Who can tell me about Flint, Michigan? - Updated with new question ;)

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hzl eyed grl

Super Moderator<br>Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
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<< Umm...wow, you really do live in a small town huh? One good thing about Flint is that the cost of living is really low for being a relatively big city. >>


When I was out there visiting Xerox Man I couldn't believe how small it was. I live in a fairly small town/area...but it's nothing compared to where he is now. :Q
 

aphex

Moderator<br>All Things Apple
Moderator
Jul 19, 2001
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Wasnt that movie filmed there awhile ago about the layoffs??
 

SpongeBob

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2001
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Wasnt that movie filmed there awhile ago about the layoffs??

Roger and Me, by Michael Moore
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
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<< Not the nicest town . . . as bad as Detroit? >>

Flint is exactly like Detroit, only a lot smaller. Flint is a typical post-industrial town; above average unemployment, above average poverty, above average violent crime, not a real sightly place. It has a lots of dungey (pronounced with a "J") looking areas of town, but it also has its bright spots and a couple areas that are going through a renaissance of sorts.

I was born in Flint and lived there until my parents moved to the burbs to escape the rising crime in Flint when I was about two years old. We moved about 20 miles out of the city limits to small rural community (which is not so small anymore) where I lived until about 19. I've lived in Mt. Morris (three miles north of Flint) for six years.

As noted already, most of the burbs around Flint are nice places to live; Flushing, Mt. Morris, Montrose, Genesee, Grand Blanc, etc. Between Flint and surrounding areas, there is quite a bit to do.

Flint has a lot of shopping, the Flint Symphony Orchestra (I'm not kidding) is surprisingly good for the town it calls home, there is a Planetarium (where you can see cool shows like Laser Floyd or Laser Metallica), Flint Cultural Center, Institute of Music and Arts that isn't half bad (again, considering the city it is located in), the Whiting Auditorium which has some cool concerts from time to time (also the home of the Flint Symphony Orchestra), Sloan Museum, University of Michigan Flint, Mott Community College, Baker College, Kettering, etc.

There are also lots of bars, hookers, strip clubs, bums, gangs, and other unsavory elements, no different than any other city. Don't go wandering around until you know where you should be and where you shouldn't be, it isn't always easy to tell just by appearances. There are some "bad" looking areas that I don't have any concerns about being in, and there are "bad" looking areas I don't even like to drive through with the windows up and doors locked.

Any more questions, PM me.
 

jpsj82

Senior member
Oct 30, 2000
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<< Go rent "Roger & Me". That will show what Flint was like in the late eighties, if that helps. >>

i was going to post about his too. it would be good to watch, but i am not so sure how much the town is like today compared to back in the late 80s.


edit: more movie info: here
 

Braves

Banned
Dec 16, 2001
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Our american history class just finished watching Roger and Me less then a week ago, and as soon as I saw this thread I thought the poster was a person who went to my school... but apparently not. Flint sounds like a pretty run down and beat up town from the movie by Michael Moore, but I can't tell you anything about what it's like today. All my knowledge of the town consists of what was included in the movie :/ Sorry for not being able to help much
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
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<< Flint sounds like a pretty run down and beat up town from the movie by Michael Moore, but I can't tell you anything about what it's like today. All my knowledge of the town consists of what was included in the movie >>

Most people's only knowledge of Flint comes, unfortunately, from Moore's movie; an anachronistic union propaganda flick made by a man who is a notorious liar and far-flung political activist. Its rather sad how an agenda-driven zealot can make a movie that pulls the wool over so many eyes.

And its being shown in an "American History" class no less! Unbelievable.
 

JetBlack69

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2001
4,580
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<< And its being shown in an "American History" class no less! Unbelievable. >>



Yep, I saw it last year in my senior class. We were talking about the job market and such. That movie made Flint look like crap. I don't know how much it has changed since then, sorry.
 

MrTux

Senior member
Nov 6, 2001
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Flint is a pretty "ghetto" place IMO...if you're coming from a small town like me, it's scary in a lot of places :Q
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
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<< it was rated the 7th most dangerous city in the nation >>

Flint has consistently ranked among the 10 most dangerous cities in the nation for more than 20 years now. Flint acheived #1 and #2 during the early 80's. We like to think we're competing with Gary, Indiana. ;-)

<< Yep, I saw it last year in my senior class. We were talking about the job market and such. That movie made Flint look like crap. I don't know how much it has changed since then, sorry. >>

No apology necessary. The only thing wrong with Roger and Me is the how, when, what, who, and why. Everything else is accurate. ;-)

Flint's story is no different than any other post-industrial town: a blue-collar manufacturing town comprised of a largely uneducated work-force who long became "accustomed" (read: complacent) to high-paying manufacturing jobs (why should all that book learnin' be a priority when you can make top dollar as a high school drop-out?), struggling to find its place in a new economy where the U.S. is no longer the manufacturing and industrial center of the world. It could just as well be Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Gary, Indiana, or Battle Creek, Michigan with the demise of the steel industry...all the same story.

<< Flint is a pretty "ghetto" place IMO...if you're coming from a small town like me, it's scary in a lot of places >>

There is no question that Flint is a rough town in many areas, there are places the cops won't go without sufficient numbers or until the shooting stops. ;-)
 

mpitts

Lifer
Jun 9, 2000
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Listen to tcsenter.. He absolutely nailed it.

I lived in the Flint area for 23 years until I moved to Atlanta. Flint is a very narrow-minded, clastrophobic town. It seems that a lot of the people who live there don't understand that there is an entire world out there. My uncle (who was also from Flint) and I have a running joke about the people in Flint:

To figure out how old someone is, ask them how long they have worked for GM. Add 18 to that number and you have their age.

SO many people went straight from high school to high-paying union jobs at a GM plant (there were 4 there last I knew), so there was really no need to further their education. Nor was there any reason to branch out (other than going to their "cottage up north") Growing up, almost every one of my friend's dads worked at GM.

My wife has basically refused to go back there, and I can't say that I blame her. There is nothing left up there for me outside of the few friends that cared enough to stay in touch with me and my family. Also, just because you have seen "Roger and Me", it doesn't make you an expert on the city. It is more of a sensational interpretation by a man with an agenda than it is based in fact.

Don't get me wrong, Flint isn't all bad. I have to admit that I miss it there sometimes, but I don't know if I could ever live there again.
 

Que-TiP

Senior member
Dec 8, 1999
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these guys are right, i used to work in flint on summer internships.
Flint is suck.
The suburbs are decent, but the city iteslf is horrible.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
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<< I lived in the Flint area for 23 years until I moved to Atlanta. Flint is a very narrow-minded, clastrophobic town. It seems that a lot of the people who live there don't understand that there is an entire world out there. >>

Hey, a Flinter! Or is it Flintstone? ;-)

Anyhoo, Flint is narrow-minded in some ways, that is true. Its MUCH better than it was around 1985. But narrow-minded wasn't its chief failing. Complacency and gluttony was its chief failings.

As you said, for so many generations, sons and grandsons went straight into GM from high school, if not sooner, where they made a very good wage and worked for 30+ years then retired. It became the way of life for the whole community, like a mining town. Most people simply "expected" there to be a job available for them when they were ready for it, because that's the way it had been for their brothers, uncles, fathers and grandfathers. There was no reason to obtain any more than a high school diploma (and you spent most of your high school years partying at that), because you could hardly make a better living even with a few years of college under your belt.

My father, seven uncles, three aunts, and who knows how many neighbors and friends of the family, all worked for General Motors. My father retired from Chevrolet in 1993 with 37 years seniority.

I've never applied to work at General Motors, because my parents pounded into me that I should never "expect" to have a job there. Nobody 'owed' me a job. So I was conditioned to, as you say, "branch out" and consider other opportunities. Once I discovered there was 'another world' out there besides GM, I never even considered working there.

A couple people I knew, however, seemed as though they had been living under some notion that working at General Motors was a sort of 'destiny', as if they believed it was their 'right' to work at General Motors, because that's what everyone else did, and so should they. I've talked with people who could not get a job at General Motors, and to hear them talk, you'd swear they believed as though they had been "robbed" of a job that 'belonged' to them by some birth-right. It is the most bizarre thing, but that was the predominant mentality in Flint.

This mentality wasn't nearly as prevalent if you were raised outside of Flint, in one of the surrounding communities from which many GM workers commuted. But, inside of Flint, it was like another planet!

This is actually an old problem, you have 40 year olds who behave this way, and coupled with the union's grip on GM that made it virtually impossible to fire bad employees, it began to severely and palpably erode the work ethic of many workers. Although most employees were in fact good workers, it was a rotten-to-the-core minority who ruined it for the rest.

This minority began to flagrantly violate company rules, attendence was atrocious, drinking and substance abuse on the job was commonplace, along with gambling and the occasional prostitute who would be smuggled in the plant. Flint's bargaining units were as militant if not more so than Detroit's, and there was a palpable disrespect for the company. The motto among this minority became "stick it to GM before they stick it to you". Employee theft of tools and parts was rampant, vandalism was considered a 'healthy' way to express your dissent, it is well known that sabotage was used to stop the assembly line so that workers could go home early...paid, of course.

It became so flagrant that these workers would BRAG about what they had done to 'stick it to GM' - a badge of honor of sorts. Productivity plummeted, quality control was deplorable. GM actually had to devise and implement incentives just to get absenteeism rates below 30% (that means on any given day, 30% of the work force didn't show up).

Can you get the union to admit any of this? You sure can. But, they're not going to admit it to "outsiders", no more than someone who smokes pot would admit it to you unless they were reasonably sure you were "one of them" (a fellow pot smoker). If you're from Flint, have mutual friends or family in the union, and they're reasonably sure that you are "one of them", you can get confessionals.

Only someone from Flint or the surrounding area, or has witnessed the same thing in another community, would know I'm speaking the truth. It is Flint's dirty little secret, one that people such as Michael Moore would hate for you to know since they've made a great living 'demonizing' GM and promoting the plight of the 'benevolent' union worker. lol!

After fighting tooth and nail with the union for 20 years to eliminate this bad seed from their ranks, GM just threw up their hands and allowed it to go on virtually unchecked for several years. The union, pathologically myopic, took this to mean it had "won" and gave itself a big pat on the back, but they didn't "win". GM had decided what it would do about the Flint situation, it would simply award contracts to plants based on quality and productivity, knowing that Flint would lose miserably in this respect.

Most of Flint's manufacturing jobs that weren't lost to technology went to other high-paying plants in the United States, many to other plants within Michigan, not to foreign countries so it could employ "slave labor" as the union claims. In fact, GM is building two brand new plants in Michigan, it just won't be building them in Flint. Not now, not ever.

When the workers finally realized GM's gameplan, it made a desperate 11th hour effort to improve productivity and quality control so it might have a chance of competing for these contracts. There was a major upheaval in the union leadership, the corrupt and militant union element that ruled the roost for a half-century was tossed out, the new union leadership made concession after concession, including allowing GM to summarily fire all these bad apples they previously couldn't get rid of for anything short of murder. But, it was too little, too late.

GM did award Chevy Truck and Bus, which was scheduled to close, a new contract for pickup trucks when trucks were selling so well that GM couldn't seem to build enough of them. But, that was ONLY because it benefitted GM to do so. What happened in Flint was inexcusible and GM doesn't forget. As soon as GM has the capacity to build these trucks elsewhere, it will do so.

The really tragic part about this is that most of the workers were hard-working and decent folks who did NOT agree with what went on there, but when you belong to an industrial union that indoctrinates their membership into "solidarity" (using deception and other dirty tricks if need be), you go along to get along and you look the other way, even if you hate it.
 

Jombo

Golden Member
Aug 19, 2001
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I live in the burb of Detroit, about 25mins north of and 40mins south of Flint.
I tend to think Michigan sucks, and keep wanting to leave for CA, but need to find a job out there first.. and if you sit and think about it, it's not too bad..

Flint might not be too bad, esp in this job market.
I don't know what kind of industry you are in, but anything technical, i'd try to grab the job regardless of where the job is..
unless of course you are lucky enough to have a choice in the matter..

tscenter seems to have a lot of info for ya already, and i didn't bother reading through it ^^ so i'll just leave it at that.
good luck on your job, if you decide to take it ^^
 

Shaftatplanetquake

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2000
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Some loser from Flint, Michigan tried to troll me.

LINK

Let it be noted that I got a refund from him after calling him up and scaring the sh!t out of him.

That is my only experience with Flint, MI.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
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I hate to paint such a dim and grim picture of Flint. That was all yesterday and Flint is slowly coming to terms with what happened to it. Although it still bears some resemblence to that city portrayed in Roger and Me, Flint is far better than it once was.

There are still these entrenched 'pockets' of disgruntled or retired union members who peddle their GM-hating propaganda, towing the line like 'good union brothers and sisters', and they will to the day they die. However, it is actually rather surprising just how easily you can find people who have zero sympathy for the unions and cannot find one iota of blame to place on GM for pulling out. They know what happened, their fathers or other family members worked there, so they know damn well what happened - everyone does.

You can suppress or distort the truth, but eventually it keeps cropping back up again and again, giving you an annoying elbow in the side, until you have to acknowledge it, some sooner than others. I live for the day when Michael Moore is exposed for the fraudulent liar that he is and he will be a bitter and fat old man who has nobody to peddle his lies to except for maybe his dog...who I hope bites him on the ankle.

Like any industrial town, Flint was bound to lose jobs due to technology and foreign competition, but it could have retained a full quarter to half of the jobs it once had, had the union stopped trying to keep the days of the Sit Down Strikes alive and their members locked in perpetual "battle" with General Motors.

It was in the interest of the union to create or perpetuate tensions which would serve as a constant reminder to their members that the company is always 'evil' and the union is always 'good' in order to keep "solidarity" strong. It was in the interest of General Motors to appease workers and reduce tensions.

GM tried appeasement over and again as an incentive to reduce tensions, increase productivity and efficiency, and to reduce rampant absenteeism, theft and waste, while the union just used the 'stick minus carrot' approach, with which they would bash GM over the head every time it was exposed. Make no mistake, it is the Michael Moore's of Flint who deserve blame for that portion of Flint's decline which could have been prevented, and I hope to see the day where Moore and his politics held in contempt for it.
 
L

Lola

Flint....is Flint. i used to go to school there and did not feel very safe, unfortunately. Like some others said, there are some nice suburbs around like Swartz creek
 

iamwiz82

Lifer
Jan 10, 2001
30,772
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I go to the same school as SpongeBob, so i have a few years of experience with Flint.

First, cost of living is CHEAP. Example: the taco bell on the corner of miller and ballenger(i think thats it) is over a dollar cheaper for a 3 soft taco supreme meal than the one by my work.

Second, its dangerous. My freshman year of college they found a young boy(~12) floating in the "scenic" Flint river not more than 200 yards from my dorm room. I did not go out often during the night. The same year, a few weeks before i started school, some kid was robbed of everything he had, including clothes. hehehehe

Third, it is not friendly. Being white, i am constantly stared at when i go through downtown Flint. A friend and i were scared poopless going to the post office in the middle of the day. EVERYONE was watching us. Kinda weird.

That being said. I do miss it when i am on he work term of my co-op. It grows on you.

I suggest you listen to Flint Town by the Dayton Family if you want to know the attitude of the entire city. It's a rap song, which i normally dont care for, but this one is true.
 

creedog

Golden Member
Nov 15, 1999
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". . and a Camelot Music . ."


Sweet Jesus, you will be on the cutting edge of popular music, move over CArson Daley, Here comes Xerox
 

slickcat

Golden Member
Feb 7, 2001
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<< I go to the same school as SpongeBob, so i have a few years of experience with Flint.

First, cost of living is CHEAP. Example: the taco bell on the corner of miller and ballenger(i think thats it) is over a dollar cheaper for a 3 soft taco supreme meal than the one by my work.
>>



The cost of living in Flint is definitely cheap overall but there are also parts that cost a whole lot to live in. The area of Miller Rd refrerred to "The Miller Rd Mansions" There are some huge mansions in that neighborhood and all of the houses surrounding that neighborhood are super nice. That is also right before you get into the downtown area.



<< Second, its dangerous. My freshman year of college they found a young boy(~12) floating in the "scenic" Flint river not more than 200 yards from my dorm room. I did not go out often during the night. The same year, a few weeks before i started school, some kid was robbed of everything he had, including clothes. hehehehe

Third, it is not friendly. Being white, i am constantly stared at when i go through downtown Flint. A friend and i were scared poopless going to the post office in the middle of the day. EVERYONE was watching us. Kinda weird.
>>



Downtown Flint has got to be one of the safest parts of Flint. There really is no reason to be scared downtown. There are so many cops down there. The places you really should be scared are some of the streets on the East side and the entire North end of Flint. Any street that is the name of a state you would be better off avoiding also.



<< That being said. I do miss it when i am on he work term of my co-op. It grows on you. >>



Flint does grow on you for some strange reason. I've lived in the burbs of Flint (Swartz Creek) for 21 years and it's not as horrible as everybody makes it out to be. Really the biggest annoyances of Flint is the lack of stuff to do. That would also attribute to the crime factor. The best thing about downtown Flint though would be the music scene on the weekends.



<< I suggest you listen to Flint Town by the Dayton Family if you want to know the attitude of the entire city. It's a rap song, which i normally dont care for, but this one is true. >>