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Who won the final debate?
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As a Republican, I have to say Obama looked more polished overall. While I disagree with most of his policies, and am scared to death of his party's platform in general, it is really irritating that McCain didn't run a better campaign and/or make his case better.
It also looked like McCain slept in his suit the night before the debate. You're a wrinkly old man and you come to your final debate where you must execute flawlessly and you show up in wrinkled suit from Mens Wearhouse...WTF Johny?? Cindy...how'd you let John out of the house looking like that?
Not impressed with his apparent anger/frustration that appeared to be boiling below the surface either in all 3 debates, though he managed to temper it somewhat this last debate.
Ugh...no divided gov't FTFL 🙁
It also looked like McCain slept in his suit the night before the debate. You're a wrinkly old man and you come to your final debate where you must execute flawlessly and you show up in wrinkled suit from Mens Wearhouse...WTF Johny?? Cindy...how'd you let John out of the house looking like that?
Not impressed with his apparent anger/frustration that appeared to be boiling below the surface either in all 3 debates, though he managed to temper it somewhat this last debate.
Ugh...no divided gov't FTFL 🙁
SP33Demon
Lifer
McCain was so annoyed at times he couldn't control himself. That is not something America wants in a president, another loose cannon.
Obama clearly won overall. McCain didn't land enough, if at all, blows to get the one knockout he needed. I think a caller after the debate said it all: "I'm changing my vote from McCain to Obama because Obama was more positive and laid out his plans with more clarity."
Oh, and LoL@that kid who called in and led the newscaster on (this was CSPAN) like he was going to vote for one or the other, and then at the end said he was VOTING NADER. 🙂
Obama clearly won overall. McCain didn't land enough, if at all, blows to get the one knockout he needed. I think a caller after the debate said it all: "I'm changing my vote from McCain to Obama because Obama was more positive and laid out his plans with more clarity."
Oh, and LoL@that kid who called in and led the newscaster on (this was CSPAN) like he was going to vote for one or the other, and then at the end said he was VOTING NADER. 🙂
Thump553
Lifer
McCain did a much better job of masking his personal hatred of Obama. His coaches must have drilled it into him over and over-shake hands, be civil.
McCain totally blew it on the $0 healthcare penalty, which surprised me-because every single factchecker previously pointed out that there was no penalty.
The TV pundits who score this like a boxing match say McCain won. They said it before, and were totally disproved by the subsequent polls. They will be disproved again on for this debate-Obama won it clearly. McCain did better, but he just does not come across presidential.
Who lost the debate? Those of us in the drinking game. No Joe Lieberman references (dang Joe the Plumber, had my beer halfway to my lips the first time), no my friends, no maverick. It's like he wanted us sober.
McCain totally blew it on the $0 healthcare penalty, which surprised me-because every single factchecker previously pointed out that there was no penalty.
The TV pundits who score this like a boxing match say McCain won. They said it before, and were totally disproved by the subsequent polls. They will be disproved again on for this debate-Obama won it clearly. McCain did better, but he just does not come across presidential.
Who lost the debate? Those of us in the drinking game. No Joe Lieberman references (dang Joe the Plumber, had my beer halfway to my lips the first time), no my friends, no maverick. It's like he wanted us sober.
whistleclient
Platinum Member
just saw on Politico a report that Joe the plumber is not registered to vote.
I really cannot help but wonder why I am supposed to believe that McCain will be able to keep his cool when discussing and debating foreign policy with foreign leaders and our allies that may oppose his ideas if he cannot even manage to keep his cool with another American that opposes only some of his ideas.
Thump553
Lifer
I'm a self employed professional and represent many other small business people. My wife has a partner in her (seperate) business. My sister and brother in law have their own business. All are Obama supporters. Frankly I'd have to search pretty far to find a small businessperson who supports McCain, and those that do are pretty much soft on him and only support him because they are lifelong Republicans.
We small business people struggle with the cost of health insurance, and many of us do without because of the expense.
Its a fallacy that Obama's plan stifles growth of small business-you have to NET over $250,000 (after deduction of all expenses, including employee wages, etc) before your taxes go up. That's a mightly small percentage of small businesses. If Joe the Plumber is netting a quarter million annually, I'm turning in my shingle to become a tradesman.
Check the video, Mac surreptitiously wipes his hand on his suit after he shakes Obama's just over 90 minutes in. You can probably explain it some other way, but that wouldn't be as juicy :evil:
Kills the econ? Let's just put this in perspective for a moment.
Joe claims that he cannot buy the business under Obama's tax plan. Let's take a look at whether or not that makes sense.
Obama's tax plan is estimated to increase Joe's taxes by about 3% by changing the current 36% to 39%. Using that number, if Joe's plumbing company makes 250k in profit that means he pays 90k under the current tax policy. If he pays 39% then he pays 97.5k in taxes under Obama's policy leaving him with 7.5k difference. That is 7.5k less profit from his previous 160k in profit after taxes under Bush's current plan. That's still 152.5k profit.
But hell, let's change things up a lot for shits and giggles. Let's say it is not a 3% increase. Let's say it is a 6% increase. With that increase in taxes, Joe's net profit gets reduced from the current 160k to 145k.
Now, I am not going to argue with anyone here about what is and isn't fair since that is completely subjective and this forum has driven that subject deeply into the ground of no return already. However, why the hell can't Joe buy this company? Why is it that he is making it seem like the company would go up in smoke because he will be making 152.5k profit instead of 160k or possibly even as low as 145k profit? He is either full of shit or he is terribly uninformed. If the man buys the company and runs it well he will be yet another rich man amongst most rich men that still gets richer even under a democratic tax plan that taxes the rich more heavily. If Obama's tax plan was in effect 5 years ago then Joe would have benefited from it leaving him with even more money to use to become even richer than he is today.
RightIsWrong
Diamond Member
McCain pulled his goalie while tied in overtime.
Obama has always raised taxes every time he could. If you believe him when he says that he will not raise your taxes to help the "poor", then vote for him. I don't trust him. He has said the same thing about campaign financing, and various other things.
When it comes down to taxing small business, if that is important to you, then you can choose to vote for Obama who "says" he will not raise your taxes, or you can vote for McCain who has a track record for keeping his promises regarding raising taxes on small business.
It is very reasonable for a plumbing small business to net a quarter of a million annually. Heck there are plumbers that easily make over 6 figures. However, its very hard work (10-12 hr days), its very dirty and the hrs are very bad. If you are hardworking, then trade in your shingle to become a tradesman.. .However, since Obama is probably going to be president, you might be disappointed in what you will actually take home. Or you might even decide that opening a business that employs follow Americans may not be worth it anymore.
I've observed that on the construction sight, but for residential, the plumbers around here use day laborers and apprentices to do most the dirty work and digging. If they have to come out after 5 p.m, they charge big for it.
Bullshit. There has never been a time in history where any democratic tax policy stopped the rich from getting richer. The historical records are out there. It is not disputable. Only the rich stop themselves from getting richer by creating crappy business and investment plans. If Joe Plumber wants to become richer he will buy that business and he will run it like a champ. If he is not interested in that, he will pass on the opportunity and do nothing. Losing out on a little extra profit due to taxes when the fact of the matter is that you still make a shit ton more money by buying or starting a small business that is successful will not cause Americans to stop starting or expanding small businesses. Yes, they want lower taxes, but at the end of the day all they want is more money. If starting a successful small business means making more money than what they make now then that is what America is going to do if you are willing to work for it.
LunarRay
Diamond Member
As McCain goes so goes the economic philosophy of the Right. Obama won't easily get his full agenda but to the extent it matters this economy will turn around and be driven in the short term by the demand supported by the renewed mind set of the lower and lower middle class folks who live in debt beyond their capacity. Both sides know what happens to a hundred dollars in the hands of the rich versus the 'poor'.
Had McCain announced a full overhaul of the Federal Tax system to something akin to his other anti established norms as the basis for economic stimulus coupled with a health care program designed to approach 'universal' health care using Obama's notion of community service - set up more clinics for the poor manned by doctors and nurses who accept the federal education cost afford-ability program - he could have hit back to back to back home runs... each debate introducing a new chapter in his sweeping change to the new American Society he could have won this election... But, oh well... more of the same failed policy sunk his economic boat... the Foreign affairs aspect he could have won easily had he used the guts of why we were there and why we were going to stay till the job is done.. what ever that really is...
Edit: He could have deflected the age issue by using it to show the world that while Obama was in his mother's tummy he was defending this nation. And, from that time till this he's been in the forefront of every action America took. Play up the Patriotic notion and stimulate the blood flow in proud Americans. "When we - America - are wrong we admit it... but in this case Senator Obama, you are wrong and you will be wrong until you understand and change your view on just what it is that America stands for here and around the world... Freedom"... could have worked... maybe
Had McCain announced a full overhaul of the Federal Tax system to something akin to his other anti established norms as the basis for economic stimulus coupled with a health care program designed to approach 'universal' health care using Obama's notion of community service - set up more clinics for the poor manned by doctors and nurses who accept the federal education cost afford-ability program - he could have hit back to back to back home runs... each debate introducing a new chapter in his sweeping change to the new American Society he could have won this election... But, oh well... more of the same failed policy sunk his economic boat... the Foreign affairs aspect he could have won easily had he used the guts of why we were there and why we were going to stay till the job is done.. what ever that really is...
Edit: He could have deflected the age issue by using it to show the world that while Obama was in his mother's tummy he was defending this nation. And, from that time till this he's been in the forefront of every action America took. Play up the Patriotic notion and stimulate the blood flow in proud Americans. "When we - America - are wrong we admit it... but in this case Senator Obama, you are wrong and you will be wrong until you understand and change your view on just what it is that America stands for here and around the world... Freedom"... could have worked... maybe
351Cleveland
Golden Member
I won... because I didnt waste my time watching it! I spent the night with the kids, wife, and a large bowl of popcorn in the middle of a big pile of pillows watching a movie.
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