Whoa! New type of space drive discovered

[William Gaatjes]

Here is a brainfart :
Maybe the conservation of momentum in these special cases, is because an antenne radiates in all directions given an average force of 0. Maybe the way this device works, through interaction of the waves, refracting and so on is that this device causes a net result of em waves that is in one direction a bit more. When seen as photons, it would be that these photons would be pushed of in one direction. Maybe it is just something similar as radiation pressure. That the resulting accelerated photons actually push of against the innerwall of the test chamber the device is placed in.
And no laws are broken because the energy is supplied externally to the transmitter and antenna.

 

[CZroe]

Of course, being dead due to drowning is (currently) just as big of a problem as is being dead due to exposure to a vacuum.

No, because there is a near infinite source of breathable atmosphere relatively nearby and an easy escape vector from our ocean floor (emergency surfacing). In space, you're screwed.

What would be more difficult to design and maintain ?

A structure supporting a 1 bar cabin pressure in the vacuum of outerspace.
Or
A structure supporting the weight of thousands of pounds of pressure from the surrounding water at deep sea.

I would think that that cabin in outer space is more easier but to be honest i could be wrong.

Why are you assuming that it would be below the surface? A frozen planet with liquid water deep below the surface is one thing, but even then there wouldn't necessarily be any reason to live *in* the liquid water.

 

[CZroe]

What I am questioning is the timings of this tweet from Elon Musk. His tweet would have made sense back when this started getting into the news but now there are multiple testings of these experimental technologies.

The timing is perfect. Those tests are getting people excited leading some to jump to conclusions, like Fox News saying it can be used for faster than light warp travel.

It seems that they didn't hear him and they are the ones who needed to.

 

[Ichinisan]

The timing is perfect. Those tests are getting people excited leading some to jump to conclusions, like Fox News saying it can be used for faster than light warp travel.

It seems that they didn't hear him and they are the ones who needed to.

That iO9 article was still hung up on the "null drive" producing thrust as if it was a control test, which would indicate a fundamental flaw in the testing. It wasn't supposed to be a control. It was supposed to disprove *one* theory of how the drive worked; and it did exactly that. The actual control produced no thrust.

 

[norseamd]

What I am not getting is where did the light speed bullshit come from?

This is basically just equivalent to an ion drive in power and utility?

Even for somewhere like Mars is the required propellent for any ion drive going to be so much that it would make the EM Drive something to fret over? I can start to see using the EM Drive when we get to farther than the asteroid belt since the distances start to get fucking huge. But other than that is the EM Drive even that powerful?

 

[DrPizza]

What would be more difficult to design and maintain ?

A structure supporting a 1 bar cabin pressure in the vacuum of outerspace.
Or
A structure supporting the weight of thousands of pounds of pressure from the surrounding water at deep sea.

I would think that that cabin in outer space is more easier but to be honest i could be wrong.

But, I'm thinking, maybe some sort of vessels that float on the surface of the ocean and large enough to house a population of a small city. Maybe even make some of the vessels nuclear powered. If I could invent such a thing, I'd call it a "carrier fleet."

Again, it's orders of magnitude easier to live on that "75%" of Earth's surface that isn't considered habitable. Claims that you'd have to live below the surface for it to count seem rather disingenuous. It's like saying, "It's easier to live on the moon than in Yellowstone National Park, because if you dig down and live deep underground, magma."

 

[CZroe]

What I am not getting is where did the light speed bullshit come from?

This is basically just equivalent to an ion drive in power and utility?

Even for somewhere like Mars is the required propellent for any ion drive going to be so much that it would make the EM Drive something to fret over? I can start to see using the EM Drive when we get to farther than the asteroid belt since the distances start to get fucking huge. But other than that is the EM Drive even that powerful?

Probably the recent news about using some tool for measuring relativistic effects. They hear "relativity" and think "warp drive!" In reality, any two objects that move relative to eachother will have relative effects.

Getting to fractional sublight speed while carrying reaction fuel is not feasible. Using fusion for electricity with time for near infinite acceleration is much easier. It would take a long time to reach .9 light speed and a long time to slow back down. With the tech we're talking about we'd already be far past our closest likely destinations. As a result we would spend half of the transit time accelerating to some speed that is significantly slower than the speed of light and the other half would be spent slowing down with the vast majority being significantly slower than the fastest speed attained.

If we can get to .9999... light speed faster then relativistic effects would seemingly make the distance seem far closer than they are for the crew (time would move slower).

 

[Ruptga]

But, I'm thinking, maybe some sort of vessels that float on the surface of the ocean and large enough to house a population of a small city. Maybe even make some of the vessels nuclear powered. If I could invent such a thing, I'd call it a "carrier fleet."

Again, it's orders of magnitude easier to live on that "75%" of Earth's surface that isn't considered habitable. Claims that you'd have to live below the surface for it to count seem rather disingenuous. It's like saying, "It's easier to live on the moon than in Yellowstone National Park, because if you dig down and live deep underground, magma."

We could also develop continental shelf areas where the water pressure on the bottom is manageable, or we could tether neutrally bouyant cities/factories/whatever 100m from the surface in the middle of whichever ocean is convenient. All of those would be easier than living in space, where it costs about $2000 per kilo of material brought up from the surface. Near Earth, the more space is developed the more the lower orbits will get clogged with launch debris and old satellites. Away from Earth, radiation and micrometeors are serious problems. Compared to all that, building something that will stand up to life on or under shallow water is nothing.

 

[Paratus]

What I am not getting is where did the light speed bullshit come from?

This is basically just equivalent to an ion drive in power and utility?

Even for somewhere like Mars is the required propellent for any ion drive going to be so much that it would make the EM Drive something to fret over? I can start to see using the EM Drive when we get to farther than the asteroid belt since the distances start to get fucking huge. But other than that is the EM Drive even that powerful?

Probably the recent news about using some tool for measuring relativistic effects. They hear "relativity" and think "warp drive!" In reality, any two objects that move relative to eachother will have relative effects.

Getting to fractional sublight speed while carrying reaction fuel is not feasible. Using fusion for electricity with time for near infinite acceleration is much easier. It would take a long time to reach .9 light speed and a long time to slow back down. With the tech we're talking about we'd already be far past our closest likely destinations. As a result we would spend half of the transit time accelerating to some speed that is significantly slower than the speed of light and the other half would be spent slowing down with the vast majority being significantly slower than the fastest speed attained.

If we can get to .9999... light speed faster then relativistic effects would seemingly make the distance seem far closer than they are for the crew (time would move slower).

The reason light speed came up is because Eagleworks other project is Warp Drive. Let me quote myself from last year

So perhaps the greatest possible achievement in physics is going to be pulled off by a gang of scientists who can't master a microphone or work volume-normalizing software? Color me skeptical.

This was recorded at a conference not by the guys performing the work at NASA.

I assumed that the rings were the rotating 'simulated gravity environment,' like on every long-distance spaceship concept ever.

But no, it says they are part of the 'warp drive.' Followed by exactly zero science (in the article...not watching the video).

Kindly explain how this is not dumb scifi-nerd bullshit.

Sure

In the 90's a physicist named Miguel Alcubierre showed that it was possible using relativity to warp space in such a way that a ship could appear to travel faster than light but still be slower than light locally.

We know this warping is possible since the universe did it during its inflationary period.

It would not impart weird stresses on the ship and clocks on board would remain synchronized with clocks on the ground

The problem? It would require a Jupiter's sized mass of energy and negative pressure provided by "exotic matter" which doesn't appear to exist.

In 2000's White manipulated the equations and got the energy requirement down to a more manageable range. Something on the order of 10-100kgs.

With their work on the Quantum thruster it looks like they can make do without the exotic matter as well.

They current have an interferometer setup with their test article and have taken data. The data shows an extremely small signature and they have a lot of work to do to tease out if it's actually doing anything or if they need to reconfigure the experiment.

Anyway according to the new article they used the interferometer on the new device based off the EM thruster and got a measurable signal......

Whether it's actually warping space remains to be verified.

 

[norseamd]

We could also develop continental shelf areas where the water pressure on the bottom is manageable, or we could tether neutrally bouyant cities/factories/whatever 100m from the surface in the middle of whichever ocean is convenient. All of those would be easier than living in space, where it costs about $2000 per kilo of material brought up from the surface. Near Earth, the more space is developed the more the lower orbits will get clogged with launch debris and old satellites. Away from Earth, radiation and micrometeors are serious problems. Compared to all that, building something that will stand up to life on or under shallow water is nothing.

Building colonies in the deep sea is not exactly worth it right now so when I talk about ocean colonization I am usually referring to colonizing the Continental Shelves.

That said the deep sea does have use for resource prospecting and exploitation.

 

[HeXen]

Area 51 gave it to NASA.

 

[CZroe]

The reason light speed came up is because Eagleworks other project is Warp Drive. Let me quote myself from last year



Anyway according to the new article they used the interferometer on the new device based off the EM thruster and got a measurable signal......

Whether it's actually warping space remains to be verified.

I am aware, but the news report only mentioned the EM drive and specifically said that it could allow for faster than light travel. I listened to see if they even mentioned the interferometer, the Q-drive, or any other project, and they did not. I even played it back again (DVR). There was no stated reasoning what-so-ever for their assertion that the EM drive could allow for FTL travel.

 

[Fritzo]

What I am not getting is where did the light speed bullshit come from?

This is basically just equivalent to an ion drive in power and utility?

Even for somewhere like Mars is the required propellent for any ion drive going to be so much that it would make the EM Drive something to fret over? I can start to see using the EM Drive when we get to farther than the asteroid belt since the distances start to get fucking huge. But other than that is the EM Drive even that powerful?

An ion drive requires fuel and shoots charged particles (ions) for thrust. The EM drive doesn't require fuel and emits electromagnetic waves to bounce off of virtual particles to create thrust.

 

[Fritzo]

I am aware, but the news report only mentioned the EM drive and specifically said that it could allow for faster than light travel. I listened to see if they even mentioned the interferometer, the Q-drive, or any other project, and they did not. I even played it back again (DVR). There was no stated reasoning what-so-ever for their assertion that the EM drive could allow for FTL travel.

I didn't see the article you saw, but to clarify- the EM drive COULD lead to an FTL drive IF it is being shown to warp space.

So, it's at a point where it "might" be a clue towards a warp drive. The EM drive is more like the impulse engines on the Enterprise.

 

[Fritzo]

Latest news on this BTW:

Point:
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...-real-nasa-testing-lives-to-fight-another-day

Counterpoint:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/ethansiegel/2015/05/04/no-nasa-did-not-accidentally-invent-warp-drive/

 

[Ichinisan]

Latest news on this BTW:

Point:
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...-real-nasa-testing-lives-to-fight-another-day

Counterpoint:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/ethansiegel/2015/05/04/no-nasa-did-not-accidentally-invent-warp-drive/

Just started on the first article. Strange that it's already being referred to as "fuel-free." It requires fuel to generate electricity. It does not require propellant. So "propellant-free" would be more accurate than "fuel-free," I suppose.

Initially, we'd probably build one powered by nuclear fission. Perhaps, in the future, maybe nuclear fusion.

Anyway, the fusion drive is already available commercially.

[edit]
Well, I guess a satellite staying within the inner solar system could power from the sun and wouldn't need fuel to maintain a stable orbit, but that's not as exciting as the prospect of long-distance space travel. That would depend on an on-board power source more and more as it travels away from the sun.

 

[Paratus]

I didn't see the article you saw, but to clarify- the EM drive COULD lead to an FTL drive IF it is being shown to warp space.

So, it's at a point where it "might" be a clue towards a warp drive. The EM drive is more like the impulse engines on the Enterprise.

My understanding (speaking only for myself) of the link between the EM drive and the warp field is as follows:

The Alcubierre Warp field as derived from relativity requires space to be both stretched and compressed. Normal matter takes care of one these. Exotic matter takes care of the other.

Exotic matter as near as anyone can tell doesn't actually exist. Exotic matter is NOT anti-matter. Although I should mention last I read no one has ever actually observed whether an anti-hydrogen atom actually falls in a gravitational field. Theory says it should.

What the Eagle works guys are hypothesizing is that the EM drive is doing something to the quantum vacuum and one of the effects of that thing is that it mimics the effect of exotic matter the Alcubierre warp field needs.

So they used a laser interferometer with one leg of the laser passing through the device to measure any warping of space. Last year they may or may not have gotten a signal. I believe they upgraded the equipment and tried again and got a defined signal at least according to a forum post by one of the researchers on NasaSpaceflight. I leave it to the reader to make of that what it's worth.

About the only thing I take from this is testing continues and so far they have not been able to conclusively disprove the hypothesis. More testing should continue.

 

[Phoenix86]

The "more resting should continue" part is 100% right, the nice thing about needing more testing after testing is you didn't show a negative result. As you progress you go from it being a silly fraudulent device to new science.

If it was blatant fraud it'd have been noticed by now. That doesn't mean it'll work but it's a very good step in the right direction.

 

[Ichinisan]

This will be nothing without Rossi's eCat to power the drive.

 

[Paratus]

This will be nothing without Rossi's eCat to power the drive.

I'll settle for Lockheed Martin Skunk Works Compact Fusion Reactor.

Failing that I'd settle for a lighter version of a modular fission reactor

 

[Fritzo]

My understanding (speaking only for myself) of the link between the EM drive and the warp field is as follows:

The Alcubierre Warp field as derived from relativity requires space to be both stretched and compressed. Normal matter takes care of one these. Exotic matter takes care of the other.

Exotic matter as near as anyone can tell doesn't actually exist. Exotic matter is NOT anti-matter. Although I should mention last I read no one has ever actually observed whether an anti-hydrogen atom actually falls in a gravitational field. Theory says it should.

What the Eagle works guys are hypothesizing is that the EM drive is doing something to the quantum vacuum and one of the effects of that thing is that it mimics the effect of exotic matter the Alcubierre warp field needs.

So they used a laser interferometer with one leg of the laser passing through the device to measure any warping of space. Last year they may or may not have gotten a signal. I believe they upgraded the equipment and tried again and got a defined signal at least according to a forum post by one of the researchers on NasaSpaceflight. I leave it to the reader to make of that what it's worth.

About the only thing I take from this is testing continues and so far they have not been able to conclusively disprove the hypothesis. More testing should continue.

Exotic matter simply means matter with "exotic properties different from normal matter". In the case of an Alcubierre drive, matter with negative mass would be required, which has never been observed but there is no rule against it existing. We've directly observed matter exerting negative pressure via the Casimir effect, and that's well documented, but matter with a negative mass has yet to be discovered. The reason it's still being sought after is physicists have found over the decades "if there is no rule making something impossible, it most likely exists."

If we ever do find it, it will be a turning point for humanity. Not only would warp drives be possible, but antigravity propulsion would be possible, making things like land speeders from Star Wars a reality, and everyone could finally have those jetpacks they've been clamoring for

 

[Jeff7]

I'll settle for Lockheed Martin Skunk Works Compact Fusion Reactor.

Oh god...they have an infestation of marketing people, too.

Energy created through fusion is 3-4 times more powerful than the energy released by fission.

:hmm:

I know what they're trying to say, but.....yeah, that's not really right.

"But see, this energy is more energetic energy, because it was fusioned. Understand?"

Failing that I'd settle for a lighter version of a modular fission reactor

Some day, Wikipedia will be able to figure out that I'm not using a mobile device, and automatically show me the suitable version. Grr.

 

[Paratus]

Oh god...they have an infestation of marketing people, too.


:hmm:

I know what they're trying to say, but.....yeah, that's not really right.

"But see, this energy is more energetic energy, because it was fusioned. Understand?"




Some day, Wikipedia will be able to figure out that I'm not using a mobile device, and automatically show me the suitable version. Grr.

I'd say a joule of fusion energy is more energetic than a joule of fission energy by at least 1^4 power! :sneaky:

 

[Paratus]

Exotic matter simply means matter with "exotic properties different from normal matter". In the case of an Alcubierre drive, matter with negative mass would be required, which has never been observed but there is no rule against it existing. We've directly observed matter exerting negative pressure via the Casimir effect, and that's well documented, but matter with a negative mass has yet to be discovered. The reason it's still being sought after is physicists have found over the decades "if there is no rule making something impossible, it most likely exists."

If we ever do find it, it will be a turning point for humanity. Not only would warp drives be possible, but antigravity propulsion would be possible, making things like land speeders from Star Wars a reality, and everyone could finally have those jetpacks they've been clamoring for

Well the Standard Model doesn't really have a place for exotic matter as far as I know. It does for normal baryonic matter and antimatter. I could be wrong, I'm an engineer not a physicist damnit!

On the Casmir effect becareful trying to describe it as a "negative " pressure. What the effect appears as is a pressure on two flat plates in a vacuum a very small distance apart. The pressure increases the closer together they are.

Classically I don't think there's an explanation. Via quantum mechanics I've heard it described as a function of the uncertainty principle preventing some wavlengths of virtual particles from appearing between the plates while they can on the outside causing an imbalanced force that appears as a pressure on the plates. I've also heard it described as having to do with Van der Wales force.

Either way it's not exactly the effect they think the EM drive is using as I believe the Casmir force is always balanced. I think they are hoping it biases the quantum vacuum in some way and that bias allows the thrust effect but also provides the warping effect.

I do wonder if they could use Casmir plates in then"wake" of an EM drive to detect changes in the quantum vacuum. It would seem that if the pressure felt by the plates changes when the EM drive is functioning that that would be a pretty strong indication something was going on with the quantum vacuum.

Anyway all I'm saying is nobody currently understands what's going on so finding the right analogies is probably futile right now, assuming it's not experimental error.

 

[Fritzo]

Well the Standard Model doesn't really have a place for exotic matter as far as I know. It does for normal baryonic matter and antimatter. I could be wrong, I'm an engineer not a physicist damnit!

On the Casmir effect becareful trying to describe it as a "negative " pressure. What the effect appears as is a pressure on two flat plates in a vacuum a very small distance apart. The pressure increases the closer together they are.

Classically I don't think there's an explanation. Via quantum mechanics I've heard it described as a function of the uncertainty principle preventing some wavlengths of virtual particles from appearing between the plates while they can on the outside causing an imbalanced force that appears as a pressure on the plates. I've also heard it described as having to do with Van der Wales force.

Either way it's not exactly the effect they think the EM drive is using as I believe the Casmir force is always balanced. I think they are hoping it biases the quantum vacuum in some way and that bias allows the thrust effect but also provides the warping effect.

I do wonder if they could use Casmir plates in then"wake" of an EM drive to detect changes in the quantum vacuum. It would seem that if the pressure felt by the plates changes when the EM drive is functioning that that would be a pretty strong indication something was going on with the quantum vacuum.

Anyway all I'm saying is nobody currently understands what's going on so finding the right analogies is probably futile right now, assuming it's not experimental error.

I hate to say it, but I'm leaning towards an error in the measuring equipment right now. The lab that's doing this is only funded with a $50000 grant. How exact can their equipment be?