Whoa! New type of space drive discovered

[Ichinisan]

"Then we put a piece of cheese into the testing rig, and it also produced thrust."


:hmm:

I put my penis in the test chamber and the thrust measurements were off the charts!

 

[Jeff7]

I put my penis in the test chamber and the thrust measurements were off the charts!

Those charts probably only go up to a few hundred millinewtons.....

 

[norseamd]

And ion drives produce very little thrust - something like a piece of paper resting on a table. But they produce that thrust with very little propellant. No, they're not good for quick acceleration. Let go long enough though, and you can get some pretty nice speed.

What about if we combine nuclear electric propulsion with jettisonable chemical rockets?

 

[solsa]

pretty interesting but nasa reports discovering alien bacteria every year. That gives me doubt on this piece of news.

 

[Paratus]

Those charts probably only go up to a few hundred millinewtons.....

Well they were picking up vibrations from folks leaving the building.

So his "thrust" is probably equal to the amount of vibration in the floor from quitting time.....

May want to see a doctor about that.

 

[BarkingGhostar]

The principle has never been demonstrated before.

Um, aren't most inventions this way? Santa certainly didn't bring them about.

 

[Paratus]

What about if we combine nuclear electric propulsion with jettisonable chemical rockets?

That's the idea. Chemicals to low earth orbit. Electric propulsion (solar or nuclear with ion, plasma, or q-thruster) to get to your destination.

 

[MongGrel]

Just assemble them in LOE used to be the old idea.

Then take off.

 

[SKORPI0]

Coming soon. World's Largest Solar Sail to Launch in November 2014

The Sunjammer project, slated to launch in 2014, will demonstrate "propellantless propulsion" offered by solar sails.
video - http://www.space.com/10320-solar-sails-clean-space-junk.html

A huge solar sail designed to demonstrate the viability and value of propellant***-free propulsion is slated to blast into space in November 2014, mission officials say.
NASA's Sunjammer spacecraft — whose 13,000-square-foot (1,208 square meters) sail will allow it to cruise through the heavens like a boat through the ocean — is scheduled to lift off atop a SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket from Florida's Cape Canaveral late next year.
Sunjammer will be a secondary payload on the Falcon 9, whose main task is launching the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's Deep Space Climate Observatory (DSCOVR) toward a gravitationally stable location called the Sun-Earth Lagrange Point 1, which lies about 900,000 miles (1.5 million kilometers) from our planet.

 

[MongGrel]

What about if we combine nuclear electric propulsion with jettisonable chemical rockets?

Was what I said a few days ago about a hybrid setup, but didn't elodorate past that.

Most people do not read and think I guess.

What's new.

*edit* sorry that was a bit rude.

 

[Fritzo]

Um, aren't most inventions this way? Santa certainly didn't bring them about.

Gosh yes yer right. You happy?

 

[norseamd]

That's the idea. Chemicals to low earth orbit. Electric propulsion (solar or nuclear with ion, plasma, or q-thruster) to get to your destination.

What I mean is once in low Earth orbit and orientated to Mars then we can burn jettisonable chemical rockets to get up to speed. We then jettison the empty weight and run of nuclear electric propulsion for the rest of the trip. So no need to wait for the nuclear electric propulsion to get up to speed over the usual weeks that it seems like it will probably take.

 

[norseamd]

Was what I said a few days ago about a hybrid setup, but didn't elodorate past that. Most people do not read and think I guess. What's new.

Well we can wait the years it will take to get VASIMR up to deployable standards or we can take the few years we need to refine the small fissionable power plant technology that already has tons of research done and combine it with solar sails and ion engines and chemical rockets that have decades of proven use.

 

[Paratus]

Well we can wait the years it will take to get VASIMR up to deployable standards or we can take the few years we need to refine the small fissionable power plant technology that already has tons of research done and combine it with solar sails and ion engines and chemical rockets that have decades of proven use.

VASIMR has been trying to fly a prototype for a couple of years now. It's basically ready for prime time. Just needs a mission and a beefy power supply. I got to see one of the earlier prototypes in action. (Benefits of working for NASA)

Plus you wouldn't want to carry a bunch of chemical fueled rockets AND electric propulsion. Any type of electric propulsion will catch and overtake any chemical rocket for most destinations. Makes more sense to use the mass of chemical rockets and fuel for a larger power plant, more electric thrusters and or more electric thruster propellant.

 

[norseamd]

Plus you wouldn't want to carry a bunch of chemical fueled rockets AND electric propulsion. Any type of electric propulsion will catch and overtake any chemical rocket for most destinations. Makes more sense to use the mass of chemical rockets and fuel for a larger power plant, more electric thrusters and or more electric thruster propellant.

Well the chemical rockets are only meant as boosters like the solid fuel booster rockets on the space shuttle. They are not meant to slow the craft down at all and that is why they are jettisonable. You would fire them at the beginning of the trip to build up massive speed and then jettison them right away after all of their fuel is burnt up.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Well the chemical rockets are only meant as boosters like the solid fuel booster rockets on the space shuttle. They are not meant to slow the craft down at all and that is why they are jettisonable. You would fire them at the beginning of the trip to build up massive speed and then jettison them right away after all of their fuel is burnt up.

I'm not sure it would be worth it. Unless you can manufacturer and deliver chemical propellants in space the costs will be perpetually prohibitive. Perhaps constructing a permanent fleet perpetually in motion throughout the solar system. If they need resupply less massive ships could catch larger ones by virtue of potentially greater acceleration. I would think there would be a whole host of possibilities but in all the ones I can envision the ones least tied to dependency on Earth would be most economical and therefore most likely.

 

[DrPizza]

While 720 millinewtons is "close to" 72 grams. If you're going to use two significant digits, it's closer to 73 grams. It's more than 73 grams.

Anyway, while I know what you mean, just to be a bit pedantic for a moment, a shuttle fully fueled for launch, with a 40kN thrst applied,

Someone check my math but a hurried calculation shows that a 40kN thrust applied to a mass equal to the space shuttle fully fueled for launch will cover 200 million km in 17 days. That is from 0 to vmax to 0 velocity.

isn't going anywhere. In order to go up, the thrust would have to exceed its weight, which is well over a million newtons.

(Yeah, I know, you already meant if it was in space, ignoring the gravitational influence of the Earth)



Personally, when you have something that breaks the laws of physics (conservation of momentum) - something that has NEVER been seen to be broken before, and you don't have a clue how it does it. In fact, a law that "when violated" has resulted in variety of discoveries of particles in modern physics (which result in, nope, conservation of momentum not violated). And the mechanism by which you think it works is demonstrated not to be the correct mechanism, then, it seems the following applies: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If I were a Vegas odds-maker, I'd be putting my money on "darn it!" As the vast majority of the time, these things turn out to be some overlooked mechanism that is readily explained with our current knowledge (and results in, darn it, back to the drawing board.)

 

[Paratus]

Well the chemical rockets are only meant as boosters like the solid fuel booster rockets on the space shuttle. They are not meant to slow the craft down at all and that is why they are jettisonable. You would fire them at the beginning of the trip to build up massive speed and then jettison them right away after all of their fuel is burnt up.

The only way what you are saying would improve transit times would be something like this?


NASA examines hybrid solar-electric propulsion for manned space missions

Basically using a big rocket to put your vehicle in orbit. Using the electric propulsion to leave earths orbit which takes a while. Then launching your crew on another big rocket to catch the transfer vehicle and give it a push with whatever's left in the tanks?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

"Darn it" is all too often the end result, but sometimes you get lucky

What I'm hoping for (and yes it's hope, not anything concrete) is that quantum weirdness may prevail. After all classical physics says that devices like Josephison junctions can't work, and yet they do via quantum tunnelling. I'm not going to bet the farm in Vegas, but maybe I'll slip a few quarters into the slot machine and see what happens

 

[Paratus]

While 720 millinewtons is "close to" 72 grams. If you're going to use two significant digits, it's closer to 73 grams. It's more than 73 grams.

Anyway, while I know what you mean, just to be a bit pedantic for a moment, a shuttle fully fueled for launch, with a 40kN thrst applied,

isn't going anywhere. In order to go up, the thrust would have to exceed its weight, which is well over a million newtons.

(Yeah, I know, you already meant if it was in space, ignoring the gravitational influence of the Earth)



Personally, when you have something that breaks the laws of physics (conservation of momentum) - something that has NEVER been seen to be broken before, and you don't have a clue how it does it. In fact, a law that "when violated" has resulted in variety of discoveries of particles in modern physics (which result in, nope, conservation of momentum not violated). And the mechanism by which you think it works is demonstrated not to be the correct mechanism, then, it seems the following applies: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If I were a Vegas odds-maker, I'd be putting my money on "darn it!" As the vast majority of the time, these things turn out to be some overlooked mechanism that is readily explained with our current knowledge (and results in, darn it, back to the drawing board.)

Fair enough. It also troubles me that the null test produced thrust. There's something going on that is not well understood. However this is the third or fourth group that's found anomalous thrust.

I'm also not convinced there is a violation of momentum going on. For the time the virtual particles interact with the electro-magnetic field of the thruster there should be a transfer of momentum going on. Whether the particles that are pushed on are annihilated sometime later shouldn't effect the conservation of momentum. I maybe missing something. Quantum mechanics is not something I have formal training in.

 

[Paratus]

"Darn it" is all too often the end result, but sometimes you get lucky

What I'm hoping for (and yes it's hope, not anything concrete) is that quantum weirdness may prevail. After all classical physics says that devices like Josephison junctions can't work, and yet they do via quantum tunnelling. I'm not going to bet the farm in Vegas, but maybe I'll slip a few quarters into the slot machine and see what happens

For the amount of budget involved that's probably the right analogy.

 

[norseamd]

The only way what you are saying would improve transit times would be something like this? NASA examines hybrid solar-electric propulsion for manned space missions Basically using a big rocket to put your vehicle in orbit. Using the electric propulsion to leave earths orbit which takes a while. Then launching your crew on another big rocket to catch the transfer vehicle and give it a push with whatever's left in the tanks?

Somewhat yeah!

This is for the trip to Mars if I was confusing at all by the way.

I would say orbital assembly of the spacecraft and then use ion engines as far as possible to the most efficient spot to burn the chemical booster rockets. Once the chemical rockets are out of fuel they are jettisoned and the spacecraft continues to use the ion drive to make it out to Mars. The crew could take chemical propelled spacecraft out to the Mars transit spacecraft after it is in the most optimal position if the positioning of the ion engines takes way too long. My guess is that the ion engines could be powered by a combination of small fission reactors and solar panels that charge some type of battery storage.

 

[norseamd]

My guess is that physics is like the biological diversity on Earth that recorded in scientific knowledge. That is that there is far more out there than we know about and are even theorizing about by scientists. Just more reasons why I am careful about trusting popular mainstream science. Even Albert Einstein did not understand quantum teleportation and I have some hard times understanding or accepting it as well.

 

[Ichinisan]

Somewhat yeah!

This is for the trip to Mars if I was confusing at all by the way.

I would say orbital assembly of the spacecraft and then use ion engines as far as possible to the most efficient spot to burn the chemical booster rockets. Once the chemical rockets are out of fuel they are jettisoned and the spacecraft continues to use the ion drive to make it out to Mars. The crew could take chemical propelled spacecraft out to the Mars transit spacecraft after it is in the most optimal position if the positioning of the ion engines takes way too long. My guess is that the ion engines could be powered by a combination of small fission reactors and solar panels that charge some type of battery storage.

Would Mars' atmosphere be enough to decelerate?

 

[norseamd]

Would Mars' atmosphere be enough to decelerate?

No this is for the transit spacecraft. Any landers for Mars would have their own descent and ascent propulsion systems. As for decelerating for Mars orbit You probably would just use the ion drive propulsion starting about halfway to Mars or you could bring some chemical rockets with and fire them up when you are close to Mars. You probably will not have to decelerate all of the way as the gravity of Mars can capture you and put you in the Mars orbit to stay until you need to leave. It is also possible to have unmanned cargo ships full of fuel, volatiles, and food waiting in Mars orbit from which your spacecraft can resupply.