Whoa - Hobbit at 48 fps

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blinblue

Senior member
Jul 7, 2006
889
0
76
This



I do not understand why anything would be filmed at less then 32 fps anyway? If someone can go to wal-mart and get a camera that films at 32, fps, why shouldnt movies be filmed that way?

Personally, I am wondering why movies are not filmed at 128, or at least 64 fps?

Actually, there are people who would prefer to film in 24 fps vs a higher rate because it looks more cinematic. If you look at some older discussions on DSLRs that can record video, one of the most asked for features is 24 fps recording option (30 fps being what was given). Lots of consumer and digital devices record at 30 fps, and the difference is noticeable and people will argue that the 24 fps looks more cinematic.


Of course, personally, give me more FPS, you can always chop out frames later if you want :)
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
IMO until we can digitally shoot at something at a resolution equal to that of films....we shouldn't

Yep. Resolution is a tricky thing, because you could technically argue a specific digital resolution (that is not readily available on sensors at the moment) may match up with that film can offer... it's far more challenging than that.
Pixels do not perfectly match up with crystal density on film, as crystals also vary in size, potential, and the chemical reactions in general lead to a far more accurate representation of natural light (imho).

Film has a look that I still believe is superior to any digital camera out there.
However, I do greatly support the work of those mages- err... engineers who are making the overall photographic potential of the sensors and recording equipment become that much better.
RED is doing a phenomenal job with their cameras.

However, I must say... I am not going to enjoy getting used to these faster refresh rates for film.
I am forever going to hate it, and there's just no way I can change my attitude on this matter. :p

24fps for film feels perfectly fluid, and does a damn good job helping with the overall movie experience.
The total motion blur, when put into motion, feels right to my eyes. You cannot have an entire scene in crisp detail, we have a a very narrow FOV that is in perfect detail.
Having an entire scene rendered perfectly sharp and crisp seems to alien, and artificial. Yes, the entire movie experience in of itself is entirely artificial, but the whole point is that of the lengths we go to as a culture to make cinema feel more real, and to me when it feels slightly more artificial, it's a step in the wrong direction.

Of course, there are two problems with this argument of mine:
1) I have simply become accustomed to 24fps in cinema productions, and seeing anything else not only feels alien, but it also feels cheap and that exaggerates the feeling of artificiality, because in general, the higher the framerate, the cheaper said production tends to be. Home video is 60fps most often, as are many budget productions... broadcast television is basically 30fps. I recognize this, and is part of the reason I can more easily accept the fact that this higher-framerate future is simply inevitable.
In video games and anything similar, I do demand higher framerate, but with video, I hardly pay attention except to make sure everything syncs up correctly.
2) Now having started to type this, I see it's largely an extension of the first point.
With time, seeing more hollywood productions at a higher framerate, my eyes will simply expect the things I see, and thus grow accustomed to it. By that time, I hope I'll also no longer view it as seeming cheaper because of it.

Relatedly, I also might not have any of the problems I have discussed.
Will video shot at 120fps feel exactly like it does when displayed on a 120hz television and displayed at that same rate? As in, watching a regular movie converted on a 120hz TV. It feels wrong, it's too damn sharp and crisp. There's no life to the movement, even the way people move look wrong and make the acting look worse. Yes, my eyes could become used to that I guess... but it removes the subtlety, and is forcing our eyes to simply accept what it seen, versus letting our eyes and brain do a little work like they do with all visuals. You see a person moving fast and the motion looks blurry, yes? You don't see motion in real life in perfect smoothness, but our brain kind of tells us we do. It's a weird dance, but I cannot see how motion on a 120hz tv looks like reality. It looks badly choreographed imho, not smooth and naturally flowing. Again, my eyes and brain may simply be used to one thing and stubbornly refusing to accept the new thing... I guess in time we'll find out.

That's the thing I fear the most, because eventually we will likely see 120hz in the cinema. Maybe not for a long time, but I think it'll be a natural progression as we eventually completely abandon the film medium. It is inevitable sadly. I don't want it to, because the tonal properties and overall feel has not been surpassed thus far, but I just don't see it standing the test of time against the progression of technology. Superior and more enjoyable as a format, but progress is double-edged like that.
 

blinblue

Senior member
Jul 7, 2006
889
0
76
chopping frames = wasted money

Well if you are already filming in 48 fps, and you got people complaining about how it doesn't look "right", just get rid of half the frames, and there you go!

You could also use the frames you got rid of and sell the "alternate" version for extra $$$

(The Hobbit - The Other Frames - Extended Version)
 

Zeze

Lifer
Mar 4, 2011
11,395
1,189
126
24fps for film feels perfectly fluid, and does a damn good job helping with the overall movie experience.

No it doesn't, even as a noob teenager, I wondered why I couldn't make out shit when camera does a simple panning from left to right or vice versa in movies. The whole thing is just a blur.

Also, yes the master film must have highest quality & resolution, but one time I watched a movie twice, thanks to friends. One in conventional reel & another in DLP.

Holy CRAP reel looked like UTTER shit. No way it had better quality than the DLP equivalent.

What's the resolution of commercial cinema DLP anyway? Is it only 1080p?
 
Last edited:

Liet

Golden Member
Jun 9, 2001
1,529
0
0
That fucking butcher Peter Jackson is going to butcher the Hobbit just like he butchered LotR.
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,444
5,852
146
Yep. Resolution is a tricky thing, because you could technically argue a specific digital resolution (that is not readily available on sensors at the moment) may match up with that film can offer... it's far more challenging than that.
Pixels do not perfectly match up with crystal density on film, as crystals also vary in size, potential, and the chemical reactions in general lead to a far more accurate representation of natural light (imho).

Film has a look that I still believe is superior to any digital camera out there.
However, I do greatly support the work of those mages- err... engineers who are making the overall photographic potential of the sensors and recording equipment become that much better.
RED is doing a phenomenal job with their cameras.

However, I must say... I am not going to enjoy getting used to these faster refresh rates for film.
I am forever going to hate it, and there's just no way I can change my attitude on this matter. :p

24fps for film feels perfectly fluid, and does a damn good job helping with the overall movie experience.
The total motion blur, when put into motion, feels right to my eyes. You cannot have an entire scene in crisp detail, we have a a very narrow FOV that is in perfect detail.
Having an entire scene rendered perfectly sharp and crisp seems to alien, and artificial. Yes, the entire movie experience in of itself is entirely artificial, but the whole point is that of the lengths we go to as a culture to make cinema feel more real, and to me when it feels slightly more artificial, it's a step in the wrong direction.

Of course, there are two problems with this argument of mine:
1) I have simply become accustomed to 24fps in cinema productions, and seeing anything else not only feels alien, but it also feels cheap and that exaggerates the feeling of artificiality, because in general, the higher the framerate, the cheaper said production tends to be. Home video is 60fps most often, as are many budget productions... broadcast television is basically 30fps. I recognize this, and is part of the reason I can more easily accept the fact that this higher-framerate future is simply inevitable.
In video games and anything similar, I do demand higher framerate, but with video, I hardly pay attention except to make sure everything syncs up correctly.
2) Now having started to type this, I see it's largely an extension of the first point.
With time, seeing more hollywood productions at a higher framerate, my eyes will simply expect the things I see, and thus grow accustomed to it. By that time, I hope I'll also no longer view it as seeming cheaper because of it.

Relatedly, I also might not have any of the problems I have discussed.
Will video shot at 120fps feel exactly like it does when displayed on a 120hz television and displayed at that same rate? As in, watching a regular movie converted on a 120hz TV. It feels wrong, it's too damn sharp and crisp. There's no life to the movement, even the way people move look wrong and make the acting look worse. Yes, my eyes could become used to that I guess... but it removes the subtlety, and is forcing our eyes to simply accept what it seen, versus letting our eyes and brain do a little work like they do with all visuals. You see a person moving fast and the motion looks blurry, yes? You don't see motion in real life in perfect smoothness, but our brain kind of tells us we do. It's a weird dance, but I cannot see how motion on a 120hz tv looks like reality. It looks badly choreographed imho, not smooth and naturally flowing. Again, my eyes and brain may simply be used to one thing and stubbornly refusing to accept the new thing... I guess in time we'll find out.

That's the thing I fear the most, because eventually we will likely see 120hz in the cinema. Maybe not for a long time, but I think it'll be a natural progression as we eventually completely abandon the film medium. It is inevitable sadly. I don't want it to, because the tonal properties and overall feel has not been surpassed thus far, but I just don't see it standing the test of time against the progression of technology. Superior and more enjoyable as a format, but progress is double-edged like that.

Natively shot 120fps should be a lot better than the interpolated mess you get now with TVs. You will eventually get used to it, although it will take a while and expect there to be "growing pains" (there's people that get nauseous over this stuff).

Likewise with 3D, it will take time for us to adjust to it, which is why, right now it causes us so much eyestrain and other problems (although a lot of that is flaws with current methods/technology). Eventually it should get to a point where it looks very natural.

I don't think it makes any sense to write off either one, although I can understand people not liking them now as the implementations just is not that good yet.

Incidentally, gaming is actually probably the only place you can really get a feel for how the extra framerates and 3D can be.

Also keep in mind, 120fps will give directors even more freedom of how to manage scenes, as they can then use a lot of different framerates to give scenes different feel. They could shoot a slow scene at low framerates to emphasize it, and then action scenes can go full framerate.
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,444
5,852
146
I believe 2K or 4K, so quite a bit higher than 1080p

I believe film is estimated to be ~8K in detail (might've actually been lower, 8K might be the estimated human eyesight detail threshold).

Its why there's quite a few older films that were done well on high quality film look amazing on Blu-Ray, they even put most modern films to shame in visual fidelity.

A lot of theaters did not keep up their film projectors well, which is why they can look like complete crap. Also, focus is a big issue as well, and I believe most digital theater projectors can autofocus. There was a theater that I used to go to where it was like they could never get the film focused properly and it gave me a headache. They switched to digital and it was so much better for that reason alone.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
51,741
7,305
136
I'm very interested to see how this actually looks IRL. I absolutely loathe the new TV's (120hz/240hz/smooth motion/whatever) because it makes movies look like they were shot on a home video camera instead of a film camera. But if Peter Jackson and James Cameron say that 48 FPS etc. looks good...there might be something to it! I'll withhold judgement until I actually see footage.
 

Bignate603

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
13,897
1
0
I personally notice the 24 FPS during movies with fast motion. It drives me nuts in action movies.
 

Bignate603

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
13,897
1
0
I'm very interested to see how this actually looks IRL. I absolutely loathe the new TV's (120hz/240hz/smooth motion/whatever) because it makes movies look like they were shot on a home video camera instead of a film camera. But if Peter Jackson and James Cameron say that 48 FPS etc. looks good...there might be something to it! I'll withhold judgement until I actually see footage.

I find it hilarious how people find high frame rate stuff "cheap" looking because its too smooth. Oh no! The image looks too realistic! Let me throw in some jerkiness so people think it looks classy!
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
Yeah... Hell, even going from 60 hz to 75 hz on my LCD is like night and day, the image is so much easier on the eyes, and everything becomes smoother

Im really excited for this, its about time they moved on from such an outdated frame rate

well no, because each time the frame is actually projected about 2 to 3 times in succession even at 24fps.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movie_projector#Film_gate_and_single_image

further more film is not scanline or interlaced. the whole screen is projected at once, it has nothing to do with the problems of crt, it is more like lcd, and almost no one can see a 60hz lcd flicker.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
51,741
7,305
136
I find it hilarious how people find high frame rate stuff "cheap" looking because its too smooth. Oh no! The image looks too realistic! Let me throw in some jerkiness so people think it looks classy!

I just don't like my movies looking like soap operas. CSI on one of new 120Hz-style TV's looks like a homemade COPS episode to me. Personally I think it looks terrible. Part of the appeal of film to me is that it doesn't look like real life.

As for your comment on fast-motion jerkiness, I agree. Some filmmakers film at higher FPS and then conform it to 24fps to get rid of the jerkiness. I personally don't like the jerky look too much. One of the downsides of filming at native 24fps.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
51,741
7,305
136
I believe film is estimated to be ~8K in detail (might've actually been lower, 8K might be the estimated human eyesight detail threshold).

Its why there's quite a few older films that were done well on high quality film look amazing on Blu-Ray, they even put most modern films to shame in visual fidelity.

A lot of theaters did not keep up their film projectors well, which is why they can look like complete crap. Also, focus is a big issue as well, and I believe most digital theater projectors can autofocus. There was a theater that I used to go to where it was like they could never get the film focused properly and it gave me a headache. They switched to digital and it was so much better for that reason alone.

I read somewhere that IMAX 70mm is equivalent to 10K. Gonna need a few more terabytes to process those films :awe:

Yeah, the first digitally-projected film I ever saw was Disney's Cars. Holy cow was the image clear. None of those film jumps or flickers or blips or spots. Hard to go back to the cheap theater after that :D
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
FB page forgot to mention that Hobbit will be filmed in 5K (5,120 × 2,700) too. :awe:

http://screenrant.com/the-hobbit-3d-cameras-ian-mckellen-sandy-89710/

RED-EPIC-S35-5K-Cine-configuration-600x427.jpg


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Digital_Cinema_Camera_Company

http://www.freshdv.com/2008/05/demystifying-digital-camera-specs-part1.html
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
51,741
7,305
136
In todays digital age, why are they using physical film?

Wasn't there are recent movie that was filmed in 100% digital format, with no old fashioned film?

Mostly due to (1) existing infrastructure, (2) existing trained operators, and (3) perception that film is better than digital. For the last 100 years, everything has been shot on film. There's lots of hardware and expertise in place. Going digital requires a new hardware investment and new training and new types of operators (digital imaging technicians, data wranglers, etc.). On the plus side, a new 5K-resolution RED EPIC camera is less than $60,000 new and can use pretty much any standard cinematography lens (plus a bunch of Canon/Nikon photo lenses), so it's much cheaper to get into than film.

Plus, the 4K RED ONE camera was only released in 2007, so digital technology on a film-resolution scale is pretty new stuff (there's a few other digital cinema cameras available as well, but many are only 1080p). Digitally-shot films look just as good as film - if done right. You still need to light properly, color grade, etc. You might be surprised at what was shot on a digital cinema camera. Here's a short list of recent films shot on the RED camera:

The Social Network
Gamer
Wanted
The Lovely Bones
G.I. Joe: The Rise of Cobra
The Girlfriend Experience
District 9
The Informant
Skyline
Night at the Museum: Battle of the Smithsonian
Knowing
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
51,741
7,305
136
He butchered a relatively boring read into three very watchable films.

Hah, agreed. I tried to trudge through the books in middle school. I made it all the way to the middle of the last one and just...couldn't...finish :D

Although...I wouldn't complain if someone released something like "The Phantom Edit" (a la no Jar Jar Binks) - like a 2-1/2 hour epic edit of all 3 LOTR movies :awe: :thumbsup:
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
Mostly due to (1) existing infrastructure, (2) existing trained operators, and (3) perception that film is better than digital. For the last 100 years, everything has been shot on film. There's lots of hardware and expertise in place. Going digital requires a new hardware investment and new training and new types of operators (digital imaging technicians, data wranglers, etc.). On the plus side, a new 5K-resolution RED EPIC camera is less than $60,000 new and can use pretty much any standard cinematography lens (plus a bunch of Canon/Nikon photo lenses), so it's much cheaper to get into than film.

Plus, the 4K RED ONE camera was only released in 2007, so digital technology on a film-resolution scale is pretty new stuff (there's a few other digital cinema cameras available as well, but many are only 1080p). Digitally-shot films look just as good as film - if done right. You still need to light properly, color grade, etc. You might be surprised at what was shot on a digital cinema camera. Here's a short list of recent films shot on the RED camera:

The Social Network
Gamer
Wanted
The Lovely Bones
G.I. Joe: The Rise of Cobra
The Girlfriend Experience
District 9
The Informant
Skyline
Night at the Museum: Battle of the Smithsonian
Knowing

well more to the point, until recently they were using sh*tty cameras that couldn't do the job and looked like video. films like collateral, public enemies with jonny depp looked like crap because of their sub par digital cameras...public enemies looked downright like a high school production.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
i can't add anything to this conversation. I just want to say i love these threads.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
Hah, agreed. I tried to trudge through the books in middle school. I made it all the way to the middle of the last one and just...couldn't...finish :D

Although...I wouldn't complain if someone released something like "The Phantom Edit" (a la no Jar Jar Binks) - like a 2-1/2 hour epic edit of all 3 LOTR movies :awe: :thumbsup:

yeah i read them in school. they were ...kinda slow.

the movies i enjoyed. come to think of it i tried to read them when i was laid up after surgery a few years ago. i had to force myself to read them all.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
51,741
7,305
136
well more to the point, until recently they were using sh*tty cameras that couldn't do the job and looked like video. films like collateral, public enemies with jonny depp looked like crap because of their sub par digital cameras...public enemies looked downright like a high school production.

Yeah, I think the 4K+ thing is a big deal because of that, especially with the amount of VFX that goes into films these days. Plus, we're probably around the corner from 2K if not 4K widespread projecting at theaters and a few years away from it at home, so they're going to have to upscale anything from 1080p up to 2K and beyond - you're ahead of the game if you're shooting at 4K or better already.

FWIW, RED just announced a 6K sensor at NAB, coming out next year :awe: