China is the new Russia. Get it?
K1052
Elite Member
- Aug 21, 2003
- 49,886
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China still has a LONG way to go before their military technolgy is equal with that of the US and them actually being able to field it in any meaningful numbers. The US has the largest and most advanced navy in the world, hands down.
The US has a long history of arms sales to Taiwan. Increasingly this is causing the PRC some concern as we have been willing to export our best defensive arms to Taiwan. If the US can help assure Taiwan's security without keeping a fleet in the area, it works out for everyone. If China was to become more beligerent on the issue you can bet a carrier group (or two) and a bunch of subs will be keeping a close eye on things.
Originally posted by: gopunk
Originally posted by: GeneValgene
well, as a taiwanese, i am giving you my perspective. i have nothing against china, or the people there. i just hate the government.
it is a beautiful country, and i hope to visit one day...my sister just got back from there, and said it was an amazing trip
ok, i appreciate your perspective, but i guess part of what i was hoping to find out was why people such as yourself hate the government with far more vigor than far worse governments. is it because you identify with the people in china on ethnicity? is it because your family has suffered from the chinese government?
ahh ok, i see....
hmm, i wouldn't say i hate the chinese gov't with 'far more vigor' as you say, but yes, i do definitely identify with social issues relating to asia more closely - naturally just because of my ethnicity. for example, the sex trade and slavery in cambodia, the oppression by kim jong il in north korea, or the oppression of the chinese people by gov't. i am definitely more aware of these things ebcause i am asian myself. although i am doing my best to educate myself on other world issues, especially in africa. i took a medical trip to kenya this past summer, and it really opened my eyes to the corruption and poverty there as well...but that's beside the point
i guess to give you a little glimpse into the 'fanatics'. many of them were living in taiwan generations before the people's revolution. when the chinese came to taiwan after mao took over, the KMT murdered a lot of people. especially the intellectuals and the professors of the day who spoke out against their take over. many of the 'fanatics', have grandparents who were killed during that time. not only that, the chinese suppressed the taiwanese culture at the time, even until the late 80s...for example, if you were caught speaking taiwanese in school, then the teacher would hit you. my cousins went through this. for so many years the taiwanese felt like their culture was suppressed.
so, these fanatics you meet, many of them have been heavily influenced by their parents and grandparents, especially those who lived through that time.
but does it make it right that they still carry this hatred today? especially toward those who had nothing to do with it? not at all...and i hate people who tell me i'm not true taiwanese, because i am not anti-chinese
FallenHero
Diamond Member
- Jan 2, 2006
- 5,659
- 0
- 0
Uhhh....South Vietnam doesn't exist. When we pulled out, it fell...unless thats what you were referring to.
hey, i'm not trying to fight with you, i was just trying to understand your perspective better.
yea, i totally understand what you're saying, and it makes sense. it sounds like you and your family are not like the friends i have. most taiwanese i know have no desire to visit china and think of it as a miserable place (and not just for the lack of free speech / religion... they think the actual living conditions are atrocious). edit: actually, it's probably not fair to say "most"... i guess "some" is more accurate.
China is the new Russia. Because they are very powerful and very oppressive to freedoms, they will get more flack (not only from Taiwanese people but from people in general). That is why people don't like the Chinese government.
When Stalin killed the hundreds of millions of migrant Russians, people were angry at the Russian government.... same idea. China is powerful and powerfully oppressive. People who have free speech speak out against it.
When Stalin killed the hundreds of millions of migrant Russians, people were angry at the Russian government.... same idea. China is powerful and powerfully oppressive. People who have free speech speak out against it.
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