White House Outs CIA Station Chief

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Odd then that you've produced not a single document suggesting that the president can unilaterally make a document unclassified by making an end run around all of the rules that are in place. Assuming that he is allowed to do this, could you provide a single example of it happening? Just one example of the president declaring something that was Secret or Top Secret is no longer severely or critically damaging to the national security of the country arbitrarily out of the blue.

Uhmm, I supplied the case that says that. You have chosen to ignore it and as I predicted are spending more time arguing about it than it would take to simply educate yourself.

This is not the first time you have desperately tried to avoid learning inconvenient facts.

No, I believe we live in a nation of laws. I also believe that your dogma is fascinating.

Being on the phone is your problem and you made the claim more than a day ago.

I am out of town, I will not be near a computer for several days. Whine more.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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As usual...I appreciate your perspective. Just a couple thoughts...numerous sources indicate that Plame recommended her husband for the Niger mission. Despite what she says, she appears to have recommended him and provided his background information to her superiors to support that choice.

Anyway...since we're trying to get our facts straight...wasn't it Carl Ford from the State Department who wrote the memo that Armitage saw which specifically mentioned Plame's name...not Libby, Rove, or Cheney. Do you believe that Ford was also part of this conspiracy to discredit Joe Wilson as well?

So much more to say...but so little time.
Yes, it was Carl Ford. The 2003 memo not only specifically identifies Valerie Wilson as "a CIA WMD manager, and the wife of Joe Wilson", it also points out that the INR strongly discredited the idea that Wilson could "ferret out" the truth from the Niger government, did not ask Wilson to go, never met with anyone at the CIA prior to the meeting about Wilson going, and never met with Wilson to go over his "findings" afterward.

For those not swimming laps in pools of lefty Kool-Aid, here the redacted memo:
http://www.nysun.com/pics/31062_2.php
http://www.nysun.com/national/no-hint-seen-in-memo-that-plames-role-was-secret/31062/

One attachment to the memo consists of typewritten notes a State Department representative took at a February 19, 2002, meeting where sending Mr. Wilson to Niger was discussed. "Meeting apparently convened by Valerie Wilson, a CIA WMD managerial type and the wife of Amb. Joe Wilson, with the idea that the agency and the larger USG could dispatch Joe to Niger to use his contacts there to sort out the Niger/Iraq uranium sale question," an American diplomat serving as the west and southern Africa division chief in the State Department's intelligence and research bureau, Douglas Rohn, wrote.

Bottom line, this was a CIA ploy to pull in State. In spite of also being anti-war, State said not only no but hell no.

Another interesting tidbit from the Sun article is that another declassified attachment quotes Prime Minister Amadou of Niger as telling embassy officials "that there were buyers like Iraq who would pay more for Niger's uranium than France." It's doubly odd as Iraq already had hundreds of tons of yellowcake and it seems counterproductive for Niger to say this. My guess is that Niger (who were trying to get themselves out from under sanctions at the time) was pointing out that they were intentionally cooperating by selling yellowcake to legitimate sources instead of to sanctioned sources who would pay more. The interesting thing to me is that it would be attached to this memo considering that by mid-2003 the Niger-Iraq agreement had already been judged a forgery and the US government knew that Hussein had hundreds of tons of yellowcake and very limited enrichment capability.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
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Legal definition of "covert agent":

https://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/laws/iipa.html

Again, it's never been clear if she was, in fact, a covert agent. Notice the above legal definition does not including asking the CIA itself what they think.

Fern
You are wrong:
Plame was 'covert' agent at time of name leak

An unclassified summary of outed CIA officer Valerie Plame's employment history at the spy agency, disclosed for the first time today in a court filing by Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald, indicates that Plame was "covert" when her name became public in July 2003.

The summary is part of an attachment to Fitzgerald's memorandum to the court supporting his recommendation that I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Vice President Cheney's former top aide, spend 2-1/2 to 3 years in prison for obstructing the CIA leak investigation.
[ ... ]
The employment history indicates that while she was assigned to CPD, Plame, "engaged in temporary duty travel overseas on official business." The report says, "she traveled at least seven times to more than ten times." When overseas Plame traveled undercover, "sometimes in true name and sometimes in alias -- but always using cover -- whether official or non-official (NOC) -- with no ostensible relationship to the CIA."
Fern, it's time to let that talking point die. Plame was legally covert. Period.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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BTW: Here's the declassified State Dept memo written by Carl Ford:

http://www.nysun.com/pics/31062_2.php

http://www.nysun.com/national/no-hint-seen-in-memo-that-plames-role-was-secret/31062/

Still seems to be a lot conflicting info on the Plame issue.

Fern

Yeh, other than the role that the Bush team played & the truth of Wilson's work for the CIA. That's been well documented.

They shopped around until they found somebody to publicly out Plame in an attempt to discredit Wilson. Libby took the hit to seal off the investigation. The rest is insignificant, distractional horseshit.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
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That's just Fitzgerald's opinion. And a prosecuter's opinion, is just that: An opinion.

(I.e., what's the definition of "serving"? See the statute.)

Fern
That's fine, Fern. Don't let the facts weaken your emotional faith. You believe, and that's all that matters.

:D
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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You're making up stuff again. CIA Chiefs of Station work under official cover. They are openly known to be U.S. government employees. They are publicly identified as a diplomatic official working at the local embassy, usually with some harmless-sounding title like Cultural Attache. (Though in some very friendly countries they may be openly identified.) There is nothing noteworthy about American diplomatic officials visiting American facilities, including air bases.

There is so much disinformation in this thread about Plame, so much unthinking recitation of the BushCo talking points. You guys are Goebbels' wet dream, so easy to manipulate.

Yes, Armitage accidentally disclosed Plame's identity. He was one of only three known leakers, however. The other two were Libby and Rove. Focusing solely on Armitage's role is disingenuous.

Yes, Armitage learned of Plame's identity in a memo. That's where you guys conveniently fail to connect the dots. In your Armitage quote above -- you even helpfully bolded it -- Armitage states, "I have never seen [ a covert operative ] named" in a memo before, not in his 43 years of having a security clearance. In other words, disclosing Plame's identity in this memo was unprecedented. Why?

The inconvenient answer is the Bush administration was actively working to discredit Joe Wilson, and were willing to expose a covert agent to do so. That was the point of the memo, discrediting Wilson. While Armitage's disclosure was an accident, Plame's outing in that memo was not. Nor were the disclosures by Libby and Rove, to other reporters who had greater integrity than Novak. (The CIA tried to get Novak to drop any reference to Wilson's wife, but he refused.)

No, there is no question about whether Plame was legally covert. Both the special prosecutor, Fitzgerald, and the CIA confirmed that her status was classified, and that intentionally disclosing her identity was illegal. Blowing smoke about her desk job, and "everyone knew", and all the other talking points used by BushCo in no way changes this fact. Though she was not then working covertly overseas, she had done so recently enough that her status was still classified.

There is one more huge difference between the Plame outing and the current story. A CIA station chief works openly as a government employee, at an embassy, with diplomatic protection. Plame worked as a NOC, a non-official cover, not as a known government employee. She was known as an employee of the private sector company called Brewster Jennings (IIRC). Exposing Plame didn't just expose her. It also exposed all of her contacts, and every other covert agent using Brewster Jennings as cover. Outing Plame was a malicious act with major consequences.

Finally, here's a quick rebuttal for some of the other BushCo talking points being parroted. Plame did not send Wilson to Niger. She didn't have that authority, nor was she in that role. Also, the CIA was investigating this claim specifically because Cheney asked them to do so. This is what Wilson claimed, not the fabricated "Cheney sent me" talking point floated again in this thread. The whole "sipping tea" talking point came straight from BushCo (i.e., Rove) as part of their smear against Wilson. It's complete crap, something obvious to all but the most loyal RNC hacks.

Re. this story, yes, it's a big screw-up for the Obama administration, no question about it. That Fox and its ilk are spinning it as excusing the Bush administration's malfeasance is shameful.
I did not know that about CIA station chiefs, so okay, I accept that it's done irreparable damage to his career as well as made him a bigger target. That's a damned shame. Hopefully he can be bumped up to an overt position.

The memo was written by Carl Ford of State because Valerie Wilson called a fucking meeting trying to get State on board with sending her husband to "investigate" her claims. On July 6 2003 Cheney is raising hell asking "Who the fuck is Joe Wilson and why is he telling people I sent him to Niger? Was he sent to Niger? Who sent him? Why the fuck wasn't I briefed about it instead of reading about it in the New York Times?"

This memo is Ford's effort at saying "Hey, this isn't State, this is CIA." It explains who Wilson is, who sent him to Niger, and why as well as pointing out that State did not buy in and said it was a waste of time and resources.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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That's fine, Fern. Don't let the facts weaken your emotional faith. You believe, and that's all that matters.

:D
whose identity as such an officer, employee, or member is classified information
I'm not sure if the concept that someone can openly be a CIA analyst or manager while being secretly a CIA covert operative says more about our lefties or about our CIA. Either way it's certainly amusing.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
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I'm not sure if the concept that someone can openly be a CIA analyst or manager while being secretly a CIA covert operative says more about our lefties or about our CIA. Either way it's certainly amusing.
What part of "in the last five years" exceeds your comprehension?
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
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[ ... ]
The memo was written by Carl Ford of State because Valerie Wilson called a fucking meeting trying to get State on board with sending her husband to "investigate" her claims.
That's supposition, self-serving spin of the limited facts available.


On July 6 2003 Cheney is raising hell asking "Who the fuck is Joe Wilson and why is he telling people I sent him to Niger? Was he sent to Niger? Who sent him? Why the fuck wasn't I briefed about it instead of reading about it in the New York Times?"

This memo is Ford's effort at saying "Hey, this isn't State, this is CIA." It explains who Wilson is, who sent him to Niger, and why as well as pointing out that State did not buy in and said it was a waste of time and resources.
OK? Do you have a point? State disagrees with CIA!!! Film at 11:00!

(Oh, and Wilson didn't say Cheney sent him.)
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Personally, I'd like to see someone who believes there was a conspiracy to 'out' Valerie Plame, to articulate what they think happened, exactly who was involved and their rationale for believing this.

Any takers?
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,154
55,704
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I looked days ago and didn't see any evidence of what you claimed.

I've done the heavy lifting that included typing two words, a letter, and a period:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=navy+v.+egan I hope this effort on my part has lifted that barrier for you, friend.

Then, I looked at the decision itself and found you a quote.

The President, after all, is the "Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States." U.S. Const., Art. II, 2. His authority to classify and control access to information bearing on national security and to determine whether an individual is sufficiently trustworthy to occupy a position in the Executive Branch that will give that person access to such information flows primarily from this constitutional investment of power in the President and exists quite apart from any explicit congressional grant.

This doesn't mean that Congress and the courts could never attempt to put limits on presidential classification authority, but so far they haven't done so in any way regarding covert agents. (it also appears that their ability to do so in any case would be fairly limited)

I'm sad for you, I can post links from my phone.

Where did I say that I was unable to post links? I simply dislike wading through PDFs on a tiny screen and figured that an individual as capable as yourself could work it out. I do have a history of overestimating your ability, however, so this may simply be a recurring flaw on my part.

While I'm very happy that you have the ability to post links from your phone, it saddens me that you are apparently unable to conduct simple google searches from a device you have displayed such mastery over. If you would like I am available to google other terms such as "internet job training" and "ITT Tech".

Attempt to shift the burden of proof more.

I was just telling you what was obvious based on simple logic. You then made the extraordinary claim that the President can in effect create a boulder that he can't move. Then of course when asked for even a single shred of support for your position you mysteriously can't find any. Shocker.

As for an example of this occurring, there are many. A few years back when it was revealed that the government was conducting domestic surveillance on US citizens that were not agents of a foreign power, in violation of EO 12333. The DOJ's response to this was:
An executive order cannot limit a President. There is no constitutional requirement for a President to issue a new executive order whenever he wishes to depart from the terms of a previous executive order. Rather than violate an executive order, the President has instead modified or waived it.

So not only can the president depart from the terms of previously written executive orders at will, as in the case of this he doesn't even need to tell anyone he's done so. That Bush violated his own executive orders is widely known and is not even contested by any party. By your logic Bush has violated the law, yet he still walks free and without sanction.

Presumably now that you've been given the constitutional case along with a specific example you will be either admitting to your somewhat faulty understanding of executive orders, or providing some kind of example as I have repeatedly asked for. If you need help using The Google let me know.

Oh who am I kidding. We both know you won't be admitting any such thing.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
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Apparently the same part that exceeded Fitzgerald's comprehension, as he made no attempt to sell such a ludicrous premise to a jury.
Post 104 apparently exceeds your comprehension as well. Get someone to read it to you.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
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Personally, I'd like to see someone who believes there was a conspiracy to 'out' Valerie Plame, to articulate what they think happened, exactly who was involved and their rationale for believing this.

Any takers?

I can't speak for others, but I don't think the goal was outing Plame. The goal was discrediting Wilson. He undermined their anti-Iraq propaganda in a very public and credible way. I suspect Plame was simply acceptable collateral damage.