Who is being an "honest Broker" in the debt ceiling negotiations?

[fskimospy]

So if Obama asks for the debt ceiling to be raised, in your eyes in must be raised. No debate no negotiation.

I don't care who is asking for it. The debt ceiling should not only be raised, itbshould be abolished. It is simply bad public policy.

You are arguing that politicians should be able to threaten to destroy the world economy in order to pass their preferred domestic legislation. I think that's a horrible way to run a country. Pretty simple.

 

[TerryMathews]

I don't care who is asking for it. The debt ceiling should not only be raised, itbshould be abolished. It is simply bad public policy.

You are arguing that politicians should be able to threaten to destroy the world economy in order to pass their preferred domestic legislation. I think that's a horrible way to run a country. Pretty simple.

And I think ever growing debt is a horrible way to run a country. Pretty simple.

Abolishing the debt ceiling will never happen, nor should it.

 

[fskimospy]

And I think ever growing debt is a horrible way to run a country. Pretty simple.

Abolishing the debt ceiling will never happen, nor should it.

Actually I'm pretty sure it will be abolished, or at least functionally so. You read it here first.

This takes us back to the original thing where I asked you to provide support for the idea that default was superior to increasing the debt limit. If you can't find support for that your argument is pointless.

 

[TerryMathews]

Actually I'm pretty sure it will be abolished, or at least functionally so. You read it here first.

This takes us back to the original thing where I asked you to provide support for the idea that default was superior to increasing the debt limit. If you can't find support for that your argument is pointless.

Figures. Another liberal claiming that any contrary POV is pointless.

We don't have to default. If Obama will negotiate in good faith.

 

[fskimospy]

Figures. Another liberal claiming that any contrary POV is pointless.

We don't have to default. If Obama will negotiate in good faith.

No, logic says that. Nice defense mechanism you have built up that keeps you from examining your own views.

If Obama gives in to blackmail again then the party out of power will simply use the global economy as a way to pass legislation forever until someone calls their bluff. That's an exceptionally foolish way to run a country and it threatens our extremely advantageous position as the global reserve.

There is no negotiating with blackmailers, to do that only encourages more bad behavior. That's why the Republicans need to be broken of this bad habit now.

 

[TerryMathews]

No, logic says that. Nice defense mechanism you have built up that keeps you from examining your own views.

If Obama gives in to blackmail again then the party out of power will simply use the global economy as a way to pass legislation forever until someone calls their bluff. That's an exceptionally foolish way to run a country and it threatens our extremely advantageous position as the global reserve.

There is no negotiating with blackmailers, to do that only encourages more bad behavior. That's why the Republicans need to be broken of this bad habit now.

Yep. You're right. Obama should have the power to do whatever he wants, regardless of what branch of the government that power was vested in. Any decision he makes shouldn't be able to be overturned either. Just like his buddy over in Egypt.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I'm advocating for fiscal issues to be worked out through the normal legislative process and not with parties relying on a global economic catastrophe to get their way. I don't think that's a controversial opinion, but because people don't want to admit the Republicans are acting irresponsibly, they won't admit to it.

So you are arguing for kicking the can down the road so Obama can get everything he wants and nothing ever happens. Rinse, repeat.

Hey, maybe Obama should work with the leadership of both parties rather than resorting to blackmail by pushing the economy over the cliff.

Bipartisanship- Giving Obama everything he wants and everyone else the finger.

Ok, let Obama give everything to the Republicans and stop being irresponsible. That's what you are saying, but just for the other side. Instead some compromise is being reached, but that isn't enough. Nonsense. If Obama refuses to deal at all then its squarely on him. I'm tired of the authoritarian nonsense.

 

[fskimospy]

Yep. You're right. Obama should have the power to do whatever he wants, regardless of what branch of the government that power was vested in. Any decision he makes shouldn't be able to be overturned either. Just like his buddy over in Egypt.

Annnnnnd here come the straw men! You really covered the trifecta in this thread, i want to congratulate you. You made unsupported statements, then you linked an article that disproved your own point, then you played the victim and tried to straw man me.

Keep it classy, friend TerryMathews.

 

[TerryMathews]

Annnnnnd here come the straw men! You really covered the trifecta in this thread, i want to congratulate you. You made unsupported statements, then you linked an article that disproved your own point, then you played the victim and tried to straw man me.

Keep it classy, friend TerryMathews.

Hey, I'm not the one calling a 6 month negotiation blackmail.

The bottom line is the debt ceiling is the domain of Congress. It is Boehner's sworn duty to follow his conscience, the wishes of his district, and the Constitution. No matter what sort of fit el Presedente throws.

 

[TerryMathews]

So you are arguing for kicking the can down the road so Obama can get everything he wants and nothing ever happens. Rinse, repeat.

Hey, maybe Obama should work with the leadership of both parties rather than resorting to blackmail by pushing the economy over the cliff.

Bipartisanship- Giving Obama everything he wants and everyone else the finger.

Ok, let Obama give everything to the Republicans and stop being irresponsible. That's what you are saying, but just for the other side. Instead some compromise is being reached, but that isn't enough. Nonsense. If Obama refuses to deal at all then its squarely on him. I'm tired of the authoritarian nonsense.

Look Hayabusa, you just don't get it. We are talking about a global financial crisis here. There's no room for negotiation when were talking about the fates of other countries.
😀

 

[fskimospy]

So you are arguing for kicking the can down the road so Obama can get everything he wants and nothing ever happens. Rinse, repeat.

Hey, maybe Obama should work with the leadership of both parties rather than resorting to blackmail by pushing the economy over the cliff.

Bipartisanship- Giving Obama everything he wants and everyone else the finger.

Ok, let Obama give everything to the Republicans and stop being irresponsible. That's what you are saying, but just for the other side. Instead some compromise is being reached, but that isn't enough. Nonsense. If Obama refuses to deal at all then its squarely on him. I'm tired of the authoritarian nonsense.

Where are you getting these crazy ideas? Why is it hard to understand that by saying certain things should be off limits does not mean that all negotiations are off limits?

You guys are so hard wired into viewing politics like a football game that you can't rationally examine the issues. Global financial catastrophes are bad things to mess with, therefore its bad to repeatedly threaten them to get what you want. If Obama decides to indulge the reckless fools who wish to do this, he will be doing America a disservice. All of us. There is a reason why you don't negotiate with blackmailers and its because it doesn't fix the problem. The Republicans need to be taught this it seems, lets all hope they are sane enough to remember they were elected to serve America.

This is not a controversial idea.

 

[TerryMathews]

Where are you getting these crazy ideas? Why is it hard to understand that by saying certain things should be off limits does not mean that all negotiations are off limits?

You guys are so hard wired into viewing politics like a football game that you can't rationally examine the issues. Global financial catastrophes are bad things to mess with, therefore its bad to repeatedly threaten them to get what you want. If Obama decides to indulge the reckless fools who wish to do this, he will be doing America a disservice. All of us. There is a reason why you don't negotiate with blackmailers and its because it doesn't fix the problem. The Republicans need to be taught this it seems, lets all hope they are sane enough to remember they were elected to serve America.

This is not a controversial idea.

Yes, it is. You are saying that the debt ceiling is not negotiable. That is controversial.

 

[fskimospy]

Hey, I'm not the one calling a 6 month negotiation blackmail.

The bottom line is the debt ceiling is the domain of Congress. It is Boehner's sworn duty to follow his conscience, the wishes of his district, and the Constitution. No matter what sort of fit el Presedente throws.

You still haven't told me why the time frame matters or why the presence of negotiations means it isn't blackmail.

What you both are advocating for is simply insanity. There is no credible authority that I am aware of that would EVER recommend what you are saying. You just don't know enough to know how dumb it is, as evidenced by your thoughts on Greece and government debt.

 

[TerryMathews]

Annnnnnd here come the straw men! You really covered the trifecta in this thread, i want to congratulate you. You made unsupported statements, then you linked an article that disproved your own point, then you played the victim and tried to straw man me.

Keep it classy, friend TerryMathews.

"Try addressing my argument on the merits. I asked you nicely."

 

[TerryMathews]

You still haven't told me why the time frame matters or why the presence of negotiations means it isn't blackmail.

What you both are advocating for is simply insanity. There is no credible authority that I am aware of that would EVER recommend what you are saying. You just don't know enough to know how dumb it is, as evidenced by your thoughts on Greece and government debt.

Because it's not blackmail. It's a negotiation.

That's what you seem to be lacking the intelligence to see. Mr. Obama wants the debt ceiling raised. He must negotiate for it.

It's an existing law. It's not like it requires revision.

 

[fskimospy]

"Try addressing my argument on the merits. I asked you nicely."

I have repeatedly addressed it on the merits.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Where are you getting these crazy ideas? Why is it hard to understand that by saying certain things should be off limits does not mean that all negotiations are off limits?

You guys are so hard wired into viewing politics like a football game that you can't rationally examine the issues. Global financial catastrophes are bad things to mess with, therefore its bad to repeatedly threaten them to get what you want. If Obama decides to indulge the reckless fools who wish to do this, he will be doing America a disservice. All of us. There is a reason why you don't negotiate with blackmailers and its because it doesn't fix the problem. The Republicans need to be taught this it seems, lets all hope they are sane enough to remember they were elected to serve America.

This is not a controversial idea.

You are so hard wired to look at Obama to win as being more important than both sides making concessions they never would any other time. The only "global financial catastrophe" is being signed on by Obama and his supporters who would rather see disaster than compromise. It's been pointed out that both parties are willing to concede. It's that insistence on disaster rather than compromise and then cry "global disaster" that is the problem. OK, have it your way. Let Obama wreck everything. You'll not get it, but at least you can blame Republicans.

In your mind you ruining the nation rather than compromising is preferable. So be it.

 

[TerryMathews]

I have repeatedly addressed it on the merits.

No, you've just kept parroting the same bullshit.

 

[fskimospy]

Because it's not blackmail. It's a negotiation.

That's what you seem to be lacking the intelligence to see. Mr. Obama wants the debt ceiling raised. He must negotiate for it.

It's an existing law. It's not like it requires revision.

You do not appear to understand what blackmail is.

So your idea of what is happening is this:
Obama wants to keep a worldwide financial catastrophe from happening.
Boehner wants spending cuts.

Therefore if Boehner agrees not to have the worldwide financial system melt down, Obama needs to agree to spending cuts. That is basically the definition of blackmail. It also assumes that Boehner doesn't care if the global economy is destroyed (and by the way the US is a part of the global economy). Or at least he values the global economy less than he does spending cuts.

If that is the case...holy shit.

 

[fskimospy]

You are so hard wired to look at Obama to win as being more important than both sides making concessions they never would any other time. The only "global financial catastrophe" is being signed on by Obama and his supporters who would rather see disaster than compromise. It's been pointed out that both parties are willing to concede. It's that insistence on disaster rather than compromise and then cry "global disaster" that is the problem. OK, have it your way. Let Obama wreck everything. You'll not get it, but at least you can blame Republicans.

In your mind you ruining the nation rather than compromising is preferable. So be it.

As I told our good friend terry, you appear to think that Boehner not destroying the world economy is a concession. That I'd a bizarre way to look at an elected official and if its the case he needs to be removed from office immediately.

You can project on me all you want, but the policy you're advocating for is batshit insane.

 

[TerryMathews]

You do not appear to understand what blackmail is.

So your idea of what is happening is this:
Obama wants to keep a worldwide financial catastrophe from happening.
Boehner wants spending cuts.

Therefore if Boehner agrees not to have the worldwide financial system melt down, Obama needs to agree to spending cuts. That is basically the definition of blackmail. It also assumes that Boehner doesn't care if the global economy is destroyed (and by the way the US is a part of the global economy). Or at least he values the global economy less than he does spending cuts.

If that is the case...holy shit.

Boehner's priority should be our economy, not the world economy. As should Obama's.

The bottom line this is an existing law that requires no changes. If Mr. Obama wishes an amended version of that law he must negotiate in good faith.

The President has no control nor responsibility for the debt ceiling.

 

[TerryMathews]

You can project on me all you want, but the policy you're advocating for is batshit insane.

If you were right Mr. Obama would have no trouble getting his votes with or without Boehner's support.

 

[fskimospy]

Boehner's priority should be our economy, not the world economy. As should Obama's.

The bottom line this is an existing law that requires no changes. If Mr. Obama wishes an amended version of that law he must negotiate in good faith.

The President has no control nor responsibility for the debt ceiling.

The US economy is part of the world economy and it would be dealt an utterly catastrophic blow by hitting the debt ceiling. I cannot overemphasize catastrophic. If you believe their duty is to the US economy then you don't have much choice but to agree with me. Even Boehner admits hitting the ceiling would be disastrous.

The only thing Obama should negotiate for is the complete removal of the debt ceiling. Amy other negotiation is simply giving in to blackmail. Obama is ready and willing to prevent an economic catastrophe at any time with no strings attached. Only the Republicans wish to attach conditions to their part in preventing this disaster. There is simply no way around it.

If Obama is smart, and I think he is, he will refuse to be blackmailed. I anticipate he will communicate very clearly a complete and utter unwillingness to negotiate in any way on the debt ceiling. This is in fact the only responsible choice he can make. Its sad that one of our two political parties has abdicated their responsibility, but we can't let the Republicans drag us down with them.

 

[fskimospy]

If you were right Mr. Obama would have no trouble getting his votes with or without Boehner's support.

Yeah because the Republicans are so well known for their rationality these days.

 

[blankslate]

Considering the fact that the debt ceiling being raised was done without controversy until recently.

Plus the fact that when it happened at most it something the minority party made speeches about and not a political bludgeon until the past few years...

I think the conclusion is rather easy.