White House to Push Gun Control

[HAL9000]

It's already illegal to carry a firearm while drinking. Next!

Sorry what? I wasn't talking about drunk shooting I was talking about how arresting drunk drivers cuts drunk driving deaths, so arresting gun owners would cut gun deaths...

 

[nick1985]

You can say what you want Nick, but you're one of the unstable retards I'm referring to.

And your brain thinks the ACLU would take up a 2nd amendment fight in place of the NRA. Did you huff paint as a kid?

 

[JD50]

Sorry what? I wasn't talking about drunk shooting I was talking about how arresting drunk drivers cuts drunk driving deaths, so arresting gun owners would cut gun deaths...

Explain to me again how driving while intoxicated and legally carrying a hand gun are in any way related.

 

[Genx87]

I'll grant you thats definitely the reason that we can have a total ban that works, but by making gun's illegal your gun deaths would drop dramatically, because all those deaths where people kill family members accidentally with legally purchased guns would disappear.

I am sure if we banned gas fireplaces we could save the few people a year who die from them failing. The few people who die from a family member owning gun I file under "shit happens".

 

[Genx87]

Your point is a very valid point. Banning guns is by no means the right way to go. Though the classic gun nut line of "if you make guns illegal only criminals will have guns" doesn't really work either. It'd actually be more like as you point out how banning drugs and alcohol works. It's more like if you make guns illegal you force a large portion of the population to be criminals. However, gun control can work, it just has to make sense in how it's implemented. Banning anything outright will never function, but common sense controls, regulations, and registrations would be somewhere to start. We have to have a car registration and license and cars purpose isn't to kill people but in irresponsible hands they can. Guns purpose is to kill and yet many resist any form of licensing and registering.

What is your goal in banning\restricting guns?

 

[HAL9000]

Thats how it...works?

Firstly gun ownership was made illegal in 1988. Pistols for sport were banned in 1997. Secondly compared to the US' death per 100,000:

USA: 10.2%
England/ Wales: 0.46%

Yeah it works.

 

[Genx87]

Fair point:

Fatal accidental gun deaths in 2004:

0.59 per 100,000.

That's a lot.
Actually, extrapolate that 0.59% Across the population of the US (307,006,550) And you get:
1,811,339 deaths in 2004. accidental gun deaths. Fuck.



Hmmm.. Banning cars != banning guns.

Drunk driving arrests do reduce drunk driving deaths... So yeah, ban guns.

Try about 1811, not 1.8 million. So small it isnt even worth mentioning imo.

 

[HAL9000]

Explain to me again how driving while intoxicated and legally carrying a hand gun are in any way related.

I am sure if we banned gas fireplaces we could save the few people a year who die from them failing. The few people who die from a family member owning gun I file under "shit happens".

The number of deaths per year in the US based on guns, is not just shit happens, it's a big problem if 10 in 100,000 of the population were being killed a year in gas fireplaces, yeah they'd make them illegal

 

[nick1985]

Again, the only reason the UK's ban worked is because you live on an island.

How did their ban work?

Again,

"Fact: Ironically, firearm use in crimes has doubled in the decade since handguns were banned." --The Times, 2007

Fact: Street robberies soared 28% in 2001. Violent crime was up 11%, murders up 4%,
and rapes are up 14%. --British Home Office

Fact: This trend continues in 2004 with a 10% increase in street crime, 8% increase in
muggings, and a 22% increase in robberies. --British Home Office

Fact: Handgun homicides in England and Wales reached an all-time high in 2000, years after a virtual ban on private handgun ownership. More than 3,000 crimes involving handguns were recorded in 1999-2000, including the 42 homicides, 310 cases of attempted murder, 2,561 robberies and 204 burglaries. -- British Home Office

Fact: Between 1997 and 1999, there were 429 murders in London, the highest two-year
figure for more than 10 years – nearly two-thirds of those involved firearms – in a
country that has virtually banned private firearm ownership. ---King's College in London

Fact: Handguns were used in 3,685 offenses in 2000 compared with 2,648 in 1997, an
increase of 40%. --King's College in London

 

[HAL9000]

Try about 1811, not 1.8 million. So small it isnt even worth mentioning imo.

Tell that to the 1811 people's families.

 

[nick1985]

Firstly gun ownership was made illegal in 1988. Pistols for sport were banned in 1997. Secondly compared to the US' death per 100,000:

USA: 10.2%
England/ Wales: 0.46%

Yeah it works.

Comparing crime rates between America and Britain is flawed. In America, a gun crime is recorded as a gun crime. In Britain, a crime is only recorded when there is a final disposition (a conviction). All unsolved gun crimes in Britain are not reported as gun crimes, grossly undercounting the amount of gun crime there. To make matters worse, British law enforcement has been exposed for falsifying criminal reports to create falsely lower crime figures, in part to preserve tourism.

--Daily Telegraph

 

[nick1985]

Firstly gun ownership was made illegal in 1988.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom

Nothing there about 1988, just 1997.

1997 Firearms Act

"Following the Dunblane massacre, the government passed the Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997 which means that as of 1997 handguns have been almost completely banned for private ownership"

Helps to know what you are talking about.

 

[xj0hnx]

However, gun control can work, it just has to make sense in how it's implemented.

No, it can't because criminals do not follow laws. The only people that gun laws effect are people that follow the law anyway.

Banning anything outright will never function, but common sense controls, regulations, and registrations would be somewhere to start. We have to have a car registration and license and cars purpose isn't to kill people but in irresponsible hands they can. Guns purpose is to kill and yet many resist any form of licensing and registering.

Driving is a privilege, owning firearms is a right, and as said above laws are only as effective as those that follow them. Carrying a gun already requires a permit in most places, and serious firearms already are registered.

 

[xj0hnx]

but by making gun's illegal your gun deaths would drop dramatically, because all those deaths where people kill family members accidentally with legally purchased guns would disappear.

No it wouldn't, and statistics bare that out.

 

[HAL9000]

How did their ban work?

Again,

"Fact: Ironically, firearm use in crimes has doubled in the decade since handguns were banned." --The Times, 2007

Based on the 1997 ban not the actual ban in 1988

Fact: Street robberies soared 28% in 2001. Violent crime was up 11%, murders up 4%,
and rapes are up 14%. --British Home Office

Nothing to say about this one, nothing to do with gun bans

Fact: This trend continues in 2004 with a 10% increase in street crime, 8% increase in
muggings, and a 22% increase in robberies. --British Home Office

see previous

Fact: Handgun homicides in England and Wales reached an all-time high in 2000, years after a virtual ban on private handgun ownership. More than 3,000 crimes involving handguns were recorded in 1999-2000, including the 42 homicides, 310 cases of attempted murder, 2,561 robberies and 204 burglaries. -- British Home Office

This one is Interesting can I read the source?

Fact: Between 1997 and 1999, there were 429 murders in London, the highest two-year
figure for more than 10 years – nearly two-thirds of those involved firearms – in a
country that has virtually banned private firearm ownership. ---King's College in London

For more than 10 years, meaning that when guns were legal before 1988 there were higher two year figures.

Fact: Handguns were used in 3,685 offenses in 2000 compared with 2,648 in 1997, an
increase of 40%. --King's College in London

Again, based on 1997 law not the actual one in 1988

Above.

 

[HAL9000]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom

Nothing there about 1988, just 1997.

1997 Firearms Act

Following the Dunblane massacre, the government passed the Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997 which means that as of 1997 handguns have been almost completely banned for private ownership

Helps to know what you are talking about.

1968 Firearms Act
The 1968 Firearms Act brought together all existing firearms legislation in a single statute. Disregarding minor changes, it formed the legal basis for British firearms control policy until 1988 when the Firearms (Amendment) Act was put through Parliament in the aftermath of the 1987 Hungerford massacre. For the first time, it introduced controls for long-barrelled shotguns, in the form of Shotgun Certificates which, like Firearm Certificates, were issued by an area's chief constable in England, Scotland, and Wales. Also, while applicants for Firearms Certificates had to show a good reason for possessing the firearm or ammunition, this did not apply to Shotgun Certificates. Firearms must be stored locked and ammunition must be stored and locked in a different cabinet.
The Act also prohibited the possession of firearms or ammunition by convicted criminals who had been sentenced to imprisonment; those sentenced to three months to three years imprisonment were banned from possessing firearms or ammunition for five years, while those sentenced to longer terms were banned for life. However, an application could be made to have the prohibition removed.[19]
The Act was accompanied by an amnesty when many older weapons were handed into the police. It has remained a feature of British policing that from time-to-time a brief firearms amnesty is often declared.[20]
Changes in public attitudes in the 1970s and 1980s changed the basis on which firearms were perceived and understood in British society. Increasingly graphic portrayals of firearms involved in gratuitous acts of violence in the mass media gave rise to concern of the emergence of an aggressive "gun culture". A steady rise in violent gun crime[citation needed] generally also became an issue of concern.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom

Doesn't it?

 

[nick1985]

Above.

Show me the 1988 law, all I have read is the 1997 law.

Again,

"Following the Dunblane massacre, the government passed the Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997 which means that as of 1997 handguns have been almost completely banned for private ownership" --Wikipedia. Seems 1997 was the year of handgun ban.

 

[HAL9000]

Comparing crime rates between America and Britain is flawed. In America, a gun crime is recorded as a gun crime. In Britain, a crime is only recorded when there is a final disposition (a conviction). All unsolved gun crimes in Britain are not reported as gun crimes, grossly undercounting the amount of gun crime there. To make matters worse, British law enforcement has been exposed for falsifying criminal reports to create falsely lower crime figures, in part to preserve tourism.

--Daily Telegraph

You're absolutely right comparing the two is flawed, however it does give an insight into the fact that by banning guns the deaths went down. I'm not saying they stopped, they went down.

 

[nick1985]

[/B]



Doesn't it?

Uh, that doesn't deal with handguns.

 

[HAL9000]

Show me the 1988 law, all I have read is the 1997 law.

Again,

"Following the Dunblane massacre, the government passed the Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997 which means that as of 1997 handguns have been almost completely banned for private ownership" --Wikipedia. Seems 1997 was the year of handgun ban.

I understand that it's confusing, but I posted it above it's titled 1968 read the first two sentences.

 

[nick1985]

You're absolutely right comparing the two is flawed, however it does give an insight into the fact that by banning guns the deaths went down. I'm not saying they stopped, they went down.

Odd, how the "facts" from your own government show a rise in firearm deaths.

 

[HAL9000]

Uh, that doesn't deal with handguns.

Too true, it deals with all firearms, once that was the case we actually outlawed all handguns in 1997 with or without a licence, but after 1988 you had to have a firearms licence to own any time of firearm

 

[HAL9000]

Odd, how the "facts" from your own government show a rise in firearm deaths.

Could you show me the source, so I can read it in context.

 

[nick1985]

Too true, it deals with all firearms, once that was the case we actually outlawed all handguns in 1997 with or without a licence, but after 1988 you had to have a firearms licence to own any time of firearm

Yeah, all I'm reading is the 1988 law made it hard for criminals to get a license and made it harder to get a gun in general. The outright handgun BAN was 1997. Soon after, crime rose.

 

[Genx87]

The number of deaths per year in the US based on guns, is not just shit happens, it's a big problem if 10 in 100,000 of the population were being killed a year in gas fireplaces, yeah they'd make them illegal

Accidental deaths from family members absolutely? The rest is a societal issue. Suicide is a huge contributor to gun deaths. I file that under somebody taking their own life. Sad, yes, but nothing that allows the govt to curtail my rights because joe blow hated himself and was selfish enough to take his own life with a firearm.

Cars kill far more people in this country. The medical industry dwarf guns.