WHOA: Abbas says the new coalition government will recognize Israel

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: GuitarDaddy

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
There is no apologizing for terrorism, but punishing the whole nation regardless of why many of them voted for Hamas and along with the many who didn't is downright abhorrent as well.

This notion that the poor people who don't support/believe in terrorism are being unfairly punished is some sympathetic BS. It is true but irrelavent, guilt by association is the law of the world.

I personaly dissagre with the terrorists who argue that.

Originally posted by: dna

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
I live in this world where might doesn't make right no matter how much others try to pretend it does.

Nobody said it did, but you gotta keep it in perspective, and adjust demands.

Israel continues to say it does by action in the course of continuing to expropriate land.

Originally posted by: dna

We wouldn't have this mess if the Zionist didn't come from Europe to colonize the land back in 1885, but all those dates have passed and we need to come to a workable solution for both parties now.

Colonize -- oh, so that's what it is when people come and buy land.... :roll:

In some cases, perhaps the essay Ze'ev Jabotinsky wrote back in 1923 on the subject of colonizing Palestine will help you comprehend my usage of the term, "The Iron Wall".

Originally posted by: dna
Let's see what King Abdullah wrote:

It is made quite clear to all, both by the map drawn up by the Simpson Commission and by another compiled by the Peel Commission, that the Arabs are as prodigal in selling their land as they are in useless wailing and weeping.

Are you familiar with the context of that quote? Are you familiar with a letter his father wrote to the American people decades before, "As the Arabs see the Jews"?

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
You see where the problem is? Some Arabs live in a parallel universe where they set the fact as they want. I mean, not recognizing Israel or the Moon is pretty much the same. Until the Palestinians seek for a way to coexist instead of the destruction of Israel, there will be tough times. Sad, but true.

You have that backwards, the Palestinians can't coexist as long as the Zionists continue taking their land. To claim otherwise is like arguing the Native Americans didn't want to coexist 'Manifest Destiny-ists'.

 

[Aisengard]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
You see where the problem is? Some Arabs live in a parallel universe where they set the fact as they want. I mean, not recognizing Israel or the Moon is pretty much the same. Until the Palestinians seek for a way to coexist instead of the destruction of Israel, there will be tough times. Sad, but true.

You have that backwards, the Palestinians can't coexist as long as the Zionists continue taking their land. To claim otherwise is like arguing the Native Americans didn't want to coexist 'Manifest Destiny-ists'.

He did it guys! He finally did it! He compared Israel to 1800s America.

Snowman, now that we know what you think, your argument is over. Come back when you realize what's really going on over in the Middle East.

I bet you think those tricky, dirty Jews paid the poor, clueless Arabs in beads and "jew gold".

You are a joke.

 

[kylebisme]

I didn't say anything about beads, and what the hell do you mean by "jew gold"? I'm not joking though, you can't rightly coexist with people as you are running them off their land, be it in the Middle East or in the Americas. Besides, many British considered the colonization of the Americas as them founding "New Israel" and justified their conquests over the Natives with biblical quotes referring to Canaanites. Here is a bit of a summery on the subject which might help put the comparison in perspective, "Native Americans and John Wesley".

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
In some cases, perhaps the essay Ze'ev Jabotinsky wrote back in 1923 on the subject of colonizing Palestine will help you comprehend my usage of the term, "The Iron Wall".

Well, it didn't, so you'll have to do a better job explaining, especially since I doubt you understand the meaning of the verb "colonize", since it seems rather difficult to have a colony without a parent nation:
Colony: a group of people who leave their native country to form in a new land a settlement subject to, or connected with, the parent nation..

Besides, you forget that the Jews lived next to the Arabs, and traded with them, and worked with them, so you can hardly claim they went in and created an isolated, independent society (util the arabs went cookoo and started rioting).

Are you familiar with the context of that quote? Are you familiar with a letter his father wrote to the American people decades before, "As the Arabs see the Jews"?

Isn't it obvious? They are good at bitching and complaining -- which we witness even now -- yet they sold land and were lavishly compensated.

I read up to a third of that letter, and had enough for now; all I could see is the usual "poor Arabs" routine. Let's not ignore that the influx of Jews also brought with it capital, as well as know-how that the population lacked -- a side effect of being under the Ottomans rule, I presume.

You'll have to do better than that to show that the Evil Zionists went in, and kicked people off their land.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: dna

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
In some cases, perhaps the essay Ze'ev Jabotinsky wrote back in 1923 on the subject of colonizing Palestine will help you comprehend my usage of the term, "The Iron Wall".

Well, it didn't, so you'll have...

If what I linked to and see that Jabotinsky talks specificly about colonise israel. and if you read the rest of King Abdullah's letter you lean a bit about some of the voilent means by which that was accomplished. And yes, Palestinians were ran of their land.

*fixed link*

 

[imported_dna]

That essay is a pragmatical view of the world, and not some sort of plan to colonize, which you can't, since there is no "home nation" that the "colonizers" would be answering to.

If you say Abdullah said anything about the "means", why don't you cut & paste the paragraph, since I don't feel like reading the entire letter, especially given the way it stated.

Oh, and do me a favor, don't start with the sad story of being forced out, since you have yet to address the issue of the Arab League calling on the residents to leave -- there's plenty threads where you ignored me, and I expect the same now.

Sheesh... showing maps of what was the situation before the Arabs started the war in 1948, and then complaining about the outcome -- that's just being a sore loser. Now they go running to the UN, and Amnesty, and cry about human rights, and all that, while in 1948, if they had their way, they would've slaughtered all the Jews.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Arafat was given a sick joke.

Many could say you are also.......

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: forfor

Originally posted by: Aisengard

Originally posted by: conjur
And where is the movement in Israel to recognize Palestine? It's not a one-sided debate, people.

Uhm. Israel would very much like to, but since technically Palestine isn't a STATE, they can't very well recognize it can they?

If you want to criticize Israel for not recognizing some mythical state of Palestine, you should first criticize the entire world, who if you ask them about the state of Palestine, they'd reply "The State of what now?"

There is no apologizing for terrorism, but punishing the whole nation regardless of why many of them voted for Hamas and along with the many who didn't is downright abhorrent as well.

Palestine is recognized as a state by numerous nations, just go to Middle East, Southeast Asia & Pacific, northern Africa, etc. Just because we, the U.S., don't recognize it doesn't mean its not a state. In fact, Palestine is much more of a state than some African nations that are controlled only by warlords.

If Hamas laid down its arms and recognized Israel, there would be peace and prosperity in the region. If Israel laid down its arms there would be no Israel, and the entire area would be one big refugee camp.

It's the truth, and pretty much unarguable

So typical of America today. We have an opinion, and its *pretty much unarguable*. We're right, you're wrong. Just like our president says...

Matt Lauer: The head of Amnesty International has blasted your administration for its engagement in torture. Do you have any counter-arguments?

George W. Bush: Well, I don't agree with him.

BRILLIANT DEFENSE!

YES -- it truly was brilliant........wtf is Amnesty international anyways......
Amnesty International does not warrant a reqaction from our president........rofl

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: dna

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
In some cases, perhaps the essay Ze'ev Jabotinsky wrote back in 1923 on the subject of colonizing Palestine will help you comprehend my usage of the term, "The Iron Wall".

Well, it didn't, so you'll have...

If what I linked to and see that Jabotinsky talks specificly about colonise israel. and if you read the rest of King Abdullah's letter you lean a bit about some of the voilent means by which that was accomplished. And yes, [l=Palestinians were ran of their land]http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story573.html][/url].

I want some of what you are smoking.....

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
I didn't say anything about beads, and what the hell do you mean by "jew gold"? I'm not joking though, you can't rightly coexist with people as you are running them off their land, be it in the Middle East or in the Americas. Besides, many British considered the colonization of the Americas as them founding "New Israel" and justified their conquests over the Natives with biblical quotes referring to Canaanites. Here is a bit of a summery on the subject which might help put the comparison in perspective, "Native Americans and John Wesley".

So, what happend in Gaza strip? Did Israel evacuate the annexed land or not? Before begnning an argument, I think we should make the facts clear. Then we can debate on whether some side is right or not.

 

[kylebisme]

Israel tore down their settlements in the Gaza Strip and widthrew to it boarders, and at the same time Israel contenue to take more land in the West Bank.

 

[imported_dna]

Well, somebody has to put that land to use, seeing as how the Palestinians are busy rioting after the Pope's remark,... :roll:

 

[kylebisme]

Palestinian Muslim and Christians leaders both criticized the Pope's sectarian bigotry for what it was, and in response they emphasized mutual respect and history of coexistence between their faiths. Yet you gloss right over that reality and absurdly blame actions of a few misguided individuals in your maniacal attempts to justify Israel's continuing colonization of Palestine. :disgust:

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Israel tore down their settlements in the Gaza Strip and widthrew to it boarders, and at the same time Israel contenue to take more land in the West Bank.

It did not take "more land", simply maintained the Status Quo.
But we agree that Israel withdrew from Gaza strip. What did you personally expect the Palestinians to do after such act on Israel's part?

Because what they did is keeping terror running stronger than ever, shooting rockets from their newly acquired area into Israel, and tearing down everything Israel left behind for their own good (like greenhouses). The evacuated settlements turned into training grounds for militants.
Do you think that with such a record Israel should continue giving land to the Palestinians?

Furthermore, the recent Israeli goverment, just as the one before it, was elected on the grounds of giving back lands to the Palestinians. I would be very surprised to see another goverment elected on the same basis in the next few years. This move backfired on Israel in a way very similar to Oslo process.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Israel tore down their settlements in the Gaza Strip and widthrew to it boarders, and at the same time Israel contenue to take more land in the West Bank.

It did not take "more land", simply maintained the Status Quo.

No, Israel did take more land, and Israel is still talking more land as well. You can't have a rational position on this situation until you come to accept these facts.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Israel tore down their settlements in the Gaza Strip and widthrew to it boarders, and at the same time Israel contenue to take more land in the West Bank.

It did not take "more land", simply maintained the Status Quo.

No, Israel did take more land, and Israel is still talking more land as well. You can't have a rational position on this situation until you come to accept these facts.

Do you have any objective reports showing it's so?
And more importantly, what about the rest of my claims? I mean, if the situation in Gaza turned to the worse after Israel gave land, can you really fault them for not giving back land in the West bank?

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Palestinian Muslim and Christians leaders both criticized the Pope's sectarian bigotry for what it was

And in response to a quote stating that Muhammed didn't bring anything new to the world, besides the spread of religion by the sword, what do people do -- they riot! Genius!

Yep, quoting someone from hundreds of years ago is bigotry.
Those who criticized him on the Christian side are politically correct fools.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
And yes, Palestinians were ran of their land.

Yeah, right.... :roll:
I guess that's why a British police report made prior to the end of the mandate has called the process evacuation, while noting the Jews have called the Arabs to remain and reopen their shops:

At a meeting yesterday afternoon Arab leaders reiterated their determination to evacuate the entire Arab population and they have been given the loan of ten 3-ton military trucks as from this morning to assist the evacuation.

Yep, I'm still waiting:

Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of the refugees... while it is we who made them leave.... We brought disaster upon ... Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave.... We have rendered them dispossessed.... We have accustomed them to begging.... We have participated in lowering their moral and social level.... Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon ... men, women and children-all this in the service of political purposes .... (Khaled Al-Azm, Syria's Prime Minister after the 1948 war)

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Do you have any objective reports showing it's so?

OF course, for insteace, here is Bush asking Sharon not to expand Israel's holdings in the West Bank, here is one orginsation that tracks the settlement process, here is another, and here is a recent report on new settlement plans. I've got a lot more I can show you as well if you like, but I figure that should make for a good start.

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
And more importantly, what about the rest of my claims? I mean, if the situation in Gaza turned to the worse after Israel gave land, can you really fault them for not giving back land in the West bank?

I fault them for continuing to take more land, can you see how that can only perpetuate this conflict?

 

[imported_dna]

Yep, still waiting......

 

[kylebisme]

I'm still waiting for you present that quote without a crapload of context obviously ripped out of it as is obvious by all the ellipses. I think that was about a month ago in some other thread when I asked you about that.

 

[imported_dna]

"'Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave.?" Source: Khaled Al-Azm, The Memoirs of Khaled al-Azm, Vol. 1 (Beirut: Al Dar Al Muttahida Lil-Nashir, 1973), p. 386.

And you have yet to present evidence that there was a plan for kicking out all the Arabs, and completely ignored the British police report, but hey, you no big deal, you did the same in other threads a month ago.

 

[imported_dna]

Here's an interesting page (via Google Books) from the book Trouble with Islam.

The author refers to what I've mentioned that Kahlid al-Azm said, along with some more information.

(The page I'm pointing to in the book above has nothing to do with Islam, but only refers to what I talk about in the preceding message; comment added due to message below)

 

[Aimster]

Islam has nothing to do with the current conflict ....