Why Americans don't wanna be Americans anymore?Record number of renounced citizenship

[Black Octagon]

They don't physically move their company to Ireland though. For example, apple has a shell company setup in Ireland that owns all of it's tech patents, apple pays that company for use of the IP which allows them to avoid taxes in the US.



I think what the poster was implying was that companies who rely on labor are moving to countries with no labor laws (I don't know if that's true or not).

I agree, but the company still moves its income to Ireland so as to incur lower corporate tax. They can benefit greatly from this while still employing large masses of staff in their US 'operational' HQ.

Perhaps it's a poor example, but I felt it analogous to a person giving up their citizenship for similar purposes

 

[allisolm]

You guys come up with $200K and I will renounce and go to a South America like Costa Rica sipping Mai tai's on the beach while you guys keep getting raped by the Oil Thugs.

LOL
Gasoline is around $3.50 a gallon in Costa Rica. Must be more Oil Thugs there than here.



This whole thing is a non-issue. More than 6000000 US citizens live outside the US and about .05% renounced? So 99.95% didn't? Of all US citizens about .001% renounced and 99.999% didn't.

 

[werepossum]

Libs always like to point out the that the US is one of the only civilized countries not to offer universal healthcare, as if by definition that means we're doing something wrong. Well, the US is essentially the only country on earth that taxes it's citizens on income earned elsewhere when they don't reside in the US. That in itself should be sufficient reason to question the policy.

Not if you embrace the proggie creed that other people exist only for the proggie's own benefit.

 

[werepossum]

LOL
Gasoline is around $3.50 a gallon in Costa Rica. Must be more Oil Thugs there than here.

This whole thing is a non-issue. More than 6000000 US citizens live outside the US and about .05% renounced? So 99.95% didn't? Of all US citizens about .001% renounced and 99.999% didn't.

As an admin you should know that a sense of proportion is not allowed in P&N. It's about the heat of our outrage. We are outraged that 3,500 people were forced to renounce the nation of their birth to avoid being taxed on income earned totally without any government participation. Or we are outraged that 3,500 people were horrible enough to renounce their citizenship to avoid paying "their fair share". Same outrage.

 

[werepossum]

I suspect that recent changes haven't made taxes any worse for honest expats, but rather have made the paperwork worse, burdensome, for regular middle class folk who never planned on coming home, anyway. They have dual citizenship in civilized places along with jobs & families & lives wherever they are. If current requirements are onerous for them, we need to figure out how to make it better. They didn't move offshore for tax purposes.

I suspect that you are correct. If one earns a bazillion dollars, tax compliance is your accountant's headache. If one earns a relatively modest income, tax compliance is your headache.

There may also be non-American factors increasing this very small number. As other nations look for ways to get more tax revenue, they may be squeezing harder on dual citizenship or ex-pats. Or not. Either way, while I don't think America should be charging income tax to Americans living and earning outside America, I'm not going to get real bent over 3,500 people deciding it's no longer worth the hassle.

 

[allisolm]

As an admin you should know that a sense of proportion is not allowed in P&N.

So sorry. I completely forgot. Will strive to do better in the future.

 

[werepossum]

So sorry. I completely forgot. Will strive to do better in the future.

lol

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Unless you are married and 55 or older or have a professional degree, the average (median) American has less than 200k in assests, in fact the median net wealth is less than 70k.

http://www.census.gov/people/wealth/files/Wealth_Tables_2011.xlsx

I am 26 and married. Our assets are decently past 200k. It's not exactly rocket science. Pay off debt. Invest and hold early, and buy a house at a decent age (instead of tossing it down the drain of a rental).

 

[ivwshane]

I am 26 and married. Our assets are decently past 200k. It's not exactly rocket science. Pay off debt. Invest and hold early, and buy a house at a decent age (instead of tossing it down the drain of a rental).

 

[Jhhnn]

I am 26 and married. Our assets are decently past 200k. It's not exactly rocket science. Pay off debt. Invest and hold early, and buy a house at a decent age (instead of tossing it down the drain of a rental).

Because it's all about you. Always.

 

[Blanky]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/feb/11/us-mass-exodus-record-number-of-americans-renounce/

A record-setting number of Americans renounced their citizenship in 2014, up from 2,999 in 2013 to 3,415, Treasury Department statistics showed.

Because of raising taxes? Low-life level? CRIMINAL VIOLATIONS OF CIVIL RIGHTS? Why these people decided not to be Americans? 3.415...

One out of every 100,000 Americans renouncing vs how many thousands more becoming citizens?

The US is the only country in the world (other than some other pissant nation) that requires people to pay taxes on world wide income while aborad, and it is a huge hassle for a lot of people.

Canada, for example, has a sizeable population of Americans and I dare say the vast bulk of them are not even filing US taxes each year. Even if you were born in Canada, have never visited the US, but your parent was a US citizen, now you are, too, and the US expects you to pay US taxes.

 

[Jhhnn]

One out of every 100,000 Americans renouncing vs how many thousands more becoming citizens?

The US is the only country in the world (other than some other pissant nation) that requires people to pay taxes on world wide income while aborad, and it is a huge hassle for a lot of people.

Likely true.

Canada, for example, has a sizeable population of Americans and I dare say the vast bulk of them are not even filing US taxes each year.

Mere conjecture.

Even if you were born in Canada, have never visited the US, but your parent was a US citizen, now you are, too, and the US expects you to pay US taxes.

Inaccurate projection. The US govt cannot claim your theoretical Canadian- he has to choose to be a US citizen. He has to claim it. If he & Canada say he's Canadian, he's Canadian & that's that. I suspect that the option to claim US citizenship will be open to him his entire life with no obligation on his part to ever do so.

Claiming dual citizenship is likely possible, so if he wants US citizenship he has to pay taxes just like the rest of us.

 

[DCal430]

One out of every 100,000 Americans renouncing vs how many thousands more becoming citizens?

The US is the only country in the world (other than some other pissant nation) that requires people to pay taxes on world wide income while aborad, and it is a huge hassle for a lot of people.

Canada, for example, has a sizeable population of Americans and I dare say the vast bulk of them are not even filing US taxes each year. Even if you were born in Canada, have never visited the US, but your parent was a US citizen, now you are, too, and the US expects you to pay US taxes.

Actually no, it depends on how long that parent lived in the U.S. if they moved to Canada as a child, then you would NOT be a U.S citizen.

 

[werepossum]

I am 26 and married. Our assets are decently past 200k. It's not exactly rocket science. Pay off debt. Invest and hold early, and buy a house at a decent age (instead of tossing it down the drain of a rental).

Smart couple. We need more people like you. Sad that even though this behavior doesn't define you as left or right, your very existence offends much of the far left.

 

[shira]

You are wrong, no one pays double taxes. The foreign tax credit prevents this. Each dollar you pay to a foreign government you can take 1 dollar off what you owe the U.S government. You will never pay more in total than if you had lived in the U.S, and was only taxed by the U.S. This is for ALL foreign countries even those without a tax treaty.

And it's even better than that: The first $101,000 of income earned in a foreign country is completely excluded from U.S. income tax, even if the tax paid to the foreign country is LESS than would have been paid had the income been earned in the U.S. So, for example, if you earn $100,000 in Montegnegro (where the maximum income tax rate is 9%) you won't pay a dime of U.S. income tax on that money.

And for those who complain that the income tax rate (plus Social Security tax + value added tax) in all first-world foreign countries is MUCH higher than the corresponding tax rates in the U.S., then why on Earth would a person want to earn income and pay much, much higher taxes in a foreign country when they could be paying much less in taxes by working in the U.S.? I guess this means that taxes aren't the "controlling" factor for deciding citizenship for most Americans.

The point is, righties want to have it both ways: They want to claim that the onerous tax system is the U.S. is driving citizens to renounce their citizenship, while conveniently overlooking the fact that the tax rates of virtually every country where Americans would want to live if they weren't U.S. citizens would be considerably higher than in the U.S.

 

[nickqt]

Smart couple. We need more people like you. Sad that even though this behavior doesn't define you as left or right, your very existence offends much of the far left.

As an Amurica-hating libruul, I have already called all of my anti-Christian atheist friends and Muslim allies to call for him to be strung up and crucified.

Because his very existence offends me.

Laughably stupid, yet you actually believe this. Wow.

Keep on demonizing anyone who isn't a member of your tribe while warning fellow tribe members that everyone else is out to get 'em.

 

[Blanky]

Mere conjecture.

A million Americans in Canada and I'm quite sure the bulk are not at all filing with the IRS. I don't believe IRS has posted numbers, as data to that effect is not in its interest

http://business.financialpost.com/2014/06/10/for-americans-in-canada-another-tax-deadline-looms/

Inaccurate projection. The US govt cannot claim your theoretical Canadian- he has to choose to be a US citizen. He has to claim it. If he & Canada say he's Canadian, he's Canadian & that's that. I suspect that the option to claim US citizenship will be open to him his entire life with no obligation on his part to ever do so.

Claiming dual citizenship is likely possible, so if he wants US citizenship he has to pay taxes just like the rest of us.

Completely wrong; your suspicion on claiming is not based on any precedent and isn't how US citizenship works. You don't "claim" citizenship; you either have it or you don't.

Nobody "claims" US citizenship as if it is an optional card on a table. You either are one by birth or you naturalize later on. Those are the only two ways to citizenship. You can of course acquire documentation affirming your citizenship that you already have (the process of acquisition of this will not grant any citizenship you don't already have), but you cannot "claim" it as if it is some option open to you at a time of your choosing. You won't find any form at uscis.gov that allows a person to submit a declaration that they have now decided to exercise their optional US citizenship right.

Actually no, it depends on how long that parent lived in the U.S. if they moved to Canada as a child, then you would NOT be a U.S citizen.

Actually yes. Like you said, it depends.
http://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship/citizenship-through-parents

 

[Blanky]

As far as double taxation, yes you won't be doubly taxed, but it's not quite the entire matter. If the US has a tax that your other country doesn't you can get dinged hard, case in point: http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...s-johnson-settles-u-s-tax-bill-ahead-of-visit

Similarly, if you live in some shanty country making shanty money but you're paying at a US tax rate it isn't really fair for your quality of life there, which is why other countries don't have this strange law.

It will be interesting to see if the IRS starts hounding Americans living in Canada when they cross the border. I've a friend who travels in and out of the country to Canada on his US passport (born in Canada, but his dad was a US citizen, so he's a dual) and Canadian on the way into Canada and I imagine neither he nor his siblings are filing with the IRS. At some point they could ask him.

 

[nickqt]

As far as double taxation, yes you won't be doubly taxed, but it's not quite the entire matter. If the US has a tax that your other country doesn't you can get dinged hard, case in point: http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...s-johnson-settles-u-s-tax-bill-ahead-of-visit

Similarly, if you live in some shanty country making shanty money but you're paying at a US tax rate it isn't really fair for your quality of life there, which is why other countries don't have this strange law.

It will be interesting to see if the IRS starts hounding Americans living in Canada when they cross the border. I've a friend who travels in and out of the country to Canada on his US passport (born in Canada, but his dad was a US citizen, so he's a dual) and Canadian on the way into Canada and I imagine neither he nor his siblings are filing with the IRS. At some point they could ask him.

I say stop taxing individuals on their income from foreign countries, and instead allow the IRS to tax corporations on their foreign income, regardless of where they park it. How about that? Sound ok?

 

[werepossum]

As an Amurica-hating libruul, I have already called all of my anti-Christian atheist friends and Muslim allies to call for him to be strung up and crucified.

Because his very existence offends me.

Laughably stupid, yet you actually believe this. Wow.

Keep on demonizing anyone who isn't a member of your tribe while warning fellow tribe members that everyone else is out to get 'em.

Read the two po-

Sorry. Have someone read to you the two posts immediately after his, and explain them to you. Slowly.

 

[nickqt]

Read the two po-

Sorry. Have someone read to you the two posts immediately after his, and explain them to you. Slowly.

Two libruuls who say that not everyone has 200K in assets at 26, and that his particular assets don't represent everyone else means that they are offended by his "very existence"?

Is that what I'm supposed to read from that...er, I mean have explained to me by someone else because clearly I have trouble with reading comprehension?

You go find yourself an interpreter. I can read just fine. Neither of those two libruuls implied in any way that they were offended by his "very existence"

 

[Jhhnn]

Smart couple. We need more people like you. Sad that even though this behavior doesn't define you as left or right, your very existence offends much of the far left.

Not at all. The fact that fortune has smiled upon me provides no moral superiority & no right to look down upon people not similarly blessed, that's all.

It's not rocket science.

 

[glenn1]

How many rich have an address that just so happens to be in a place with low taxes? How many claim to live some where else but stay in the US?

I'm fine with citizens who live abroad and have absolutely no assets in the US and do not visit or receive any income from the US, not being taxed.

Add a de minimis exception to all three of those and I think we both agree. I see no reason why someone who truly is an expat couldn't occasionally return to the U.S. for tourism or periodic family visits, or have a small U.S. based bank account to facilitate that travel. Which I believe is exactly how the other countries do things.

The middle class welder guy who married an Australian girl and moved there but returns to the U.S. once a decade for weddings or funerals shouldn't be the same category as a billionaire trying to claim residence in the Cayman Islands when he spends 330 days of the year working at his Silicon Valley software firm.

 

[Jhhnn]

A million Americans in Canada and I'm quite sure the bulk are not at all filing with the IRS. I don't believe IRS has posted numbers, as data to that effect is not in its interest

http://business.financialpost.com/2014/06/10/for-americans-in-canada-another-tax-deadline-looms/

The basis of your being sure about that is, as you admit, pure conjecture, given that no numbers are available. Your stated "reason" for the lack of numbers is also conjecture.

Completely wrong; your suspicion on claiming is not based on any precedent and isn't how US citizenship works. You don't "claim" citizenship; you either have it or you don't.

Nobody "claims" US citizenship as if it is an optional card on a table. You either are one by birth or you naturalize later on. Those are the only two ways to citizenship. You can of course acquire documentation affirming your citizenship that you already have (the process of acquisition of this will not grant any citizenship you don't already have), but you cannot "claim" it as if it is some option open to you at a time of your choosing. You won't find any form at uscis.gov that allows a person to submit a declaration that they have now decided to exercise their optional US citizenship right.
Actually yes. Like you said, it depends.
http://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship/citizenship-through-parents

Actually, yes, as I offered. Thanks for acknowledging that.

 

[shira]

Alright. Make's sense. Thanks for clarifying. What's your opinion on this making up the difference thing, though? Seem fair? Why do you think nobody else does it? If i earned 150k (which I certainly don't), i'd be paying 11% tax locally and like 28% to the us federal government. That's quite a lot of difference to make up. And for what? If i lived in another region of this same country i'd be paying 5%, making the difference quite insane.

You'd only be "making up the difference" on earned income that's over the exclusion amount. In your example, you'd pay 11% (or 5%) on the first $101,000 and you wouldn't "make up the difference" for U.S. taxes on that income. On the last $49,000, you'd pay 11% (or 5%) to the local country and an additional 17% (or 23%) to the U.S. In other words, your total income tax would be at least $17,000 lower than that of an American who made the $150,000 in the U.S.