Why Americans don't wanna be Americans anymore?Record number of renounced citizenship

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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,517
15,399
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Going with the law is the law response doesn't answer the question. He is asking why does this country believe it should have a law that taxes people who live outside its borders? There are no other western nations that have such a law. And I will add, do you believe that to be a just law?

How many rich have an address that just so happens to be in a place with low taxes? How many claim to live some where else but stay in the US?

I'm fine with citizens who live abroad and have absolutely no assets in the US and do not visit or receive any income from the US, not being taxed.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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It seems to be about why people are renouncing their citizenship, not about how many.

And these people have already "left." There are apparently 6.2 million americans living abroad, and the issue is why are an increasing number of them renouncing their US citizenships, instead of retaining them, and it seems to be because of taxes. Do these taxes make sense, etc...

The issue isn't whether or not the us is running out of people. :confused: The inducement to renounce also affects all of those 6.2m people and not just those who have renounced, and this inducement (taxes) could be judged to be either fair or unfair, or sensible or not, without there needing to be some kind of mass exodus.

I suspect that recent changes haven't made taxes any worse for honest expats, but rather have made the paperwork worse, burdensome, for regular middle class folk who never planned on coming home, anyway. They have dual citizenship in civilized places along with jobs & families & lives wherever they are. If current requirements are onerous for them, we need to figure out how to make it better. They didn't move offshore for tax purposes.
 

Subyman

Moderator <br> VC&G Forum
Mar 18, 2005
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It seems to be about why people are renouncing their citizenship, not about how many.

And these people have already "left." There are apparently 6.2 million americans living abroad, and the issue is why are an increasing number of them renouncing their US citizenships, instead of retaining them, and it seems to be because of taxes. Do these taxes make sense, etc...

The issue isn't whether or not the us is running out of people. :confused: The inducement to renounce also affects all of those 6.2m people and not just those who have renounced, and this inducement (taxes) could be judged to be either fair or unfair, or sensible or not, without there needing to be some kind of mass exodus, and whether or not it affects us personally.

It isn't a new issue though. People have long renounced their citizenship in the thousands, but its just not statistically relevant.

There seems to be a lot of variation in the data too. 2005 was 800 then 2006 was only 250. 2010 was 1500. Data goes back to 1996, but you'd have to look through the federal registrar and collect all of that data yourself, the government doesn't provide an easy means of seeing those numbers.

It costs quite a bit of money too, I was reading that it costs over $2000 to renounce your citizenship.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
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Well, first off, there are tax treaties that cover this. So, depending on the country an expatriate lives in, these treaties may have reduced or eliminated the whole "double taxation" issue.
-snip-

No. This is incorrect.

Yes, we do have tax treaties with many countries, but they don't work the way you think.

In every Income Tax Treaty there is something called a 'Savings Clause'. In effect, the Savings Clause denies the tax treaty benefits to US citizens and residents:

Most tax treaties have a saving clause and it is important to understand what the savings clause means. A saving clause preserves or &#8220;saves&#8221; the right of each country to tax its own residents as if no tax treaty existed. Therefore, if you become a resident alien for tax purposes in the USA, you generally lose any tax treaty benefits.
http://www.vanderbilt.edu/visit/international-tax/tax_treaty_savings_clause.php


Fern
 
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justoh

Diamond Member
Jun 11, 2013
3,686
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I suspect that recent changes haven't made taxes any worse for honest expats, but rather have made the paperwork worse, burdensome, for regular middle class folk who never planned on coming home, anyway. They have dual citizenship in civilized places along with jobs & families & lives wherever they are. If current requirements are onerous for them, we need to figure out how to make it better. They didn't move offshore for tax purposes.

True. It's just made it harder for expats who want to hide assets because they think being a citizen of essentially the only nation in the world which taxes foreign earned income is unfair, or something.

They're dishonest, sure, but maybe it's worth talking about whether or not it's fair to be subject to lifelong tax obligations in the first place, regardless of where you live or earn your living.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
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If you are a US citizen, you have all of the rights and privileges of a US citizen. This includes SS, Medicare, Medicaid, and a multitude of other rights, privileges, and protections that a non-US citizen doesn't have.

That is why I think a US citizen should have to pay US income taxes, regardless of what chunk of land they are living on while earning their income.

No. No you don't.

I have lived and worked in several foreign countries.

You are under the laws of the foreign country in which you reside. You have none of the rights guaranteed under the Constitution. E.g., the 4th amendment doesn't apply. Whether you live in the foreign country or are just traveling through on vacation etc you are under the jurisdiction of the foreign country's laws.

You have no right to SS because of US citizenship. You have a right to it if you paid enough to qualify for benefits. When you work in a foreign country you will be paying into their system and not U.S. SS. I.e., you will not receive any SS benefits.

I do not believe Medicare or Medicaid cover medical expenses incurred abroad. I.e., you do not get these benefits.

Fern
 
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Subyman

Moderator <br> VC&G Forum
Mar 18, 2005
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No. No you don't.

I have lived and worked in several foreign countries.

You are under the laws of the foreign country in which you reside. You have none of the rights guaranteed under the Constitution. E.g., the 4th amendment doesn't apply. Whether you live in the foreign country or are just traveling through on vacation etc you are under the jurisdiction of the foreign country's laws.

You have no right to SS because of US citizenship. You have a right to it if you paid enough to qualify for benefits. When you work in a foreign country you will be paying into their system and not U.S. SS. I.e., you will not receive any SS benefits.

I do not believe Medicare or Medicaid cover medical expenses incurred abroad. I.e., you do not get these benefits.

Fern

You are correct:

In general, health care you get while traveling outside the U.S. isn't covered. The 50 states, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, the U.S. Virgin Islands, Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands, and American Samoa are considered part of the U.S.

http://www.medicare.gov/coverage/travel-need-health-care-outside-us.html

I've never given that much thought, good to know.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
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Meanwhile, the US gained nearly 780,000 citizens in 2013-

http://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/ois_natz_fr_2013.pdf

This whole snit is just another manifestation of trumped up right wing persecution fantasies.

Citizenship based tax dodging has always been a ploy for the demi-riche. In Europe, sports stars want to become citizens of Monaco. In the US, businessmen want to become citizens of Bermuda. OTOH, Rupert Murdoch became a US citizen in 1985 so he could advance his media empire in the US & never looked back. Go figure.

The whole persecution of the Rich song & dance is utterly dishonest astroturfing.

You are breathtakingly stupid in your knee jerk partisan reaction and rants.

There is no "trumped up right wing persecution fantasies".

It appears you have not read the article nor are otherwise familiar with recent tax law changes/requirements etc.

This issue is NOT about double taxation. The concept of worldwide taxation is not new. American citizens have been taxed on their worldwide income since 1913; the first year of income taxation. (It was settled in one of the first SCOTUS cases on taxation.)

What IS new are requirements for reporting money or property held abroad. This can be as simple as a bank or savings account, or as complicated as a foreign retirement plan.

I cannot adequately emphasize the complexity and difficulty of complying with these laws. As a CPA I have been doing international tax for over 30 yrs. This garbage is about as complicated as it gets. That's saying a lot.

The penalties for failure to complete the numerous, lengthy and complicated forms are huge.

The fees people must pay to have their tax returns completed, both to eliminate double taxation and comply with these financial forms, are becoming ridiculously high. In a foreign country your access to a professional competent in US tax is both limited and expensive. I worked in the European HQ of one of the largest most well known firms assisting people in US tax matters. Back in the late 80's and early 90's that firm charged nearly $1,000 an hour for my time. I have no idea what it is now but imagine it to be higher. I'm sure there are some US CPA's who live over there and work on their own and surely charge less, but it is still going to be quite high.

The aggravation, stress, cost and risk of penalties is what is driving people to dump US citizenship. The great majority of these are:

1. Foreigners who worked for a large multinational company and were assigned to work in the US for a period of years. Some get Green Cards. Some of those will go on to get US citizenship. Previously it wasn't that big of a deal to have to file an annual US tax return. But as everyone knows, over the years tax law has become insanely complex, even more so for these people. So, they are turning in their US passports. It's simply not worth it.

2. People who, for whatever reason, move abroad. Many are like me, they worked abroad for a large firm and ended up marrying a 'native'. Some of these will remain in the foreign country after their assignment abroad is up. These people, who were born and raised in the US and have family here, are now also dropping their US citizenship because of this crap. They've, in effect, been forced to renounce their citizenship and make the decision to stay away.

The number of wealthy people doing this to avoid US taxation is incredibly small, if any at all. If you're wealthy you already have all the professional help you need. You already have international tax lawyers and CPAs handling your matters. You're already taking advantage of every loophole and planning strategy money can buy. These people are not forced into anything.

As usual, this is just another story of the 'little man' getting crushed by a runaway federal bureaucracy.

Fern
 
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Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,745
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So let's say that a pregnant French woman travelling to Vancouver and connecting via JFK airport goes into labor pre-term. You think that because of completely unexpected circumstances the child was born in the waiting area of Terminal 8, that the baby should pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in U.S. taxes for the rest of his life?

Small price to pay to be born in the one nation under god. What you want the little chap to be godless? :'(
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,469
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Don't think anyone else has to put up with that nonsense.

No - there is one other world super power that does this: Eretria

This includes SS, Medicare, Medicaid, and a multitude of other rights, privileges, and protections that a non-US citizen doesn't have.

FWIW there are a number of citizens ineligible for SS. For example TRS eligible employees in Illinois do not get SS
 

StinkyPinky

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2002
6,883
1,096
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Yeah I'm a perfect example of this actually

Born in California to a British mother and New Zealand father, I have spent probably 75% of my life living outside of the US but still need to pay freaking taxes to the US govt.

The process is complicated too. Ive probably messed it up at some point and will have the IRS threatening me with jail if I return.
 

DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,020
9
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If you don't owe any money, and you don't file, no one cares. The IRS isn't going to arrest you for not reporting everything when in the end the amount owed is zero.

There is some de minimus amount too, so even if you owed $500, no is going to notice if you didn't file or pay.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
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If you don't owe any money, and you don't file, no one cares. The IRS isn't going to arrest you for not reporting everything when in the end the amount owed is zero.

There is some de minimus amount too, so even if you owed $500, no is going to notice if you didn't file or pay.

This is completely wrong.

You either have a responsibility to file or you don't. If you do and don't file you can and will get into a world of hurt. There is no statute of limitations when you fail to file.

Fern
 
Nov 25, 2013
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Love it or leave it. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Welcome back. Things just haven't been the same since you died.

A000059.jpg
 
Nov 8, 2012
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If you read the article you'd have noticed early on that the author answers these very questions by blaming the new Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act.

The source for this is CNBC's article from Tuesday: http://www.cnbc.com/id/102413492#.

Not just people are leaving America. Large companies are also favoring places with more favorable costs for their HQs.

Ding ding.

The majority are people that are LIVING INTERNATIONALLY in a foreign country and must report their foreign income/assets to the US (Thanks to FATCA) every year, even though they have nothing to do with the US.

FATCA was made in an obvious effort to try and stop people offshoring accounts full of loads of money. Except it's screwing over simple people just trying to make it through life.
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/feb/11/us-mass-exodus-record-number-of-americans-renounce/

A record-setting number of Americans renounced their citizenship in 2014, up from 2,999 in 2013 to 3,415, Treasury Department statistics showed.

Because of raising taxes? Low-life level? CRIMINAL VIOLATIONS OF CIVIL RIGHTS? Why these people decided not to be Americans? 3.415...

Wait a sec, that's just .001% of our population. I am trying like hell to give a shit.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
No. This is incorrect.

Yes, we do have tax treaties with many countries, but they don't work the way you think.

In every Income Tax Treaty there is something called a 'Savings Clause'. In effect, the Savings Clause denies the tax treaty benefits to US citizens and residents:


http://www.vanderbilt.edu/visit/international-tax/tax_treaty_savings_clause.php


Fern

The very next paragraph-

However, many tax treaties also have an exception to the saving clause. The exception to the saving clause usually allows you to to continue to claim certain treaty benefits even when you become a resident alien for tax purposes. Please review your tax treaty carefully to find out if it has a saving clause and/or and exception to the saving clause.

Nice try anyway.
 

DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,020
9
81
Ding ding.

The majority are people that are LIVING INTERNATIONALLY in a foreign country and must report their foreign income/assets to the US (Thanks to FATCA) every year, even though they have nothing to do with the US.

FATCA was made in an obvious effort to try and stop people offshoring accounts full of loads of money. Except it's screwing over simple people just trying to make it through life.

What is so complicated about filling out a form and mailing it into the IRS.
 

DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,020
9
81
Apparently you only have to file if your assets exceed 200,000, no big deal. Only affects the rich.
 
Nov 8, 2012
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Apparently you only have to file if your assets exceed 200,000, no big deal. Only affects the rich.

200k is rich? You're going to be a Walmart Greeter at the age of 76 aren't you?

What do you think assets are? I'm 26 and I have over 200k in assets. I don't even make 6 figures, I'm just not a dumbass with money.

Just like people stupid enough to think you can't claim tax credits when you aren't paying taxes, some of you should really learn to hold your tongue sometimes :rolleyes:
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,517
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Are they? The first country I had in mind was Ireland...

They don't physically move their company to Ireland though. For example, apple has a shell company setup in Ireland that owns all of it's tech patents, apple pays that company for use of the IP which allows them to avoid taxes in the US.

I think what the poster was implying was that companies who rely on labor are moving to countries with no labor laws (I don't know if that's true or not).
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,517
15,399
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200k is rich? You're going to be a Walmart Greeter at the age of 76 aren't you?

What do you think assets are? I'm 26 and I have over 200k in assets. I don't even make 6 figures, I'm just not a dumbass with money.

Just like people stupid enough to think you can't claim tax credits when you aren't paying taxes, some of you should really learn to hold your tongue sometimes :rolleyes:

Unless you are married and 55 or older or have a professional degree, the average (median) American has less than 200k in assests, in fact the median net wealth is less than 70k.

http://www.census.gov/people/wealth/files/Wealth_Tables_2011.xlsx