White House Outs CIA Station Chief

[Thebobo]

At the time the Novak column was published, Plame was "in the process of changing her clandestine status from NOC to official cover, as she prepared for a new job in personnel management".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2053209

Outing the Afghanistan Chief was much more damaging.

WASHINGTON — An unclassified summary of outed CIA officer Valerie Plame's employment history at the spy agency, disclosed for the first time today in a court filing by Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald, indicates that Plame was "covert" when her name became public in July 2003.

 

[Jhhnn]

I hope you're not driving with that brain.

Personal attack as denial, lacking meaningful content entirely.

You already knew that.

In your case, I'm just taking the attitude that if you're stupid enough to believe it then you're too stupid to dream it up yourself. Parroting it as if you really knew what you were talking about is another matter entirely as evidenced by your entire posting history here.

Let's look at what's covert & what isn't, for example. Anybody attached to an Embassy has an official title & role which may or may not be their true function. Those official designations are known to the host government and are used in dealings with other foreign embassies as well. When their true function is not revealed, when they are rather intelligence operatives, they are "covert". Even deeper cover is provided by using front corporations. The exact cover of the CIA station chief is unknown, but he obviously had one. The same was true of Plame at the time she was outed, regardless of the fact that she had been moved to Langley. Just because she went to work for the CIA doesn't mean she always did. People move from job to job all the time. Cover must be maintained, even if it only existed in the past. It's not like foreign intelligence services had the same short memories as American Conservatives.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

From your own link-



Rove escaped indictment only because Fitzgerald insisted on iron clad cases that would be slam dunk convictions when put to a jury. Such was the situation with Libby, who had no viable defense. Others might well have been able to convict Rove had they made the decision to attempt it.

"Cleared" is when you're accused of a crime you couldn't have committed, like a murder in LA that occurred while you were giving a speech in NYC.

The rest? I'm sure that all the possible scenarios were laid out & discussed among the participants well in advance. Letting Libby be frog-marched off to Leavenworth would have been the ultimate betrayal. Being no dummy, he would have reacted appropriately.

Did you read the headline? Or is English your second language? You're pouring meaning into a word that isn't there.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

WASHINGTON — An unclassified summary of outed CIA officer Valerie Plame's employment history at the spy agency, disclosed for the first time today in a court filing by Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald, indicates that Plame was "covert" when her name became public in July 2003.

Link? And does it conflict in any way with what I posted stating that she was in the process of going into a paper pusher job? And lastly...why is it important to you that she was "covert"?

 

[kage69]

We honestly believe that outing the station chief was an accident - just as was Plame's "outing" by Armitage.

Of course you do. You think Cheney is "awesome." Why would you interpret this any other way?

I think there may be more similarity than is visible at first blush. Plame was openly working in CIA headquarters and many, many people knew it - not exactly the way to remain a covert asset.

The only similarities that I care about are the ones relating to motive and causation. I'll defer to Langley on what and whom they consider covert. You do realize Plame wasn't just commented on by the CIA after the fact, right? The CIA requested an investigation into who outed their covert agent, an agent deemed covert at the time of the leak.

This guy was meeting with the freakin' President in Afghanistan - how covert can he possibly be?

You act like Heads of State don't get to enjoy privacy. As such a fan of Cheney, stalwart champion of executive privilege, I'm surprised to hear you lament that. I think you should just rest assured that the concern for a station chief in a theater of war is going to be greater than that of the people who attend Energy Task Force meetings at the White House. I don't recall those identities ever coming to light, do you?

Granted, probably comparatively few people in Afghanistan knew he was the CIA station chief, but if he's meeting with the President of the United States in a war zone, clearly anyone with whom he later meets is going to be investigated, period, by anyone attempting to identify our field agents.

You act like it's no big deal to observe what happens in restricted areas of gigantic US bases. You know these briefings aren't exactly televised, right? I think you'd be surprised on how much privacy can be assured when you have your own runway, hanger, protection detail convoy, and private entrances to embassies and host nation complexes.

To be covert, one needs no apparent contacts with the US government.

Ideal, but not a golden rule, particularly in this age of outsourcing and privatization. Cover is cover, and sometimes your job is to spy on your friends more than your enemies.

 

[kage69]

Link? And does it conflict in any way with what I posted stating that she was in the process of going into a paper pusher job? And lastly...why is it important to you that she was "covert"?

You mean other than it being a treasonous felony to knowingly compromise a covert agents cover?


You guys just keep maintaining this delusion that this was and is only about Valerie Plame. I can guarantee you useful assets and resources are gone forever, one way or another, thanks to Cheney and Rove wanting to send a shot across someone's bow. Not like we could have used them or anything. Everything's swell with Iran these days, and ISI are some of my favorite people on the planet. That Hamid Gul fella, helluva guy I tell you hwat.

*sigh*

 

[kage69]

Hrmmm

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/05/28/white-house-probes-outing-of-cia-official.html

" The list of 15 names apparently came first from the military, and was circulated by the White House press office.

The list then went to a much wider audience when it was included as part of what's known as a "pool report," which in this case was filed by The Washington Post's Scott Wilson.

It was only after Wilson raised the issue with the White House, according to the Post, that officials sought to circulate a new list without the officer's name. But by that point, the mistake already had been noted on Twitter.

As the White House looks into what went wrong, it is taking heavy criticism for the mistake.

"There's simply no excuse for it," John Bolton, former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, told Fox News on Tuesday, saying the blunder left him "speechless."


Not that I automatically approve of anything that makes that blowhard brat go quiet, I agree, but still - lol at Newscorp for cutting to John Bolton for first take on something right!? Some neophyte trusted what they were given, and the mistake made it out the door without being noticed. Fucking fail all around.

 

[werepossum]

Of course you do. You think Cheney is "awesome." Why would you interpret this any other way?

The only similarities that I care about are the ones relating to motive and causation. I'll defer to Langley on what and whom they consider covert. You do realize Plame wasn't just commented on by the CIA after the fact, right? The CIA requested an investigation into who outed their covert agent, an agent deemed covert at the time of the leak.

You act like Heads of State don't get to enjoy privacy. As such a fan of Cheney, stalwart champion of executive privilege, I'm surprised to hear you lament that. I think you should just rest assured that the concern for a station chief in a theater of war is going to be greater than that of the people who attend Energy Task Force meetings at the White House. I don't recall those identities ever coming to light, do you?

You act like it's no big deal to observe what happens in restricted areas of gigantic US bases. You know these briefings aren't exactly televised, right? I think you'd be surprised on how much privacy can be assured when you have your own runway, hanger, protection detail convoy, and private entrances to embassies and host nation complexes.

Ideal, but not a golden rule, particularly in this age of outsourcing and privatization. Cover is cover, and sometimes your job is to spy on your friends more than your enemies.

In America, some privacy can be arranged. In Afghanistan, not so much. Obviously covert assets cannot come and go from US air bases as any association with the US marks one for death among Afghan terrorists, and any travel to and from US air bases is clearly going to be observed. This goes double for periods when the President is there, as anyone with less than full trust isn't going to be coming there except by invitation. Um - you DO understand that you're arguing the Obama leak is more damaging than I'm assuming, right?

Plame was outed by Armitage, an anti-war career State Department employee. If you wish to see Cheney behind this and indeed pretty much everything else, it's a free country.

Armitage on Armitage: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0711/11/le.01.html

BLITZER: You will hear it. I want you to listen to what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VALERIE PLAME WILSON, AUTHOR, "FAIR GAME": Mr. Armitage did a very foolish thing. He has been around Washington for decades. He should know better. He's a senior government official. Whether he knew where exactly I worked in the CIA, he had no rights to go talking to a reporter about where I worked. That was strictly off-limits.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Those are strong words from Valerie Plame Wilson.

ARMITAGE: They're not words on which I disagree. I think it was extraordinarily foolish of me. There was no ill-intent on my part and I had never seen ever, in 43 years of having a security clearance, a covert operative's name in a memo. The only reason I knew a "Mrs. Wilson," not "Mrs. Plame," worked at the agency was because I saw it in a memo. But I don't disagree with her words to a large measure.

BLITZER: Normally in memos they don't name covert operatives?

ARMITAGE: I have never seen one named.

BLITZER: And so you assumed she was, what, just an analyst over at the CIA?

ARMITAGE: Not only assumed it, that's what the message said, that she was publicly chairing a meeting.

BLITZER: So, when you told Robert Novak that Joe Wilson, the former U.S. ambassador's wife, worked at the CIA, and she was involved somehow in getting him this trip to Africa to look for the enriched uranium, if there were enriched uranium going to Iraq, you simply assumed that she was not a clandestine officer of the CIA.

ARMITAGE: Well, even Mr. Novak has said that he used the word "operative" and misused it. No one ever said "operative." And I not only assumed it, as I say, I've never seen a covered agent's name in a memo. However, that doesn't take away from what Mrs. Plame said, it was foolish, yeah. Sure it was.

BLITZER: So you agree with her on that. ARMITAGE: Yeah. Absolutely.

BLITZER: Richard Armitage, thanks very much for coming in.

Thank you. Good to see you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

If you believe that one can freely move from publicly named CIA analyst to CIA covert operative, then sending her husband for "independent verification" probably makes sense to you as well - as long as Cheney is behind it. Hell, he's probably a secret agent too. Bet they have spy kids and the whole family spent their time saving the world - until defeated by evil arch villain Dick Cheney.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

You mean other than it being a treasonous felony to knowingly compromise a covert agents cover?


You guys just keep maintaining this delusion that this was and is only about Valerie Plame. I can guarantee you useful assets and resources are gone forever, one way or another, thanks to Cheney and Rove wanting to send a shot across someone's bow. Not like we could have used them or anything. Everything's swell with Iran these days, and ISI are some of my favorite people on the planet. That Hamid Gul fella, helluva guy I tell you hwat.

*sigh*

Answer the questions please instead of diverting. Is reasonable conversation really that difficult for you?

 

[Jhhnn]

In America, some privacy can be arranged. In Afghanistan, not so much. Obviously covert assets cannot come and go from US air bases as any association with the US marks one for death among Afghan terrorists, and any travel to and from US air bases is clearly going to be observed. This goes double for periods when the President is there, as anyone with less than full trust isn't going to be coming there except by invitation. Um - you DO understand that you're arguing the Obama leak is more damaging than I'm assuming, right?

Lots of assumptions. First off, Kabul is a big place, ~3M people. So is the nearby AFB, with various vehicles streaming in & out on a daily basis, often with darkened windows, making identification of the occupants impossible. Furthermore, there are thousands of non-military non-intelligence Americans in Afghanistan in various support roles & purely business roles as well. Merely entering the base does not make one a high value target. It seems likely that the CIA station chief did so on multiple occasions. OTOH, publically attaching his name to his true role is a security breach of a different dimension entirely, potentially useful not just to the Taliban but to other intelligence services as well.

Plame was outed by Armitage, an anti-war career State Department employee. If you wish to see Cheney behind this and indeed pretty much everything else, it's a free country.

Armitage on Armitage: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0711/11/le.01.html

We have no way to judge the veracity of his statements. All he offers are vague references to a memo w/ an unknown level of classification & his claim that Plame was "publically" chairing a meeting. None of that can be verified in the slightest. He could just as easily have been repeating rumor from the Washington cocktail circuit. It's impossible to tell.

In any case, mistakenly leaking information to a journalist is not "Public Outing". For that, a professional like Novak needs multiple sources, and he got what he needed from the White House, from Rove. That's by his own admission, verified by Rove and by Grand Jury transcripts. Those same transcripts & also interviews reveal that the Bush team basically shopped journalists who might do an actual public outing.

If you believe that one can freely move from publicly named CIA analyst to CIA covert operative, then sending her husband for "independent verification" probably makes sense to you as well - as long as Cheney is behind it. Hell, he's probably a secret agent too. Bet they have spy kids and the whole family spent their time saving the world - until defeated by evil arch villain Dick Cheney.

Even if what Armitage claims is true, that does not mean the alleged memo was public at all, nor does it mean that her chairing a meeting was public knowledge, either. Armitage obviously receives lots of memos with various degrees of classification. Funny how Repub lawmakers at the time didn't pursue this information with the same zeal they display over Benghazi, huh? Where's the memo?

All of it afterwards was orchestrated in a campaign to discredit Wilson on the basis of nepotism which you repeat as if it were fact. Nevermind that the CIA & all the parties involved deny that as the basis for his selection. It must be true because you want it to be true & because it's the only way his credibility can be questioned, right?

When it was all said & done, it turns out that Wilson's assessment was correct, despite efforts to slime him. That's just the truth. When the truth turns out to be contrary to what you believe, what's the answer? Change your mind, or just believe harder & deeper?

I think you already answered that question.

 

[Bowfinger]

In America, some privacy can be arranged. In Afghanistan, not so much. Obviously covert assets cannot come and go from US air bases as any association with the US marks one for death among Afghan terrorists, and any travel to and from US air bases is clearly going to be observed. This goes double for periods when the President is there, as anyone with less than full trust isn't going to be coming there except by invitation. Um - you DO understand that you're arguing the Obama leak is more damaging than I'm assuming, right?

You're making up stuff again. CIA Chiefs of Station work under official cover. They are openly known to be U.S. government employees. They are publicly identified as a diplomatic official working at the local embassy, usually with some harmless-sounding title like Cultural Attache. (Though in some very friendly countries they may be openly identified.) There is nothing noteworthy about American diplomatic officials visiting American facilities, including air bases.

Plame was outed by Armitage, an anti-war career State Department employee. If you wish to see Cheney behind this and indeed pretty much everything else, it's a free country.

Armitage on Armitage: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0711/11/le.01.html

If you believe that one can freely move from publicly named CIA analyst to CIA covert operative, then sending her husband for "independent verification" probably makes sense to you as well - as long as Cheney is behind it. Hell, he's probably a secret agent too. Bet they have spy kids and the whole family spent their time saving the world - until defeated by evil arch villain Dick Cheney.

There is so much disinformation in this thread about Plame, so much unthinking recitation of the BushCo talking points. You guys are Goebbels' wet dream, so easy to manipulate.

Yes, Armitage accidentally disclosed Plame's identity. He was one of only three known leakers, however. The other two were Libby and Rove. Focusing solely on Armitage's role is disingenuous.

Yes, Armitage learned of Plame's identity in a memo. That's where you guys conveniently fail to connect the dots. In your Armitage quote above -- you even helpfully bolded it -- Armitage states, "I have never seen [ a covert operative ] named" in a memo before, not in his 43 years of having a security clearance. In other words, disclosing Plame's identity in this memo was unprecedented. Why?

The inconvenient answer is the Bush administration was actively working to discredit Joe Wilson, and were willing to expose a covert agent to do so. That was the point of the memo, discrediting Wilson. While Armitage's disclosure was an accident, Plame's outing in that memo was not. Nor were the disclosures by Libby and Rove, to other reporters who had greater integrity than Novak. (The CIA tried to get Novak to drop any reference to Wilson's wife, but he refused.)

No, there is no question about whether Plame was legally covert. Both the special prosecutor, Fitzgerald, and the CIA confirmed that her status was classified, and that intentionally disclosing her identity was illegal. Blowing smoke about her desk job, and "everyone knew", and all the other talking points used by BushCo in no way changes this fact. Though she was not then working covertly overseas, she had done so recently enough that her status was still classified.

There is one more huge difference between the Plame outing and the current story. A CIA station chief works openly as a government employee, at an embassy, with diplomatic protection. Plame worked as a NOC, a non-official cover, not as a known government employee. She was known as an employee of the private sector company called Brewster Jennings (IIRC). Exposing Plame didn't just expose her. It also exposed all of her contacts, and every other covert agent using Brewster Jennings as cover. Outing Plame was a malicious act with major consequences.

Finally, here's a quick rebuttal for some of the other BushCo talking points being parroted. Plame did not send Wilson to Niger. She didn't have that authority, nor was she in that role. Also, the CIA was investigating this claim specifically because Cheney asked them to do so. This is what Wilson claimed, not the fabricated "Cheney sent me" talking point floated again in this thread. The whole "sipping tea" talking point came straight from BushCo (i.e., Rove) as part of their smear against Wilson. It's complete crap, something obvious to all but the most loyal RNC hacks.

Re. this story, yes, it's a big screw-up for the Obama administration, no question about it. That Fox and its ilk are spinning it as excusing the Bush administration's malfeasance is shameful.

 

[unokitty]

So the White House spin on this is that when the Bush White House was involved in outing a CIA agent working in Washington DC, it was a mendacious thing to do...

When the Obama White House outed the CIA Station Chief working in Afghanistan, it was just incompetence.

The White House does have a point. Compared to the situation in Libya, the red line in Syria, the NSA tapping the German Chancellor’s phone, the Russian's in Crimea, outing the CIA station chief doesn't seem that big of a deal.

Or, to paraphrase his former Secretary of State "What difference does his incompetence make?"

Uno

 

[Jhhnn]

So the White House spin on this is that when the Bush White House was involved in outing a CIA agent working in Washington DC, it was a mendacious thing to do...

Uh, no. The determinations were made by Fitzgerald, a grand jury, the trial & conviction of Libby. That was long before Obama took office. But revisionist history is necessary for denial on your part, so you'll try to get around the facts.

When the Obama White House outed the CIA Station Chief working in Afghanistan, it was just incompetence.

The White House does have a point. Compared to the situation in Libya, the red line in Syria, the NSA tapping the German Chancellor’s phone, the Russian's in Crimea, outing the CIA station chief doesn't seem that big of a deal.

Or, to paraphrase his former Secretary of State "What difference does his incompetence make?"

Uno

Having the station chief's name in the memo was obviously a mistake. It's utterly unreasonable to ascribe any other motive. There is no evidence for making claims to the contrary, unlike wrt the Plame affair, where there was an abundance of it.

While it's bad for him & for his career, it's certainly not the end of the world in terms of national security. Nor was the Plame affair, other than revealing the depths of depravity & reckless disregard for national security & the law among the Bush team.

They invaded another country on pretenses they knew to be false, causing the death of 4400 Americans & tens of thousands of Iraqis, not to mention serious injury & mutilation to many, many more. They borrowed & spent ~$1T to do it, and created the need to keep spending on wounded veterans as well. It was so important to them to conceal the truth of that at the time that no sleazy trick was too low for them to use it in defense of their lies.

They also created a quagmire in Afghanistan at the same time through inattention, arrogant strategy & diversion of resources to the real prize, Iraq.

None of which really penetrates the minds of well indoctrinated True Believers whose world would collapse if they accepted the truth. The Bush Admin was led by warmongering scum & the financial lootocracy. The sooner that's accepted, the sooner we can move on to more productive things.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

You're making up stuff again. CIA Chiefs of Station work under official cover. They are openly known to be U.S. government employees. They are publicly identified as a diplomatic official working at the local embassy, usually with some harmless-sounding title like Cultural Attache. (Though in some very friendly countries they may be openly identified.) There is nothing noteworthy about American diplomatic officials visiting American facilities, including air bases.



There is so much disinformation in this thread about Plame, so much unthinking recitation of the BushCo talking points. You guys are Goebbels' wet dream, so easy to manipulate.

Yes, Armitage accidentally disclosed Plame's identity. He was one of only three known leakers, however. The other two were Libby and Rove. Focusing solely on Armitage's role is disingenuous.

Yes, Armitage learned of Plame's identity in a memo. That's where you guys conveniently fail to connect the dots. In your Armitage quote above -- you even helpfully bolded it -- Armitage states, "I have never seen [ a covert operative ] named" in a memo before, not in his 43 years of having a security clearance. In other words, disclosing Plame's identity in this memo was unprecedented. Why?

The inconvenient answer is the Bush administration was actively working to discredit Joe Wilson, and were willing to expose a covert agent to do so. That was the point of the memo, discrediting Wilson. While Armitage's disclosure was an accident, Plame's outing in that memo was not. Nor were the disclosures by Libby and Rove, to other reporters who had greater integrity than Novak. (The CIA tried to get Novak to drop any reference to Wilson's wife, but he refused.)

No, there is no question about whether Plame was legally covert. Both the special prosecutor, Fitzgerald, and the CIA confirmed that her status was classified, and that intentionally disclosing her identity was illegal. Blowing smoke about her desk job, and "everyone knew", and all the other talking points used by BushCo in no way changes this fact. Though she was not then working covertly overseas, she had done so recently enough that her status was still classified.

There is one more huge difference between the Plame outing and the current story. A CIA station chief works openly as a government employee, at an embassy, with diplomatic protection. Plame worked as a NOC, a non-official cover, not as a known government employee. She was known as an employee of the private sector company called Brewster Jennings (IIRC). Exposing Plame didn't just expose her. It also exposed all of her contacts, and every other covert agent using Brewster Jennings as cover. Outing Plame was a malicious act with major consequences.

Finally, here's a quick rebuttal for some of the other BushCo talking points being parroted. Plame did not send Wilson to Niger. She didn't have that authority, nor was she in that role. Also, the CIA was investigating this claim specifically because Cheney asked them to do so. This is what Wilson claimed, not the fabricated "Cheney sent me" talking point floated again in this thread. The whole "sipping tea" talking point came straight from BushCo (i.e., Rove) as part of their smear against Wilson. It's complete crap, something obvious to all but the most loyal RNC hacks.

Re. this story, yes, it's a big screw-up for the Obama administration, no question about it. That Fox and its ilk are spinning it as excusing the Bush administration's malfeasance is shameful.

As usual...I appreciate your perspective. Just a couple thoughts...numerous sources indicate that Plame recommended her husband for the Niger mission. Despite what she says, she appears to have recommended him and provided his background information to her superiors to support that choice.

Anyway...since we're trying to get our facts straight...wasn't it Carl Ford from the State Department who wrote the memo that Armitage saw which specifically mentioned Plame's name...not Libby, Rove, or Cheney. Do you believe that Ford was also part of this conspiracy to discredit Joe Wilson as well?

So much more to say...but so little time.

 

[fskimospy]

Why is this plame nonsense still under discussion. It seems that many more people than Libby had possibly committed felonies, but due to all the felonies that Libby committed we will never know. End of story.

That's why people are mad about one and not the other. All the many felonies.

 

[Jhhnn]

As usual...I appreciate your perspective. Just a couple thoughts...numerous sources indicate that Plame recommended her husband for the Niger mission. Despite what she says, she appears to have recommended him and provided his background information to her superiors to support that choice.

Anyway...since we're trying to get our facts straight...wasn't it Carl Ford from the State Department who wrote the memo that Armitage saw which specifically mentioned Plame's name...not Libby, Rove, or Cheney. Do you believe that Ford was also part of this conspiracy to discredit Joe Wilson as well?

So much more to say...but so little time.

Numerous sources with axes to grind have claimed a lot of things about it, put enormous spin on it too, contrary to what those actually involved have claimed. Who you gonna trust- Plame & her superiors, or Faux News & sycophants?

Why does that even matter given that what Wilson said is the truth?

Is it not the truth?

Why does any of that matter in the face of Scooter Libby being convicted of lying to a grand jury to protect his superiors & seal off the investigation? Why was his sentence commuted?

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Numerous sources with axes to grind have claimed a lot of things about it, put enormous spin on it too, contrary to what those actually involved have claimed. Who you gonna trust- Plame & her superiors, or Faux News & sycophants?

Why does that even matter given that what Wilson said is the truth?

Is it not the truth?

There were a lot of people with axes to grind....including Plame and Wilson. Does "Faux News & sycophants" include the Washington Post, LA Times, Time, WSJ, and New York Times all with sources contradicting Plames claim that she didn't recommend her husband for the Niger mission? On 2/12/02 "Vice President Cheney reads a DIA report on alleged Niger-Iraq uranium sale and asks for the CIA’s analysis". On the same day "Valerie Plame, a C.I.A. employee working in its Counterproliferation Division, sends a memo to the deputy chief of the C.I.A.'s Directorate of Operations stating that her husband has good contact with the former Prime Minister and Director of Mines in Niger as well as other contacts who might prove useful in shedding light on the supposed Niger-Iraq uranium contract." Then we have a State Department analyst who attended the 2/19/02 meeting (where the CIA decided to dispatch Wilson to Africa) who kept his notes from that session which indicate that Wilson's wife had indeed suggested sending Wilson. Based on the evidence...it's hard to trust Plame since she blatantly lied when she said she never recommended her husband.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plame_affair_timeline
"I did not recommend him. I did not suggest him. There was no nepotism involved."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerie_Plame

Why does any of that matter in the face of Scooter Libby being convicted of lying to a grand jury to protect his superiors & seal off the investigation? Why was his sentence commuted?

Who was he protecting...Cheney? Libby told the Grand Jury everything Cheney had told him about Plame. And please tell me exactly how he single-handedly sealed off the investigation?

And lastly, please tell me if you believe that Carl Ford was also part of this WH conspiracy to discredit Joe Wilson?

 

[Bowfinger]

As usual...I appreciate your perspective. Just a couple thoughts...numerous sources indicate that Plame recommended her husband for the Niger mission. Despite what she says, she appears to have recommended him and provided his background information to her superiors to support that choice.

If memory serves, this was never definitively answered. Plame's version was that she was approached to see if her husband would do it. (Reportedly they had worked with Wilson in the past.) She agreed to act as the liaison and prepared a memo or presentation describing his qualifications. That may be why others think she suggested Wilson, or she may have conveniently "forgotten" the actual order of events (i.e., she lied). I don't know.

The point is that Plame did NOT send Wilson, as was so consistently claimed by the Bush team. She did not have the authority to do so, nor was that her role within the agency.

Anyway...since we're trying to get our facts straight...wasn't it Carl Ford from the State Department who wrote the memo that Armitage saw which specifically mentioned Plame's name...not Libby, Rove, or Cheney. Do you believe that Ford was also part of this conspiracy to discredit Joe Wilson as well?

So much more to say...but so little time.

I am not familiar with Ford at all. I don't dispute it, I simply don't know. It doesn't ring a bell. If Ford was the author, the questions would be why did he write it, who asked him to do so, and what direction was he given? Again, I don't know, or at least don't remember anything about him.

 

[Thebobo]

Link? And does it conflict in any way with what I posted stating that she was in the process of going into a paper pusher job? And lastly...why is it important to you that she was "covert"?

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/18924679/

WASHINGTON — An unclassified summary of outed CIA officer Valerie Plame's employment history at the spy agency, disclosed for the first time today in a court filing by Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald, indicates that Plame was "covert" when her name became public in July 2003.

The CIA determined, "that the public interest in allowing the criminal prosecution to proceed outweighed the damage to national security that might reasonably be expected from the official disclosure of Ms. Wilson's employment and cover status."

The CIA has not divulged any other details of the nature of Plame's cover or the methods employed by the CIA to protect her cover nor the details of her classified intelligence activities. Plame resigned from the CIA in December 2005.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/18924679/

WASHINGTON — An unclassified summary of outed CIA officer Valerie Plame's employment history at the spy agency, disclosed for the first time today in a court filing by Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald, indicates that Plame was "covert" when her name became public in July 2003.

The CIA determined, "that the public interest in allowing the criminal prosecution to proceed outweighed the damage to national security that might reasonably be expected from the official disclosure of Ms. Wilson's employment and cover status."

The CIA has not divulged any other details of the nature of Plame's cover or the methods employed by the CIA to protect her cover nor the details of her classified intelligence activities. Plame resigned from the CIA in December 2005.

I never said that she wasn't considered covert at the time of the leak. I said she was in the process of changing status from NOC to official cover at the time the leak occurred. The item you linked does not in any way contradict what I said...so why did you bother posting it? Did you not understand what I said?

 

[Thebobo]

I never said that she wasn't considered covert at the time of the leak. I said she was in the process of changing status from NOC to official cover at the time the leak occurred. The item you linked does not in any way contradict what I said...so why did you bother posting it? Did you not understand what I said?

"I said she was in the process of changing status from NOC to official cover at the time the leak"

Thats just not true she was covert AT the time. Thats all that matters. Your statement wants it both ways, you imply there is some gray area, and my link says in all that matters, it doesn't.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

If memory serves, this was never definitively answered. Plame's version was that she was approached to see if her husband would do it. (Reportedly they had worked with Wilson in the past.) She agreed to act as the liaison and prepared a memo or presentation describing his qualifications. That may be why others think she suggested Wilson, or she may have conveniently "forgotten" the actual order of events (i.e., she lied). I don't know.

The point is that Plame did NOT send Wilson, as was so consistently claimed by the Bush team. She did not have the authority to do so, nor was that her role within the agency.

And my point is that she blatantly lied about her involvement. I provided the Wikipedia links which clearly exposed her lie in a previous post. In fact, her book states that her husband was "too upset to listen" to her explanations after learning years later about the 2/12/02 email she had sent up the chain of command outlining his credentials.

I am not familiar with Ford at all. I don't dispute it, I simply don't know. It doesn't ring a bell. If Ford was the author, the questions would be why did he write it, who asked him to do so, and what direction was he given? Again, I don't know, or at least don't remember anything about him.

Ford wrote the memo that exposed Plame's name which you previously referred to where Armitage stated, "I have never seen [ a covert operative ] named" in a memo before, not in his 43 years of having a security clearance. It wasn't Cheney, Rove or Libby who wrote that memo. That's why I asked you if you thought Carl Ford was also part of the elaborate WH conspiracy to out Plame as punishment for Wilson's hit piece.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

"I said she was in the process of changing status from NOC to official cover at the time the leak"

Thats just not true she was covert AT the time. Thats all that matters. Your statement wants it both ways, you imply there is some gray area, and my link says in all that matters, it doesn't.

Holy cow. I never said she wasn't covert AT the time...I said she was in the process of changing her status from NOC (i.e. "covert") to official cover at the time the leak. You seem to be confused or something. Hitting the bong a little early today?

I stated a fact and I struggle to understand why this fact bothers you so much.

 

[Knowing]

Interesting that you think that me asking you to back up your bullshit statement is shifting the burden of proof. My point is self evident: an individual is not bound by orders whose SOLE source of authority is that same individual. This is basic logic. The president is the source of all classification authority. End of story.

Odd then that you've produced not a single document suggesting that the president can unilaterally make a document unclassified by making an end run around all of the rules that are in place. Assuming that he is allowed to do this, could you provide a single example of it happening? Just one example of the president declaring something that was Secret or Top Secret is no longer severely or critically damaging to the national security of the country arbitrarily out of the blue.

You appear to believe that the president can create rules for himself that he cannot break.

No, I believe we live in a nation of laws. I also believe that your dogma is fascinating.

The decision is available online and I'm on a phone. Is this going to be another one of those threads where you argue for pages and pages that you don't have time to look something up, spending vastly more time arguing than it would take to do it?

Being on the phone is your problem and you made the claim more than a day ago.

 

[Fern]

Legal definition of "covert agent":

4) The term "covert agent" means-

(A) a present or retired officer or employee of an intelligence agency or a present or retired member of the Armed Forces assigned to duty with an intelligence agency-

(i) whose identity as such an officer, employee, or member is classified information, and

(ii) who is serving outside the United States or has within the last five years served outside the United States; or

(B) a United States citizen whose intelligence relationship to the United States is classified information, and-

(i) who resides and acts outside the United States as an agent of, or informant or source of operational assistance to, an intelligence agency, or

(ii) who is at the time of the disclosure acting as an agent of, or informant to, the foreign counterintelligence or foreign counterterrorism components of the Federal Bureau of Investigation; or

(C) an individual, other than a United States citizen, whose past or present intelligence relationship to the United States is classified information and who is a present or former agent of, or a present or former informant or source of operational assistance to, an intelligence agency.

https://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/laws/iipa.html

Again, it's never been clear if she was, in fact, a covert agent. Notice the above legal definition does not including asking the CIA itself what they think.

Fern