Whoa! New type of space drive discovered

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cytg111

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
26,794
16,066
136
april 2015?

If they come back positive and the Brans-Dicke theory pans out, it will all be about scalability.
If they come back with thrust massive amounts of money will get poured into this field. Plus, new physics, YAY!
 
cytg111

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
26,794
16,066
136
disappoint said:
Seriously this thing is likely either Lorentz forces, thermal effects or magnetic field forces. It's still within experimental error. There is way too much hand waving and glossing over details so I am hereby labeling it as:

BS
Click to expand...

Yea, why wait for the REAL rocket scientists to come back with hard data when we can just blow it off cause.. trump or something. Right? :).

I
 
disappoint

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
10,132
382
126
cytg111 said:
Yea, why wait for the REAL rocket scientists to come back with hard data when we can just blow it off cause.. trump or something. Right? :).

I
Click to expand...

Wait? How long are you willing to wait? This thing was invented in 1999. It's been 17 years and they can't prove it works, or how it works? They can't get beyond results that are still within experimental error?

I want something to believe in too. But I'm not willing to be fooled or conned into it.
 
cytg111

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
26,794
16,066
136
December :).. The EW paper will make it or break it.

1999, the thing is that this Roger Shawyer may have discovered this tiny force yet have no concept of WHY it is working.. Very tiny force + no theory + VERY big claim (no reaction mass) == labeled crackpot. I am sure the guy havent done himself any favors. His day may come afterall now.
 
disappoint

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
10,132
382
126
cytg111 said:
December :).. The EW paper will make it or break it.

1999, the thing is that this Roger Shawyer may have discovered this tiny force yet have no concept of WHY it is working.. Very tiny force + no theory + VERY big claim (no reaction mass) == labeled crackpot. I am sure the guy havent done himself any favors. His day may come afterall now.
Click to expand...

That's not the reason he has been labeled a crackpot. It's perfectly fine to observe a phenomena and not have any idea how it works right away. Isaac Newton couldn't explain how gravitation worked when he first observed it. That didn't mean gravity wasn't real nor that Newton was a crackpot.

The reason I label Shawyer a crackpot is because according to this article:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/emdrive-ai...asa-eagleworks-space-propulsion-paper-1579443

he doesn't care if anyone validates his work. That is not the thought process of a true scientist.

EmDrive enthusiasts are excited by Eagleworks' involvement, although the US space agency has yet to officially validate the technology, with some believing it never will.

Either way, the British engineer/scientist Roger Shawyer, who invented the concept in 1999, does not really care if anyone validates his work, as he is already working with an unnamed UK aerospace company to develop the second generation of EmDrive, which will produce thrust that is many orders of magnitude greater than the thrust observed by Eagleworks or any other laboratory.
Click to expand...
 
Ruptga

Ruptga

Lifer
Aug 3, 2006
10,246
207
106
disappoint said:
That's not the reason he has been labeled a crackpot. It's perfectly fine to observe a phenomena and not have any idea how it works right away. Isaac Newton couldn't explain how gravitation worked when he first observed it. That didn't mean gravity wasn't real nor that Newton was a crackpot.

The reason I label Shawyer a crackpot is because according to this article:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/emdrive-ai...asa-eagleworks-space-propulsion-paper-1579443

he doesn't care if anyone validates his work. That is not the thought process of a true scientist.
Click to expand...
The guy might be a lunatic but if it works (as it seems to) then it works. Even a blind squirrel can find a few nuts.
 
zinfamous

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,992
31,550
146
disappoint said:
Wait? How long are you willing to wait? This thing was invented in 1999. It's been 17 years and they can't prove it works, or how it works? They can't get beyond results that are still within experimental error?

I want something to believe in too. But I'm not willing to be fooled or conned into it.
Click to expand...

The Steam engine was invented in Ancient Greece, c. 300 BCE or so.

This new engine powered by light farts is a relative neophyte with it's discovery-to-research phase compared to the 2k years it took the steam engine to become useful.
 
disappoint

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
10,132
382
126
zinfamous said:
The Steam engine was invented in Ancient Greece, c. 300 BCE or so.

This new engine powered by light farts is a relative neophyte with it's discovery-to-research phase compared to the 2k years it took the steam engine to become useful.
Click to expand...

True but it doesn't take that long to increase the power to a magnetron. We have those in microwave ovens that consume greater than 1kW of power. You have to wonder if they haven't done it because the results would not be within a margin of error anymore.
 
Paratus

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,754
16,093
146
@ Disappoint

While the effect hasn't been proven to a scientific certainty nor is there a a supported theory, (just hypothesises) neither is the work baseless.

Here's the facts:
  • two separate inventors have created these type of drives and measured small amounts of thrust, (EM Drive and Cannae)
  • Three seperate independent groups have tested these devices and measured small amounts of thrust, (a Chinese university group, NASA Eagle Works, and a German group)
  • When tested at atmospheric pressure both drives produced thrust.
  • Measured thrust reversed when the drives were mounted reversed.
  • No thrust was measured when the drives were replaced with a dummy RF load
  • In vacuum the EM drive showed thrust
  • Eagleworks held a panel of physicists to recommend improvements
  • Eagle Works was improving their test setup to reduce magnetic and thermal effects
 
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zinfamous

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,992
31,550
146
disappoint said:
True but it doesn't take that long to increase the power to a magnetron. We have those in microwave ovens that consume greater than 1kW of power. You have to wonder if they haven't done it because the results would not be within a margin of error anymore.
Click to expand...

I don't know anything about that, but I do know that I wanted to coin the term "engine powered by light farts."
 
Paratus

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,754
16,093
146
disappoint said:
True but it doesn't take that long to increase the power to a magnetron. We have those in microwave ovens that consume greater than 1kW of power. You have to wonder if they haven't done it because the results would not be within a margin of error anymore.
Click to expand...

NASA hasn't done it quickly because vacuum rated RF sources are expensive. It's what they've been working on since last year.

The Chinese did an atmospheric test with a couple of KW and got much higher forces, 720mN ~ 3 ounces of force.
http://www.wired.co.uk/article/emdrive-and-cold-fusion
 
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disappoint

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
10,132
382
126
Paratus said:
@ Disappoint

While the effect hasn't been proven to a scientific certainty nor is there a a supported theory, (just hypothesises) neither is the work baseless.

Here's the facts:
  • two separate inventors have created these type of drives and measured small amounts of thrust, (EM Drive and Cannae)
  • Three seperate independent groups have tested these devices and measured small amounts of thrust, (a Chinese university group, NASA Eagle Works, and a German group)
  • When tested at atmospheric pressure both drives produced thrust.
  • Measured thrust reversed when the drives were mounted reversed.
  • No thrust was measured when the drives were replaced with a dummy RF load
  • In vacuum the EM drive showed thrust
  • Eagleworks held a panel of physicists to recommend improvements
  • Eagle Works was improving their test setup to reduce magnetic and thermal effects
Click to expand...

I'll agree the work is not baseless as long as the work is based on empirical evidence and not hand waving.
 
cytg111

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
26,794
16,066
136
SMOGZINN

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,359
4,640
136
disappoint said:
True but it doesn't take that long to increase the power to a magnetron. We have those in microwave ovens that consume greater than 1kW of power. You have to wonder if they haven't done it because the results would not be within a margin of error anymore.
Click to expand...

I'm with you. This is almost certainly a hoax. If the EM drive works it proves Relativity wrong, and that is just not something that is going to happen. We have way too much evidence for Relativity for it to be disproved by a phenomenon that we should be able to measure pretty easily. Instead what researchers are really doing is improving on our testing methodology by finding a previously unknown error in our measurements.

Paratus said:
So I will remain optimistic yet cautiously skeptical. ;)
Click to expand...

On this one I remain skeptical with very little optimism.
 
Phoenix86

Phoenix86

Lifer
May 21, 2003
14,644
10
81
disappoint said:
I'll agree the work is not baseless as long as the work is based on empirical evidence and not hand waving.
Click to expand...
There was a lot of hand waving a few years ago. Since then there has been a small amount of actual evidence being built up with no negative tests. I completely agree with Paratus, optimistic yet cautiously skeptical.

We'll know with certainty once we get it in space and fire it up, proof is in the pudding. IF that works, we can continue to wring our hands and gnash our teeth on why it works and ones that's understood possibly make some strides on improving it.
 
MongGrel

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,466
3,067
121
zinfamous said:
man, this stuff is too complicated for me. Can someone tell me if rocket go fast?
Click to expand...

A Quantum Tunneling Photonic Fart drive is beyond my simple head, we need to learn how to feed it dark matter when we figure that one out someday :)

But constant thrust is a good thing.

Speaking in a space context of course. I miss not working working in labs these days.
 
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cytg111

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
26,794
16,066
136
Yea, consensus seems to be it is an early draft .. also that it was TheTraveller that leaked it. That guy is doing more harm than good IMO.
2 orders of magnitude better than a photon rocket.
Lots of rumors floating around, the chinese never abandoned the project, quite the opposite, testing it now on recently launched sattelite (something-17) etc. Lots and lots of rumors.. something is happening..
 
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