White house ready to drop public option.

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blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Heh, and I thought that the 'public option' alongside private insurance WAS the compromise compared to what many want - a single payer system.
Without the public option, this is more just a tweaking of the current system than any real reform. So, ten years from now we'll probably be bitching about this like its 1993....again.

A "public option" aka welfare is *not* reform. Reform would be regulating health care cost, and bringing drug price negotiation to the table, both of which the Dems are not willing to do. The logic of adding another 15million people to an already bloated and expensive system is absolutely idiotic.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Genx87
btw I love how it is framed at bowing to Republican pressure when it was a top democrat (Kent Conrad) who said the public option was doa and never had a chance from the beginning.
Not Republican pressure, Republican fear mongering. Big difference. The pressure is coming from an inflamed public reacting irrationally to a propaganda campaign about "pulling the plug on Grandma" and similar lies and disinformation. It's the same tactic by the same slime machine that panicked Americans into invading a country that had nothing to do with 9/11.

/thread and hopefully the modern day GOP.

Hopefully the sane ones, an there are a lot of them they just aren't as loud as the wingnuts, can take their party back over and throw the lunatic fringe out to the curb where they belong. Let them start their own party.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
688
126
Originally posted by: ZeGermans

If you are any indication of the typical "liberal stance," THANK GOD he hasn't.

So you got nothing. I posit to you that calling Obama a socialist or communist when the majority of his policies so far have been pretty centrist or giant business payoffs, is basically a method of letting racists irrationally hate Obama and be politically correct about it instead of yelling N1GGER all the time. This is somewhat similar to the "STATES RIGHTS" rallying cry against civil rights.

What do you mean, I have nothing? I stand by what I said -- if by liberal, you mean the stances you typically advocate in these forums, then I am very glad that he has not taken those positions because I don't agree with them. Please don't read anything into what I said -- I meant exactly what I stated, nothing more and nothing less.

I am also not surprised that someone such as yourself would try to twist it to be racially motivated when people call him socialist, etc. Pulling the race card and using that to assign blame when you really have no empirical analysis is really a sign that "you have nothing."
 

ZeGermans

Banned
Dec 14, 2004
907
0
0
Originally posted by: blanghorst
Originally posted by: ZeGermans

If you are any indication of the typical "liberal stance," THANK GOD he hasn't.

So you got nothing. I posit to you that calling Obama a socialist or communist when the majority of his policies so far have been pretty centrist or giant business payoffs, is basically a method of letting racists irrationally hate Obama and be politically correct about it instead of yelling N1GGER all the time. This is somewhat similar to the "STATES RIGHTS" rallying cry against civil rights.

What do you mean, I have nothing? I stand by what I said -- if by liberal, you mean the stances you typically advocate in these forums, then I am very glad that he has not taken those positions because I don't agree with them. Please don't read anything into what I said -- I meant exactly what I stated, nothing more and nothing less.

I am also not surprised that someone such as yourself would try to twist it to be racially motivated when people call him socialist, etc. Pulling the race card and using that to assign blame when you really have no empirical analysis is really a sign that "you have nothing."

I asked what Obama has done that is so super liberal as to make him the MOST LIBERAL PRESIDENT and stuff like that.

Also YOU'RE THE REAL RACIST arguments were used in the state's rights argument as well. Red-Baiting as its called was used against MLK as well.
 

Fingolfin269

Lifer
Feb 28, 2003
17,948
34
91
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Genx87
btw I love how it is framed at bowing to Republican pressure when it was a top democrat (Kent Conrad) who said the public option was doa and never had a chance from the beginning.
Not Republican pressure, Republican fear mongering. Big difference. The pressure is coming from an inflamed public reacting irrationally to a propaganda campaign about "pulling the plug on Grandma" and similar lies and disinformation. It's the same tactic by the same slime machine that panicked Americans into invading a country that had nothing to do with 9/11.

/thread and hopefully the modern day GOP.

Hopefully the sane ones, an there are a lot of them they just aren't as loud as the wingnuts, can take their party back over and throw the lunatic fringe out to the curb where they belong. Let them start their own party.

If the lunatic fringe has the power to smear a campaign to its death then they have a little more power than you hope they have.
 

ZeGermans

Banned
Dec 14, 2004
907
0
0
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Heh, and I thought that the 'public option' alongside private insurance WAS the compromise compared to what many want - a single payer system.
Without the public option, this is more just a tweaking of the current system than any real reform. So, ten years from now we'll probably be bitching about this like its 1993....again.

A "public option" aka welfare is *not* reform. Reform would be regulating health care cost, and bringing drug price negotiation to the table, both of which the Dems are not willing to do. The logic of adding another 15million people to an already bloated and expensive system is absolutely idiotic.

"bloated" means like 3% overhead right? How do you propose regulating health care costs without a public option to keep them honest. What kind of shipping charges would fedex/ups charge if it were not for the totally self-sufficient postal office competing? Who will negotiate drug costs, insurance companies are in bed with drug companies, so a large enough size government entity would be required. Without a public option, no reform will do anything except pad insurance profits even more.
 

ZeGermans

Banned
Dec 14, 2004
907
0
0
Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Genx87
btw I love how it is framed at bowing to Republican pressure when it was a top democrat (Kent Conrad) who said the public option was doa and never had a chance from the beginning.
Not Republican pressure, Republican fear mongering. Big difference. The pressure is coming from an inflamed public reacting irrationally to a propaganda campaign about "pulling the plug on Grandma" and similar lies and disinformation. It's the same tactic by the same slime machine that panicked Americans into invading a country that had nothing to do with 9/11.

/thread and hopefully the modern day GOP.

Hopefully the sane ones, an there are a lot of them they just aren't as loud as the wingnuts, can take their party back over and throw the lunatic fringe out to the curb where they belong. Let them start their own party.

If the lunatic fringe has the power to smear a campaign to its death then they have a little more power than you hope they have.

The swift boaters cost kerry the election. The media gives lunatics so much coverage that it lends them legitimacy.
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,002
115
106
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Heh, and I thought that the 'public option' alongside private insurance WAS the compromise compared to what many want - a single payer system.
Without the public option, this is more just a tweaking of the current system than any real reform. So, ten years from now we'll probably be bitching about this like its 1993....again.

A "public option" aka welfare is *not* reform. Reform would be regulating health care cost, and bringing drug price negotiation to the table, both of which the Dems are not willing to do. The logic of adding another 15million people to an already bloated and expensive system is absolutely idiotic.

It *is* reform, just not reform you agree with. It would be a significant change/shakeup of the current system - so much so that it could change the entire dynamic. I call that reform. It could be for the better or worse depending on how it is set up. You can't even call it welfare necessarily as it could be just government-run through premiums for benefits instead of direct taxation. Welfare is what happens now when people clog up the ER and skip out on the bill...

I will agree that the other things you mention are reform, too....and very much needed. However, I think the point of any successful healthcare reform would be to scrap the current system. Adding more people to the current one without major structural change would be stupid....
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
688
126
Originally posted by: ZeGermans

I asked what Obama has done that is so super liberal as to make him the MOST LIBERAL PRESIDENT and stuff like that.

I didn't say he was the most liberal ever.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Maybe one day people will ask questions like:
Being without healthcare is potentially devastating. What can practically be done to mitigate losing a job and moving to another?

One of the biggest things i hate about the current system is people are tied to jobs they don't like or want because they need health care.

Just stop with your lies. Stop it. You are FREE to get your own health insurance and NOBODY will be denied treatment if they need it.

Stop the disinformation and lies. This thread is also reported to flag@whitehouse.gov.

You'll be single forever.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: ZeGermans

"bloated" means like 3% overhead right?

You have to understand that to some, the word "bloat' doesn't mean things like excessive overhea, it means the public taking care of people at all.

So to them, Medicare doesn't have whatever part of the 3% overhead is 'waste' as 'bloat'; Medicare has 100% bloat, because it's all 'welfare' for the recipients.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Genx87
btw I love how it is framed at bowing to Republican pressure when it was a top democrat (Kent Conrad) who said the public option was doa and never had a chance from the beginning.
Not Republican pressure, Republican fear mongering. Big difference. The pressure is coming from an inflamed public reacting irrationally to a propaganda campaign about "pulling the plug on Grandma" and similar lies and disinformation. It's the same tactic by the same slime machine that panicked Americans into invading a country that had nothing to do with 9/11.

/thread and hopefully the modern day GOP.

Hopefully the sane ones, an there are a lot of them they just aren't as loud as the wingnuts, can take their party back over and throw the lunatic fringe out to the curb where they belong. Let them start their own party.

If the lunatic fringe has the power to smear a campaign to its death then they have a little more power than you hope they have.

it is hilarious to watch the denial of the liberals to believe this was all derailed by a a fringe element of the Republican party.

 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,225
55,768
136
Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
When the Democrats themselves could pass any version of the current proposals without a single Republican vote, why do they continue to blame the Republicans for their own failure to unite and accomplish that task?

Personal responsibility FTW.

Because political parties are not monolithic? This whole 'the democrats can pass anything because there's 60 of them' thing is stupidity. If this were a parliamentary system, that would be correct. Since it's a single member system with people disclosing their general set of principles through only 2 parties that attempt to encompass the entire political spectrum, trying to make this sort of argument is asinine. I'm sure you know this.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: ZeGermans
Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Genx87
btw I love how it is framed at bowing to Republican pressure when it was a top democrat (Kent Conrad) who said the public option was doa and never had a chance from the beginning.
Not Republican pressure, Republican fear mongering. Big difference. The pressure is coming from an inflamed public reacting irrationally to a propaganda campaign about "pulling the plug on Grandma" and similar lies and disinformation. It's the same tactic by the same slime machine that panicked Americans into invading a country that had nothing to do with 9/11.

/thread and hopefully the modern day GOP.

Hopefully the sane ones, an there are a lot of them they just aren't as loud as the wingnuts, can take their party back over and throw the lunatic fringe out to the curb where they belong. Let them start their own party.

If the lunatic fringe has the power to smear a campaign to its death then they have a little more power than you hope they have.

The swift boaters cost kerry the election. The media gives lunatics so much coverage that it lends them legitimacy.

Kerry cost Kerry the election. Just like this plan is horribad cost the public option.
 

TheSkinsFan

Golden Member
May 15, 2009
1,141
0
0
Originally posted by: ZeGermans
Originally posted by: blanghorst
Originally posted by: ZeGermans
Originally posted by: OCguy
http://thehill.com/leading-the...option-2009-08-16.html

President Barack Obama himself on Saturday suggested he won?t insist on a public option.
'The public option, whether we have it or we don?t have it, is not the entirety of healthcare reform," ...



It must really anger some of the more liberal posters here that not even the most liberal president we have had in a long time sees the heathcare issue as they do.

hahaha give one single instance of Obama taking a very liberal stance on ANYTHING.

If you are any indication of the typical "liberal stance," THANK GOD he hasn't.

So you got nothing. I posit to you that calling Obama a socialist or communist when the majority of his policies so have been pretty centrist or giant business payoffs, is basically a method of letting racists irrationally hate Obama and be politically correct about it instead of yelling N1GGER all the time. This is somewhat similar to the "STATES RIGHTS" rallying cry against civil rights.
Wow... how you managed to bring race into a discussion on the degree to which Obama promotes liberal agendas is beyond me. I mean, the race card? WTF?! :confused:

Weak, very weak.

Are you wearing a helmet right now?
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
688
126
Originally posted by: Craig234

Third, what we DO know is that the message includes a request for you not to read or respond to my posts, and that you rudely continue to butt in where not welcome.

This is a public forum. Don't like people responding to your posts? Open your own forum somewhere.

You lie on a regular basis, at least if being reckless in your statements and posting false things as a result can be called lying.

Please provide a link to a thread where I posted something false. Note the "lie" you are claiming is explained below and is, in fact, not a lie.

First, that's a lie on the facts. There are threads where the theme has been to *defend* Bush against a wrong attack; and others where I've criticized a democrat, such as Obama; and others yet that don't involve the parties, but discuss some other issue - perhaps Wall Street, or maybe even history not even involving the US at all.

I stand by my claim, and note I said "it seems," which doesn't make it a statement of fact but merely a perception. Therefore it is not a lie. You are acknowledged by many as perhaps the most partisan poster on these forums and it didn't happen that way by accident.


The fact is you are hgihly deluded and can't tell what an accurate post is, IMO. You simply see Republicans attacked a lot and assume that that means the posts are wrong.

You are the highly deluded one and are now trying to position yourself to blame the Republicans if health care reform (in this case, the bill with a public option) fails to pass and are trying to play semantic games on who is to blame for what.

Your second of two points above is also a lie, insofar as it misrepresents what I said.

You claim that I *only* blame Republicans if health care fails.

First, the topic was not health care failing, but rather the public option failing.

Second, I *repeatedly* said that you can say the Democrats can be clamed for a lack of unity to get it passed.

To quote the first sentence of my earlier post:

In the sense that Democrats can be blamed for not having 100% unity, that's true.

And the last sentence:

Sure, blame the minority of Democrats who vote against the piublic option ...

So, you made the error of not understanding my post and posting a falst response, and a misrepresentation of it.

I did understand your post, but I saw through it. "Oh yeah, blame the Democrats for lack of party unity, BUT..." was the flavor of your post. And of course, the "BUT" part was your characteristic "Aha! The Republicans deserve MORE blame since more of them, as a percentage of their population in Congress, oppose it."


Had you responded to concerns with any effort to resolve them, had you demanded 'proof' earlier, I'd have responded.

Check the dates on the thread and the wording -- none of it was offensive and you had ample time to respond.

But as for lies, you can see above with your misrepresentation of my post, with your false claim about 'every' post of mine only blaming Republicans. But those are minor lies for you - the more typical larger lies can be seen in the preceding post quoted at the top, and you do not deserve any discussion on the matter.

Again, it looks like Craig needs to read up a little on what the word "seems" means. Allow me:

seems: (1) To appear to one's own opinion or mind
(2) To give the impression of being; appear

In other words, use of the word "seems" indicates you are stating something as an impression, not as a fact. Which means it cannot, by definition, be a lie. Oops, wrong again!

By the way, I am still waiting for you to refute/provide more information in the California IOU thread. I suspect you won't because I suspect you were blatantly wrong and you know it.

I don't recall anything you said in that thread, and I'm not interested because of your posting history as discussed. I likely saw your name and did not read it.

If you want to try to turn over a new leaf, send me a PM acknowleding the problem instead of denying it, with a pointer to that thread, and I'll then respond.

SURE you don't remember it. The post where you spoke about the licensing fee suspension being lifted and Gray Davis being booted for it. Of course you conveniently forgot to mention a few key facts. Look it up for yourself. The fact you didn't respond shows your true colors.

So far, this whole exhange - your responding to my post against my request, with misrepresentations, offensive and false attacks - doesn't help your case.

Nor does repeatedly being a partisan hack who posts barely readable posts help yours.


 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: ZeGermans
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Heh, and I thought that the 'public option' alongside private insurance WAS the compromise compared to what many want - a single payer system.
Without the public option, this is more just a tweaking of the current system than any real reform. So, ten years from now we'll probably be bitching about this like its 1993....again.

A "public option" aka welfare is *not* reform. Reform would be regulating health care cost, and bringing drug price negotiation to the table, both of which the Dems are not willing to do. The logic of adding another 15million people to an already bloated and expensive system is absolutely idiotic.

"bloated" means like 3% overhead right? How do you propose regulating health care costs without a public option to keep them honest. What kind of shipping charges would fedex/ups charge if it were not for the totally self-sufficient postal office competing? Who will negotiate drug costs, insurance companies are in bed with drug companies, so a large enough size government entity would be required. Without a public option, no reform will do anything except pad insurance profits even more.

There are admin costs not included in that 3% overhead. This is common knowledge in the industry.

I would like for you to explain (I have an open mind here) how adding 15 million more people, on the taxpayer's dole, while keeping providers and insurance companies in the private sector, will bring down costs and make it more competitive. If you cant provide that, a link to someone who has would be great.
 

ZeGermans

Banned
Dec 14, 2004
907
0
0
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: ZeGermans

"bloated" means like 3% overhead right?

You have to understand that to some, the word "bloat' doesn't mean things like excessive overhea, it means the public taking care of people at all.

So to them, Medicare doesn't have whatever part of the 3% overhead is 'waste' as 'bloat'; Medicare has 100% bloat, because it's all 'welfare' for the recipients.

No company would cover old people. Medicare corrects this.
 

ZeGermans

Banned
Dec 14, 2004
907
0
0
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: ZeGermans
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Heh, and I thought that the 'public option' alongside private insurance WAS the compromise compared to what many want - a single payer system.
Without the public option, this is more just a tweaking of the current system than any real reform. So, ten years from now we'll probably be bitching about this like its 1993....again.

A "public option" aka welfare is *not* reform. Reform would be regulating health care cost, and bringing drug price negotiation to the table, both of which the Dems are not willing to do. The logic of adding another 15million people to an already bloated and expensive system is absolutely idiotic.

"bloated" means like 3% overhead right? How do you propose regulating health care costs without a public option to keep them honest. What kind of shipping charges would fedex/ups charge if it were not for the totally self-sufficient postal office competing? Who will negotiate drug costs, insurance companies are in bed with drug companies, so a large enough size government entity would be required. Without a public option, no reform will do anything except pad insurance profits even more.

There are admin costs not included in that 3% overhead. This is common knowledge in the industry.

I would like for you to explain (I have an open mind here) how adding 15 million more people, on the taxpayer's dole, while keeping providers and insurance companies in the private sector, will bring down costs and make it more competitive. If you cant provide that, a link to someone who has would be great.

It works in every other country. You bring taxes to remotely reasonable level and cut defense spending.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
143
106
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Similar, but different. Its a public option, by the states. Each state is different, but for WA state, for example (where I last used it), eligibility is:


You must be a resident of Washington state;

You must have been rejected for coverage by an insurance carrier based upon the results of the Standard Health Questionnaire, or live in a Washington state county where individual health benefit plans are not offered; and


You must not be eligible for Medicare coverage.

Thats it. So to say people dont have options is a lie, propagated mostly by Democrats. Is everyone 100% covered? Probably not, and NO option will cover that. But its a resource for people in need. Its been around for over a decade.

That's pretty cool. Thanks for the info, I had heard about it but never read anything extensively on it.

 

TheSkinsFan

Golden Member
May 15, 2009
1,141
0
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
When the Democrats themselves could pass any version of the current proposals without a single Republican vote, why do they continue to blame the Republicans for their own failure to unite and accomplish that task?

Personal responsibility FTW.

Because political parties are not monolithic? This whole 'the democrats can pass anything because there's 60 of them' thing is stupidity. If this were a parliamentary system, that would be correct. Since it's a single member system with people disclosing their general set of principles through only 2 parties that attempt to encompass the entire political spectrum, trying to make this sort of argument is asinine. I'm sure you know this.
That's a bullshit excuse for one party not being able to unite as well as the other party is able to do on a regular basis. The Dems are in a better position to run the entire show with little to no interference than either party has been in a long time, yet they can't get their shit together long enough to pass a bill that is likely the most critical element of their supposedly unified platform...?!

Getdafuckouttahere. :roll:
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Heh, and I thought that the 'public option' alongside private insurance WAS the compromise compared to what many want - a single payer system.
Without the public option, this is more just a tweaking of the current system than any real reform. So, ten years from now we'll probably be bitching about this like its 1993....again.

A "public option" aka welfare is *not* reform. Reform would be regulating health care cost, and bringing drug price negotiation to the table, both of which the Dems are not willing to do. The logic of adding another 15million people to an already bloated and expensive system is absolutely idiotic.

It *is* reform, just not reform you agree with. It would be a significant change/shakeup of the current system - so much so that it could change the entire dynamic. I call that reform. It could be for the better or worse depending on how it is set up. You can't even call it welfare necessarily as it could be just government-run through premiums for benefits instead of direct taxation. Welfare is what happens now when people clog up the ER and skip out on the bill...

I will agree that the other things you mention are reform, too....and very much needed. However, I think the point of any successful healthcare reform would be to scrap the current system. Adding more people to the current one without major structural change would be stupid....

Then we'll agree to disagree. You say adding another 15 million people is reform, but then say "Adding more people to the current one without major structural change would be stupid"....no where in the any of the most popular of bills has any structural changes AFAIK. I *do* agree welfare (in part) is when people clog up the ER and skip out on the bill...but its also getting a service from the government that isnt directly paid for, but through public funds.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: ZeGermans

"bloated" means like 3% overhead right?

You have to understand that to some, the word "bloat' doesn't mean things like excessive overhea, it means the public taking care of people at all.

So to them, Medicare doesn't have whatever part of the 3% overhead is 'waste' as 'bloat'; Medicare has 100% bloat, because it's all 'welfare' for the recipients.

Youre an ass. Oh wait nvm. Im not talking to you.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
When the Democrats themselves could pass any version of the current proposals without a single Republican vote, why do they continue to blame the Republicans for their own failure to unite and accomplish that task?

Personal responsibility FTW.

Because political parties are not monolithic? This whole 'the democrats can pass anything because there's 60 of them' thing is stupidity. If this were a parliamentary system, that would be correct. Since it's a single member system with people disclosing their general set of principles through only 2 parties that attempt to encompass the entire political spectrum, trying to make this sort of argument is asinine. I'm sure you know this.

The GOp has done it successfully why cant the Dems?