Why are Most People Still Recommending the 4870?

airhendrix13

Senior member
Oct 15, 2006
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Most people are still recommending the 4870 over the GTX 260, which is a bit surprising to me.

Positive

The 4870 does have basically "free" 8X edge AA, support for the unproven DX10.1, overall puts out more FPS, kind of unknown OCing potential, and the mysterious Havok support on the way.

On the other hand, the GTX 260 has better cooling, uses less power (although not by much), a bit cheaper, has MUCH better 3rd party vendors, excellent OCing potential (near GTX 280 speeds), and support for PhysX (has been proven)

Negative

The 4870 runs HOT (but there is a fix for it), has a rather poor set of 3rd party vendors (IMO), a bit more expensive, DX10.1 and Havok physics unproven (although may end up being great, who knows?) OCing is currently capped, OCing doesn't seem to have as much benefit as the GTX 260.

The GTX 260 doesn't handle AA nearly as well as the 4870, longer card, generally at stock doesn't pump out as many FPS as the 4870.

-------------

From what I can gather, the GTX 260 although a bit slower, can be OC'd to be faster than an OC'd 4870 (at least currently). OCing on the 4870 doesn't seem to have as big as an impact on the performance as the GTX 260. Plus, the 4870 is already so hot that it's hard to believe that it could be OC'd much higher above the 700mhz cap on CCC anyway without 3rd party cooling.

In conclusion, I'm split 50/50. Both bring a lot to the table; both having pros and cons, but the point I'm trying to make is that many people don't give the GTX 260 as much credit as it deserves.



Alright, it's time to lock this train-wreck.

I don't have time to babysit each of you so I'll say this in general: those of you issuing personal jabs and attacks need to cut it out in the future or there will be consequences.

Video Mod BFG10K
 

dug777

Lifer
Oct 13, 2004
24,778
4
0
Since I wouldn't be overclocking, the 4870 is faster at stock I am given to understand, I prefer ATI drivers, you can get 4870s with improved OEM cooling, and I've had nothing but excellent experiences with at least two ATI board partners, I'd take the 4870 ;)

In fact, I'll be taking a 4850, but that's irrelevant.

 

Eluros

Member
Jul 7, 2008
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On the other hand, the GTX 260 has better cooling, uses less power (although not by much), a bit cheaper, has MUCH better 3rd party vendors, excellent OCing potential (near GTX 280 speeds), and support for PhysX (has been proven)
Out of curiosity, if you overclock an EVGA/XFX/(what's the third good one? BFI?) card, does that affect your warranty, or is it just as active as if you had never overclocked it? If it doesn't affect the warranty, you make a very valid point.

Edited for grammar
 

airhendrix13

Senior member
Oct 15, 2006
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I believe with EVGA and XFX, you can OC your card and if anything goes horribly wrong, they'll still replace it. XFX is especially well known for their support for OCing.
 

tvdang7

Platinum Member
Jun 4, 2005
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the 4870 does benifit from overclocking. the problem is all the sites have CCC cap and cant reach the full potential but most people are hiting like 825+ on the core using the amd overclock tool.
 

airhendrix13

Senior member
Oct 15, 2006
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Originally posted by: tvdang7
the 4870 does benifit from overclocking. the problem is all the sites have CCC cap and cant reach the full potential but most people are hiting like 825+ on the core using the amd overclock tool.
Do you have any benchmarks for that? I'd like to see how OCing affects the cards performance.
 

Eluros

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Jul 7, 2008
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I believe with EVGA and XFX, you can OC your card and if anything goes horribly wrong, they'll still replace it. XFX is especially well known for their support for OCing.
I looked online, and at least EVGA definitely does cover this; you're right!

Unfortunately, I don't think I have the space in my case for such an enormously long card; I'll need to see if I can move anything around to make some room...
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
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alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: airhendrix13
Originally posted by: tvdang7
the 4870 does benifit from overclocking. the problem is all the sites have CCC cap and cant reach the full potential but most people are hiting like 825+ on the core using the amd overclock tool.
Do you have any benchmarks for that? I'd like to see how OCing affects the cards performance.
the CCC O/C only allows my 4870 to get to the "safe" 790/1100 :p

it is about a +3% FPS improvement over stock [generally/roughly in a few games; maybe less - not impressive, but the core needs a higher OC to make a bigger difference]

i have RivaTuner that can OC further, but i haven't pushed the core yet; my temps - admittedly high to start with; only went up +2C at max CCC o/c.

So i have hope for more and i will let you know tonight how far she goes.


The reason i picked HD4870 was because i got it at launch and i want to play with Crossfire X3 [by adding a 4870x2]

BTW, the Sapphire box actually ENCOURAGES "max O/C'ing"
:Q
 

airhendrix13

Senior member
Oct 15, 2006
427
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Originally posted by: Eluros
I believe with EVGA and XFX, you can OC your card and if anything goes horribly wrong, they'll still replace it. XFX is especially well known for their support for OCing.
I looked online, and at least EVGA definitely does cover this; you're right!

Unfortunately, I don't think I have the space in my case for such an enormously long card; I'll need to see if I can move anything around to make some room...
The GTX 260 is 10.5 inches (267 mm) in length. Get out your tape measure! :)
 

airhendrix13

Senior member
Oct 15, 2006
427
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Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: airhendrix13
Originally posted by: tvdang7
the 4870 does benifit from overclocking. the problem is all the sites have CCC cap and cant reach the full potential but most people are hiting like 825+ on the core using the amd overclock tool.
Do you have any benchmarks for that? I'd like to see how OCing affects the cards performance.
the CCC O/C only allows my 4870 to get to the "safe" 790/1100 :p

it is about a +3% FPS improvement over stock [generally/roughly in a few games; maybe less - not impressive, but the core needs a higher OC to make a bigger difference]

i have RivaTuner that can OC further, but i haven't pushed the core yet; my temps - admittedly high to start with; only went up +2C at max CCC o/c.

So i have hope for more and i will let you know tonight how far she goes.


The reason i picked HD4870 was because i got it at launch and i want to play with Crossfire X3 [by adding a 4870x2]

BTW, the Sapphire box actually ENCOURAGES "max O/C'ing"
:Q

This helps confirm the rather small performance impact of OCing on the 4870, but like you said, perhaps you can push it further with RivaTuner. I'm surprised by the small temperature increase when OCing, what speed is your fan running at?

I look forward to seeing your OC results!
 

solofly

Banned
May 25, 2003
1,421
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Originally posted by: airhendrix13
the 4870 is already so hot that it's hard to believe that it could be OC'd much higher above the 700mhz cap on CCC anyway without 3rd party cooling.
Well it's HOT cause at idle the fan only runs at 14% give it or take. Ati thinks it's safe, I don't worry about it as long as the card is stable.

 

deerhunter716

Member
Jul 17, 2007
163
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Originally posted by: airhendrix13
Originally posted by: Wreckage
I think the new PhysX drivers will be making people think twice for sure.
I agree, it is a huge improvement over CPU physics.

Here is the anandtech preview/review of PhysX for those who haven't seen it:

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3171&p=1

Makes the PhysX a LOT less appealing now with such a huge hit in performance. And who cares if the card runs warmer than the 260? The card is built to run hot and it is in it's safe operating range easily. Now if if it ran hotter than what it was "supposed" to be able to support then yes you should be worried.
 

airhendrix13

Senior member
Oct 15, 2006
427
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0
Originally posted by: solofly
Originally posted by: airhendrix13
the 4870 is already so hot that it's hard to believe that it could be OC'd much higher above the 700mhz cap on CCC anyway without 3rd party cooling.
Well it's HOT cause at idle the fan only runs at 14% give it or take. Ati thinks it's safe, I don't worry about it as long as the card is stable.
ATI should strive to improve the cooling by releasing a fix for the fan speed. Although it is an easy fix for most, for some this can be new territory. It is unacceptable that ATI has let this issue go unresolved for so long. But yes, that will significantly lower temps.
 

Mem

Lifer
Apr 23, 2000
21,476
13
81
Nobody meantioned the official monthly updates by AMD?...one reason why I jumped ship back to AMD/ATI.

I don't overclock so the 4870 heat is not an issue,if it was serious overclockers would just stick a third party heatsink/fan on the 4870 regardless of voiding warranty or not.

AMD/ATI third party vendors are ok in my books like Gainward,Asus,Gigabyte,VisionTek etc... reason why is I normally upgrade my video card(every 2 years or so) before its out of warranty,I also like to try different brands too so not 100% loyal to any.

I agree, it is a huge improvement over CPU physics.

Here is the anandtech preview/review of PhysX for those who haven't seen it:
That did cross my mind but not enough at this time to keep me loyal staying with Nvidia,besides if you read this .

With all that said, we probably wouldn't recommend basing a graphics card purchase on PhysX support. At least not until the dust settles and more PhysX-enabled games come out.




The GTX 260 doesn't handle AA nearly as well as the 4870, longer card, generally at stock doesn't pump out as many FPS as the 4870.
My 4870 touches one of my IDE cables on my motherboard(being used by DVD drives) anything longer like 260 would cause me problems.I guess Nvidia think everybody has space size of runway in their cases,any bigger then I have to move house ;).



 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
I'll go with a 4870 because AMD will release drivers that officially work and improve performance every month. If I buy a GTX260 then I'll have to wait for AMD to release the Radeon 5870 before Nvidia will release some miracle driver with performance gains and extra features. (Sorry, but Nvidia really rubbed me the wrong way in how they finally released better drivers for the 9800 that improve performance after the 4850 numbers were out)
 

chewietobbacca

Senior member
Jun 10, 2007
291
0
0
Banking on PhysX or even CUDA is a bit silly right now, especially with OpenCL and DX11 GPGPU on the horizon, meaning that Havok and other things can be ported to GPU without needing to be bound by hardware.
 

adlep

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2001
5,286
6
81
Physx and Cuda support are important pluses to recommend going Nvidia route at least until AMD develops similar set of tools.
With Nvidia cards, there is a bigger potential of using them for something else than 3d games.

Examples:
Fastra Tomography


CUDA set of tools

Also, CUDA has been around for at least a year; Nvidia has a huge head start in terms of developer adoption...

Originally posted by: chewietobbacca
Banking on PhysX or even CUDA is a bit silly right now, especially with OpenCL and DX11 GPGPU on the horizon, meaning that Havok and other things can be ported to GPU without needing to be bound by hardware.
CUDA and Physx are available RIGHT NOW, versus some other future solution, no matter how good it may be on the paper.
 

airhendrix13

Senior member
Oct 15, 2006
427
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0
Originally posted by: deerhunter716
Originally posted by: airhendrix13
Originally posted by: Wreckage
I think the new PhysX drivers will be making people think twice for sure.
I agree, it is a huge improvement over CPU physics.

Here is the anandtech preview/review of PhysX for those who haven't seen it:

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3171&p=1

Makes the PhysX a LOT less appealing now with such a huge hit in performance. And who cares if the card runs warmer than the 260? The card is built to run hot and it is in it's safe operating range easily. Now if if it ran hotter than what it was "supposed" to be able to support then yes you should be worried.
PhysX right now doesn't look as appealing (still appeals me though), but in the future once we start getting full volumetric fluid motion, fully destructible environments, and such, it should be a pretty big deal.

Hotter cards have less OCing headroom, and despite what some say, 100% of the heat isn't blown out the back of your case, increasing system temperature. It's more of an issue with OCer's for the most part.
 

Mem

Lifer
Apr 23, 2000
21,476
13
81
Originally posted by: adlep
Physx and Cuda support are important pluses to recommend going Nvidia route at least until AMD develops similar set of tools.
With Nvidia cards, there is a bigger potential of using them for something else than 3d games.


Fastra

CUDA
I don't think I have any games that use Physx at the moment,I buy 5-6 new games(not including old budget games) a year so lets say 12 games over next 2 years before I upgrade again,how many will be using Physx and too powerful for my 4870 card at decent FPS?..not many if any.

 

deerhunter716

Member
Jul 17, 2007
163
0
0
Originally posted by: airhendrix13
Originally posted by: deerhunter716
Originally posted by: airhendrix13
Originally posted by: Wreckage
I think the new PhysX drivers will be making people think twice for sure.
I agree, it is a huge improvement over CPU physics.

Here is the anandtech preview/review of PhysX for those who haven't seen it:

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3171&p=1

Makes the PhysX a LOT less appealing now with such a huge hit in performance. And who cares if the card runs warmer than the 260? The card is built to run hot and it is in it's safe operating range easily. Now if if it ran hotter than what it was "supposed" to be able to support then yes you should be worried.
PhysX right now doesn't look as appealing (still appeals me though), but in the future once we start getting full volumetric fluid motion, fully destructible environments, and such, it should be a pretty big deal.

Hotter cards have less OCing headroom, and despite what some say, 100% of the heat isn't blown out the back of your case, increasing system temperature. It's more of an issue with OCer's for the most part.


Fair on the heat deal but still should not be an issue really with adequate case cooling. The concern I have with PhysX or Havok or whatever is that technology is changing so fast; hell in 2 yrs PhysX could be a thing of the past and onto something totally new -- thus never even coming close to realizing the benefits. I think all their hype on PhysX is simply a mrketing ploy right now to make people think they are doing something so awesome for everyone when in fact it makes no difference and gives the FPS a HUGE hit.
 

airhendrix13

Senior member
Oct 15, 2006
427
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0
Originally posted by: Mem
Nobody meantioned the official monthly updates by AMD?...one reason why I jumped ship back to AMD/ATI.

I don't overclock so the 4870 heat is not an issue,if it was serious overclockers would just stick a third party heatsink/fan on the 4870 regardless of voiding warranty or not.

AMD/ATI third party vendors are ok in my books like Gainward,Asus,Gigabyte,VisionTek etc... reason why is I normally upgrade my video card(every 2 years or so) before its out of warranty,I also like to try different brands too so not 100% loyal to any.

I agree, it is a huge improvement over CPU physics.

Here is the anandtech preview/review of PhysX for those who haven't seen it:
That did cross my mind but not enough at this time to keep me loyal staying with Nvidia,besides if you read this .

With all that said, we probably wouldn't recommend basing a graphics card purchase on PhysX support. At least not until the dust settles and more PhysX-enabled games come out.




The GTX 260 doesn't handle AA nearly as well as the 4870, longer card, generally at stock doesn't pump out as many FPS as the 4870.
My 4870 touches one of my IDE cables on my motherboard(being used by DVD drives) anything longer like 260 would cause me problems.I guess Nvidia think everybody has space size of runway in their cases,any bigger then I have to move house ;).
I wouldn't base my GPU purchase on PhysX alone either, but it is something to keep in mind. If the 260 deosn't fit and the 4870 does, that would be an easy choice for me too. :b
 

airhendrix13

Senior member
Oct 15, 2006
427
0
0
Originally posted by: SlowSpyder
I'll go with a 4870 because AMD will release drivers that officially work and improve performance every month. If I buy a GTX260 then I'll have to wait for AMD to release the Radeon 5870 before Nvidia will release some miracle driver with performance gains and extra features. (Sorry, but Nvidia really rubbed me the wrong way in how they finally released better drivers for the 9800 that improve performance after the 4850 numbers were out)
That pissed me off too, but I'm banking on now that Nvidia has better competition, they will be smart about their driver releases. But I guess we'll see...
 

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