Why a new socket for Llano?

[DrMrLordX]

Rumor has it that Llano will require an entirely new socket that is not compatible with AM3. Many seem to be taking for granted that this is necessary, but I'm not sure why that is.

From a layman's perspective, Llano hardly taxes the socket any more than, say, Thuban:

The top-end desktop Llano is supposed to be a 55w part, so that means that there would likely be no need for additional power pins for Llano (unless they are absolutely needed to keep the GPU part of the die running on its own voltage plane).

It is said that Llano will have no more or less available memory bandwidth for the CPU and GPU portions of the APU than existing DDR3 platforms, so there should be no need for the GPU to have its own memory controller or additional pins to accommodate memory access that said memory controller would require to function - the GPU should be able to utilize the existing memory controller serving the four cores of the CPU, even though it seems that AMD may have chosen to give the GPU its own memory controller anyway (for reasons that I can not fathom).

Obviously, existing AM3 boards with no integrated graphics would have no way to pass a video signal from Llano's GPU to the monitor, but this should not be an insurmountable problem on AM2+/AM3 boards already equipped with an IGP (and yes, the power that the IGP would be sucking up would be wasted power, but still).

Otherwise, it would take nothing more than a chipset update to get Llano into AM3 boards with an integrated dvi/hdmi out intended to support Llano's GPU (in much the same fashion that Intel added LGA1156 chipsets to accommodate Clarksdale's IGP).

It would be really cool if Llano were a drop-in (with BIOS update) for AM2+/AM3 owners that already have a board with an IGP.

 

[Scali]

Obviously, existing AM3 boards with no integrated graphics would have no way to pass a video signal from Llano's GPU to the monitor

I think that's the reason. And it WOULD be an insurmountable problem. The only way to get an image to the IGP is to make the APU render it into system memory, and then copy it to the framebuffer of the IGP. Makes no sense.
I think AM3 users should just stick to GPU-less CPUs.

 

[JFAMD]

All of your routing for video on the board needs to come from the socket vs. the video controller.

That is why you need a new socket. It's akin to saying why can't I just plug DDR3 into DDR2 sockets, whay do I need a different board.

 

[heyheybooboo]

All of your routing for video on the board needs to come from the socket vs. the video controller.

That is why you need a new socket. It's akin to saying why can't I just plug DDR3 into DDR2 sockets, whay do I need a different board.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

Need many more pins (or 'landings', maybe?) to account for the Liano on-die GPU.




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[Soleron]

They're also moving more of the NB functionality on to the CPU die (like Lynnfield did) and having a single-chip southbridge rather than a two-chip chipset.

The move will only need to be done once though, if they plan ahead. Future Fusion products will likely fit in Llano's socket(s) for the next few years.

Enthusiasts are the only ones that will realistically upgrade their AMD CPUs without changing the motherboard, and they would get Bulldozer (which does work in AM3) and a discrete GPU.

 

[DrMrLordX]

The only way to get an image to the IGP is to make the APU render it into system memory, and then copy it to the framebuffer of the IGP.

Well, point is, it would be doable . . . potentially at a heavy cost to system memory bandwidth for which the APU will be starved anyway.

I think AM3 users should just stick to GPU-less CPUs.

AM3 users will be doing that regardless.

All of your routing for video on the board needs to come from the socket vs. the video controller.

That is why you need a new socket. It's akin to saying why can't I just plug DDR3 into DDR2 sockets, whay do I need a different board.

There were hybrid DDR/DDR2 motherboards out there, if I recall. There are also hybrid ddr2/ddr3 boards . . . however, such solutions are not always the best performing products on the market, so to speak.

As per Scali's post above, Llano probably could be made to work on AM2+/AM3 boards with IGPs, but I don't think it would out as well as people might like.

 

[Scali]

AM3 users will be doing that regardless.

What I mean is, Llano will most probably not mean the end of GPU-less CPUs, AMD will probably continue to release new Am3 CPUs aswell. Intel also has both CPUs with and without integrated GPUs.
And then there's no reason to make Llano work on Am3.

 

[cbn]

The top-end desktop Llano is supposed to be a 55w part, so that means that there would likely be no need for additional power pins for Llano (unless they are absolutely needed to keep the GPU part of the die running on its own voltage plane).

I thought the Desktop Llano was 75-100 watts. (mobile up to 45 watts)

 

[DrMrLordX]

What I mean is, Llano will most probably not mean the end of GPU-less CPUs, AMD will probably continue to release new Am3 CPUs aswell. Intel also has both CPUs with and without integrated GPUs.

Well yes, Zambezi is supposed to be an AM3 proc.

And then there's no reason to make Llano work on Am3.

I wouldn't know about that. It's an interesting product, and if you're using an older video card that chews up a boatload of power, like my 8800GTX, then the idea of replacing it by moving to Llano would be pretty attractive. Being able to work out some sort of hybrid Xfire with the Llano GPU and a discrete AMD/ATI vid card would be even more interesting.

Having to move to an entirely new board to explore Llano might not be so attractive. If the chips and boards are cheap enough, however . . .

I thought the Desktop Llano was 75-100 watts. (mobile up to 45 watts)

The last numbers I heard were 20W for the top-end mobile Llano and 55W for the desktop version. That should not be taken as canon, of course.

 

[alkemyst]

Thing is more aren't 'upgrading' they are replacing. Let's face it the majority of people out there are buying WAY too much computing power. I am willing to bet if we got locked at P4 3.0GHz and 6600GT video that 90% out there would be fine doing just the email, web and their simple games.

With SSD technology (and I see the end of CD/DVDs going to Flash) coming on strong, soon PC's will no longer be the 'boxes' they once were. I see monitors, speakers and the rest of the desktop setup being the real size in PC real estate.

 

[ModestGamer]

From a OEM average desktop/Office Pc user perspective this makes perfect sense to incorporate all those chipset features into the chip. Think about the savings on producing a motherboard. Should be fiarly large by reduing the parts count. Figure in the economy of scale and it is a great solution. Soon I bet we see totally intergrated PC on a chip type solutions with minimal outboard structure for use in work stations etc.

Glorified microcontrollers.

 

[OBLAMA2009]

Thing is more aren't 'upgrading' they are replacing. Let's face it the majority of people out there are buying WAY too much computing power. I am willing to bet if we got locked at P4 3.0GHz and 6600GT video that 90% out there would be fine doing just the email, web and their simple games.

With SSD technology (and I see the end of CD/DVDs going to Flash) coming on strong, soon PC's will no longer be the 'boxes' they once were. I see monitors, speakers and the rest of the desktop setup being the real size in PC real estate.

i dont agree that most people are buying too much computing power. operating sytems and web pages take a lot more computing power now than a few years ago. im using a dual core 2.5 ghz right now and it definitely sputters a little when web surfing or doing video, and thats running linux. if it were running window 7 it would probably feel sluggish.

 

[alkemyst]

something must be set up wrong or you are mistaking bandwidth issues.

My wife's last laptop was a PIII 1.2GHz. She was running Windows XP Home. 1GB of ram.

Surfing the web and doing her email (Outlook) was not much different if any than my tri-core 3.6GHz Phenom setup.

Most people are buying WAY too much computer. The base Dells are even overkill for most people's needs, yet they feel bumping up the machine across the board.

 

[Scali]

i dont agree that most people are buying too much computing power. operating sytems and web pages take a lot more computing power now than a few years ago. im using a dual core 2.5 ghz right now and it definitely sputters a little when web surfing or doing video, and thats running linux. if it were running window 7 it would probably feel sluggish.

I think it's probably the other way around.
Windows 7 has better support for GPU acceleration for video, flash, HTML 5 etc than linux.

 

[cbn]

Windows 7 has better support for GPU acceleration for video, flash, HTML 5 etc

How much will Llano help in that regard compared to Sandy Bridge with Intel IGP?

 

[LoneNinja]

i dont agree that most people are buying too much computing power. operating sytems and web pages take a lot more computing power now than a few years ago. im using a dual core 2.5 ghz right now and it definitely sputters a little when web surfing or doing video, and thats running linux. if it were running window 7 it would probably feel sluggish.

Web and video are perfectly smooth for me using Vista and a Phenom X4 downclocked to 1.4Ghz. I rarely run at stock speed because I see absolutely no difference in performance for the majority of what my PC is used for.

 

[lopri]

It will depends on what kind of contents you prefer and what kind of apps you're running. On one hand we have a majority of users and apps that don't need much processing power. (think MS office and traditional web usage) But at the same time that majority of us - especially younger generation - also want richer and higher quality web/computing experience, and that's where the industry is moving. For example, check out the following site and imagine what the web might look like 10 years later.

http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/Performance/FishIE%20tank/Default.html (Try Full-screen as well and see how many fish your browser can handle!)

(note: Chrome seems to have trouble with the above page. Opera 10.60 FTW!)

Edit: Realized my post was kind of off-topic. On topic - I hope AMD will ditch PGA/ZIF sockets in favor of LGA sockets)

 

[cbn]

It will depends on what kind of contents you prefer and what kind of apps you're running. On one hand we have a majority of users and apps that don't need much processing power. (think MS office and traditional web usage) But at the same time that majority of us - especially younger generation - also want richer and higher quality web/computing experience, and that's where the industry is moving. For example, check out the following site and imagine what the web might look like 10 years later.

http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/Performance/FishIE tank/Default.html (Try Full-screen as well and see how many fish your browser can handle!)

(note: Chrome seems to have trouble with the above page. Opera 10.60 FTW!)

Edit: Realized my post was kind of off-topic. On topic - I hope AMD will ditch PGA/ZIF sockets in favor of LGA sockets)

Thanks for this post.

I'd like to see more 3D graphics myself, but I'm thinking most folks will want this only if it helps their productivity?

Unfortunately, (at least from my humble standpoint) it seems most programs aimed at the general populace cater to the lowest common denominator. In the case of Today's hardware that would be Intel GMA graphics.

P.S. What do you think about WebGL? How would that fit into the browser performance you are mentioning. Is there anything unique performance or feature wise WebGL could give us?

 

[LoneNinja]

It will depends on what kind of contents you prefer and what kind of apps you're running. On one hand we have a majority of users and apps that don't need much processing power. (think MS office and traditional web usage) But at the same time that majority of us - especially younger generation - also want richer and higher quality web/computing experience, and that's where the industry is moving. For example, check out the following site and imagine what the web might look like 10 years later.

http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/Performance/FishIE tank/Default.html (Try Full-screen as well and see how many fish your browser can handle!)

(note: Chrome seems to have trouble with the above page. Opera 10.60 FTW!)

Edit: Realized my post was kind of off-topic. On topic - I hope AMD will ditch PGA/ZIF sockets in favor of LGA sockets)

That page is working fine for me with Chrome.

 

[Scali]

How much will Llano help in that regard compared to Sandy Bridge with Intel IGP?

Your guess is as good as mine

 

[grimpr]

Intel ate AMDs bait with the mainstream/socket 1155 Sandy Bridge, dedicating more die area for its crappy graphics core, well done Intel.

 

[cbn]

Intel ate AMDs bait with the mainstream/socket 1155 Sandy Bridge, dedicating more die area for its crappy graphics core, well done Intel.

Yep, raising the lowest common denominator in IGPs (Sandy Bridge GMA) should no doubt help MS move things along.

According to a recent Daily Tech article, leaked info is showing Windows 8 as having a 3D desktop.

 

[lopri]

P.S. What do you think about WebGL? How would that fit into the browser performance you are mentioning. Is there anything unique performance or feature wise WebGL could give us?

I don't know much about WebGL. Barely heard of it alongside HTML5. But from the looks of it, it definitely has a potential to be open standard for 3D web. Since it'll obviously be OS agonistic (hopefully), the potential can be huge.

Yep, raising the lowest common denominator in IGPs (Sandy Bridge GMA) should no doubt help MS move things along.

According to a recent Daily Tech article, leaked info is showing Windows 8 as having a 3D desktop.

I'd like that. I like Windows 7 but it's kinda lame that it doesn't even have a native ability to manage virtual desktops, in 2010.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC5uEe5OzNQ&playnext_from=TL&videos=l3cKK1MeMUM (A famous clip which compares Vista desktop to Ubuntu + Beryl; Ubuntu part starts at 1:30 into the clip)

 

[grimpr]

Windows 7 has more lame excuses for it, dont worry, one of the 1st things to do in a Windows system is install NTP on it and that, by itself, tells a lot. Also, there's no comparison whatsoever between Windows and Linux OS internals, like cpu schedulers, memory managers and filesystems, Microsofts are years behind. Now if only they (Linux devs) could agree on something simple like a modern multimedia framework from the kernel up and put the heat on the opensource graphics drivers, it could turn a sea breeze into a tidal wave starting from enthusiast desktops.

Ontopic, Llano will come a with beefy pin count.

 

[Scali]

Why would you need NTP on a regular home/office machine, or even the average workstation/server?

As for CPU schedulers etc... I don't think you even want to start that argument, when linux needs a custom-built kernel with unofficial kernel/driver patches for use as a Digital Audio Workstation, in order to get the latency down far enough to allow low-latency realtime audio recording/processing.
Windows does it out-of-the-box, and does it better than even the patched linux distros aimed at DAW.