Why are Ford hybrid vehicles getting better (EPA) mileage than Toyota hybrids? UPDATE

[Pulsar]

Didn't the escape just get recalled like 2-3 times at launch. I like ford and they are making some good cars lately but I don't think they have near the reputation Toyota does even after the bogus acceleration fiasco

http://money.cnn.com/2012/10/10/investing/toyota-recall/index.html

When was this? Oh right, 30 days ago?

We can play the stupid-anecdote game all day. Let's not.

 

[Demo24]

Didn't the escape just get recalled like 2-3 times at launch. I like ford and they are making some good cars lately but I don't think they have near the reputation Toyota does even after the bogus acceleration fiasco

There was a supplier part problem that forced a couple recalls, thankfully before many were sold. Just about every make is recalling some model every year or so.

 

[bigi]

I love this place. Honest question about why one company is doing better than another results in the first two answers being "Ford's faking the results" and "Ford must be using a different test".

Christ guys, seriously? This is the garage, not off topic.

Yesterday I watched motorweek tesing the new Ford hybrid. Ford quotes its MPG as 47/47.

Motorweek got 38MPG combined, which is a huge difference from quoted one.

Now, this is a good and tangible indication that Ford does good MPG on paper only at least in this case for sure.

 

[HybridSquirrel]

Yesterday I watched motorweek tesing the new Ford hybrid. Ford quotes its MPG as 47/47.

Motorweek got 38MPG combined, which is a huge difference from quoted one.

Now, this is a good and tangible indication that Ford does good MPG on paper only at least in this case for sure.

Seriously, they are using the old 2-cycle EPA tests on their monroney tags, which is a fair thing to do. But then people buy their cars and get significantly less than what they say and wonder why...a 9mpg difference is huge...

 

[LTC8K6]

Yesterday I watched motorweek tesing the new Ford hybrid. Ford quotes its MPG as 47/47.

Motorweek got 38MPG combined, which is a huge difference from quoted one.

Now, this is a good and tangible indication that Ford does good MPG on paper only at least in this case for sure.

It's too small of a sample...

 

[SparkyJJO]

EPA estimates are just that, estimates. Throw hybrid in there and they are even worse than estimates.

The revisted EPA estimates have actually been less accurate for me. They lowered their ratings on my cars, and I've gotten at least the old ratings out of the cars if not more. Well, except for one I have now, but it doesn't count

 

[Kroze]

Yesterday I watched motorweek tesing the new Ford hybrid. Ford quotes its MPG as 47/47.

Motorweek got 38MPG combined, which is a huge difference from quoted one.

Now, this is a good and tangible indication that Ford does good MPG on paper only at least in this case for sure.

Again, you can only trust Honda & Toyota. The rest is

 

[ElFenix]

Yesterday I watched motorweek tesing the new Ford hybrid. Ford quotes its MPG as 47/47.

Motorweek got 38MPG combined, which is a huge difference from quoted one.

Now, this is a good and tangible indication that Ford does good MPG on paper only at least in this case for sure.

i've never seen any journo ever get near an EPA rating on anything. none of them have any idea how to drive other than lead footed.

 

[leper84]

Weird, Motorweek was pretty quiet about what fuel economy they actually got in their Prius V review.

Well, except when showing the interior, if you look at the dash they were only getting 32-33 mpg combined. Whoops.... 38 doesn't sound so bad for Ford. I get the same feeling from Motorweek as I got from Consumer Reports when they rated the Pontiac Vibe horrible and the Toyota Matrix as a top pick, lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ppMthEagr0#t=3m32s

 

[waggy]

people still going on about either ford or toyota's reputation are stuck in the 70's. the cars today are both very good. Both are going to have recalls anyone that complains about that is insane.

The real world gas mileage between the two hybrids is good. they both get great MPG seems the ford slightly better.

 

[Ferzerp]

What about this one then if we're playing the recall game?

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/14/toyota-recalling-2-77-million-vehicles-for-water-pump-steering/

 

[Imported]

look on fuelly.com at the numbers the cmax is putting out. my estimate, based on the few they got in there, is that it's going to be getting in the range of 40-45, where the prius is getting 49. I'm averaging 46.5 so far in my prius, but I beat the thing.

Averaging about 51mpg on our Prius. Usually have the cruise set to 70 if not in traffic.

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

Weird, Motorweek was pretty quiet about what fuel economy they actually got in their Prius V review.

Well, except when showing the interior, if you look at the dash they were only getting 32-33 mpg combined. Whoops.... 38 doesn't sound so bad for Ford. I get the same feeling from Motorweek as I got from Consumer Reports when they rated the Pontiac Vibe horrible and the Toyota Matrix as a top pick, lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ppMthEagr0#t=3m32s

Nice catch.

I'll echo Elfenix. I haven't ever seen a car magazine get anywhere near the EPA rated mileage. The fact that Motorweek glosses over the MPG is no surprise considering how much they slobber over Toyota and Honda.

 

[Drako]

Lithium-Ion vs Nickel Metal Hydride :hmm:

I'll go with Lithium-Ion.

 

[Jumpem]

...that wasn't their fault in the slightest.

Didn't the escape just get recalled like 2-3 times at launch. I like ford and they are making some good cars lately but I don't think they have near the reputation Toyota does even after the bogus acceleration fiasco

Look who is making a settlement for all of the damages.

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/14/toyota-to-settle-25-5m-us-investor-lawsuit-over-unintended-acce/

 

[desy]

The 14.9 million vehicles listed in 2010 as being part of the so-called voluntary recalls was up from about 8.5 million vehicles in 2009, establishing a record. “More and more recalls are being initiated by automakers, and we think this shows that manufacturers are taking their responsibility for safety seriously,” Ms. Aldana said.

Troubled by issues including unintended acceleration, Toyota led with 17 individual recalls in 2010, which affected 6.7 million vehicles. General Motors was next, with 21 recalls affecting four million vehicles. Honda was third, with 15 recalls affecting almost 2.4 million vehicles. Fourth was Nissan, with 16 recalls affecting almost 2.1 million vehicles. The Chrysler Group was fifth, with 17 recalls affecting 1.6 million vehicles.

“This is the first time three Japanese companies made the top five companies in recalled vehicles,” wrote Clarence Ditlow, the executive director of the Center for Auto Safety, in an e-mail. “Honda, Nissan and Toyota need to remember that safety and quality is what got them to the top.”

Also

Testing under stricter new horsepower standards reveals that most of the models in Toyota's lineup have less oomph than the company has advertised. Even though the engines are unchanged, the automaker had to lower the horsepower ratings on all but few 2006 Toyota, Lexus and Scion models. The reductions range from 4 to 20 horsepower compared with 2005 models.

Honda Motor Co., the No. 2 Japanese automaker, also has downgraded the horsepower ratings on several models, including most of its Acura luxury brand.

But while the Japanese automakers overstated their power, an analysis of data compiled by Edmunds.com shows domestic vehicles have generally been testing at or slightly above previously stated horsepower. The testing suggests Detroit's automakers may have suffered unfairly in the battle of perceptions.


I've owned Toyotas Hondas Nissans Fords Dodges Chev's The only ones w powertrain issues was the Dodge and Toyota and while the ones from the 80s 90 and 00's were better when Japanese I really haven't noticed much of a dif in the last 7-8 yrs though

 

[ElFenix]

Also

Testing under stricter new horsepower standards reveals that most of the models in Toyota's lineup have less oomph than the company has advertised. Even though the engines are unchanged, the automaker had to lower the horsepower ratings on all but few 2006 Toyota, Lexus and Scion models. The reductions range from 4 to 20 horsepower compared with 2005 models.

Honda Motor Co., the No. 2 Japanese automaker, also has downgraded the horsepower ratings on several models, including most of its Acura luxury brand.

But while the Japanese automakers overstated their power, an analysis of data compiled by Edmunds.com shows domestic vehicles have generally been testing at or slightly above previously stated horsepower. The testing suggests Detroit's automakers may have suffered unfairly in the battle of perceptions.

toyota's 3.0L V6 in the camry magically increased power several times in the 90s. i have to imagine the bolded is true.

 

[CraigRT]

Didn't the escape just get recalled like 2-3 times at launch. I like ford and they are making some good cars lately but I don't think they have near the reputation Toyota does even after the bogus acceleration fiasco

Depends on who you ask. If you ask me, I'd drive a Ford over a Toyota any day. We have some newer model Toyota vehicles at work and they are so cheap and gross inside its laughable. (Corolla and Sienna)

 

[BurnItDwn]

Same tests. The C-Max competes against the Prius V and it's getting better mileage. No conspiracy, it's just better. However, in 1-2 years the next gen prius will be released (priuschat.com front page now I think has something on it). The standard hatchback is supposed to get 20% better mileage. I imagine that would also affect the V. 20% better on it would bring it basically where the C-max is.

I don't think lion makes any substantial difference in anything but capacity per weight at this point; I've not heard (not saying it's not the case) It's anymore actual efficient/less energy loss than nickel--I bet it's not. Toyota's engineer says they'll still use nickel based in some cars and it works great in hybrids.

Wouldn't Higher power density or capacity per weight make a huge difference? I mean ... you either have less weight and the same capacity, or at the same weight, more battery capacity which means potentially that the engine may need to run less?

 

[nerp]

Recall numbers don't mean anything. I had a recall notice for an LED on the shifter was too bright. IMHO, that should boost a reputation. How many car companies would bother to notify drivers of a fix for something that isn't critical? Most would ignore it, figure they'd be able to combine it with software updates during a regular service check. Save the cost of mailing and the rush of owners coming to the dealership for warranty recall repair. I have a hunch it's not just Chrysler issuing more recalls for issues that simply would not have been addressed in the past.

 

[Zargon]

reputation is a bitch.


Nobody has a problem trusting Toyota because Toyota is perceived as reliable. Ford has an uphill battle in this.

and toyota just recalled what, 3mil+ vehicles, and its the second recall like this in a year? make that months...... http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2012/11/14/toyota-recall-steering-pump/1703953/

Recall numbers don't mean anything. I had a recall notice for an LED on the shifter was too bright. IMHO, that should boost a reputation. How many car companies would bother to notify drivers of a fix for something that isn't critical? Most would ignore it, figure they'd be able to combine it with software updates during a regular service check. Save the cost of mailing and the rush of owners coming to the dealership for warranty recall repair. I have a hunch it's not just Chrysler issuing more recalls for issues that simply would not have been addressed in the past.

it does matter when they are critical

the escape was catching on fire, they cheaped out on a fuel line apparantly

both of those big toyota recalls involve errors that could get you killed.

Wouldn't Higher power density or capacity per weight make a huge difference? I mean ... you either have less weight and the same capacity, or at the same weight, more battery capacity which means potentially that the engine may need to run less?

yeah. thats the whole point of batterys right, the dense-er the bett-er right

vehicle weight is a huge factor in MPG

 

[jolancer]

sorry, i appoligize befor hand... i read the first page of posts, and couldn't stomach to read another page if it was anything like the first(im also not the fastest reader . Im sorry i try not to post on threads were i only have bad things to say, not sure im the only one who thinks this but lota ignorant posts in this one IMO

I def wont beable to address all that is wrong here... but first the most relavant to the thread title - I looked into how hybrid rated mpg was calculated in the past, and im not going to go look it up again because the gist of it or conclussion is - hybrid epa mpg is complete bullshit. it doesn't matter which brand of car your referring to, its partly the rating system yes, but also the nature of hybrids themself(mpg gas only aposed to full electric has a HUGE difference, Heck the price difference between gasoline and the going kwh rate for electric co. affects hybrids MPG), the mode the hybrid functions in is also partly dependant on the state of the battery... Electric only mode on hybrids doesnt last for many miles but yet that limited charge is given a higher relavance then it should in the MPG rating as apposed to real world... depending how many miles u have to drive and if you cant plug it in everywere your def not getting that MPG boots from the local utility co. except in the beggining when the battery was full.

and the less relavant - I find it so very very ironic when i seep people driving hybrids with the pedel to the medal, why would any of you people post admit to doing that? wait forget i asked.

debating brand reputation is fine, but the point i think is lost on some of you... Toyota has had recalls Yes True, but did they delay lie point fingers at other companies etc? or did they take honest action upfront still serving with there best customer service... That is the point. mistakes happen, not everyone admits to them though... in fact most will not admit

 

[Zargon]

sorry, i appoligize befor hand... i read the first page of posts, and couldn't stomach to read another page if it was anything like the first(im also not the fastest reader . Im sorry i try not to post on threads were i only have bad things to say, not sure im the only one who thinks this but lota ignorant posts in this one IMO

I def wont beable to address all that is wrong here... but first the most relavant to the thread title - I looked into how hybrid rated mpg was calculated in the past, and im not going to go look it up again because the gist of it or conclussion is - hybrid epa mpg is complete bullshit. it doesn't matter which brand of car your referring to, its partly the rating system yes, but also the nature of hybrids themself(mpg gas only aposed to full electric has a HUGE difference, Heck the price difference between gasoline and the going kwh rate for electric co. affects hybrids MPG), the mode the hybrid functions in is also partly dependant on the state of the battery... Electric only mode on hybrids doesnt last for many miles but yet that limited charge is given a higher relavance then it should in the MPG rating as apposed to real world... depending how many miles u have to drive and if you cant plug it in everywere your def not getting that MPG boots from the local utility co. except in the beggining when the battery was full.

and the less relavant - I find it so very very ironic when i seep people driving hybrids with the pedel to the medal, why would any of you people post admit to doing that? wait forget i asked.

debating brand reputation is fine, but the point i think is lost on some of you... Toyota has had recalls Yes True, but did they delay lie point fingers at other companies etc? or did they take honest action upfront still serving with there best customer service... That is the point. mistakes happen, not everyone admits to them though... in fact most will not admit

IU hope to god you arent talking about the firestone tires thing, that was in fact, the tires being screwed up at the factory and blowing out

 

[SparkyJJO]

debating brand reputation is fine, but the point i think is lost on some of you... Toyota has had recalls Yes True, but did they delay lie point fingers at other companies etc? or did they take honest action upfront still serving with there best customer service... That is the point. mistakes happen, not everyone admits to them though... in fact most will not admit

Yes, they have. They blamed the pedal maker for the stuck pedal issue (which really was overblown and not near as big an issue as it was made out to be) and they blamed the supplier of the frames for the Tacomas that disintegrated (same place also made Dodge truck frames without rot issues). There may be more, but those are the two that stick out to me.

I think it is safe to say that all the manufacturers have blamed others for their problems at some point or another.

 

[Dari]

UPDATE: http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012...el-economy-failing-to-live-up-to-epa-ratings/

courtesy of: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...uel-economy-failing-to-live-up-to-EPA-ratings