Which will happen first, the Republicans destroy the rule of law or the rule of law will destroy ...

[cytg111]

I wouldn't pin any hopes on the Mueller investigation. It's by necessity, turned into a CYA efwfort. Mueller is not just dirty, he's a vengeful, spiteful, ideologue. He's been exposed as such and as his investigation proceeded the ruling party was at work too and has found out about a cadre of political operatives both inside and outside of the intelligence community who conspired to put Hillary in office. It remains to be seen how many if any are charged. I am a realist and don't expect any to face any consequences.

I know that the media fills the heads of the left day after day with all kinds of hopes. Russia, Russia, Russia, Stormy, Stormy, Stormy and that it's all gobbled up and turned into manifestations of the restoration of socialist dreams. You're being played. You have a President. You don't like him just like the right didn't like the last one. That how life works. Nobody wins all the time. Nothing Mueller is doing is going to restore the significant inroads eight years of 0bama made towards the fundamental transformation of the United States of America. You're going to have to start over and do it through the election process or by force.

Get prepared. Whether that's physically or mentally or both. The investigation is done and over with. It's dead. The best you can hope for is a few very minor players getting slapped around and maybe not even that. We just learned this morning that Mueller indicted a company that wasn't even in existence during the time period that he alleges they committed wrongdoings. Smart guy? If he can manage to save face while not getting indicted himself I will say yes. Right now, not so much. He has exposed dirty leftist dealings while uncovering nothing of substance on his enemies. That's called a backfire.

Whomever filled your leftist head with the notion that you are morally superior, that you are intelligent beyond the comprehension of most did you an extreme disservice. Umpteen posts a day here where the leftist hoard runs hither and yon in response to what the media is lying about at the given moment tell that tale.

Most days I laugh. Some days I shake my head in disgust at how effectively our educational system has turned out the dumbest people who are convinced they're the smartest. Please, try to come to grips with the fact that you lost an election. Would it help to know you're not the first one's to do so? If that came as a shock to you, well...

Shocking.
When the rule of law falls it is the land of the strong. Boomerang, do you feel strong? Cause you sound like someone I might be eating when the zombie apocalypse sets in

 

[Jhhnn]

The problem is

I don't know. I don't go to facebook for my political information. I don't use facebook at all because when I did it didn't improve my life. As far as the Russians knowing Trump would be bad for the country, that's utter nonsense. Trump has done several things I disagree with, he's also done a few things that I think needed to be done. Despite the never ending cry's from the left, he's not a complete failure. That pretty well describes most presidents.
The rest of it I've tuned out to some extant. The never ending speculation presented as fact has worn me down. The absolute giddy reporting of every questionable activity of people Trump knows, and the following speculation of when Trump will be arrested for what they've done has left me near uncaring.
The ongoing investigations will someday conclude, the evidence will be presented and Trump will either be exonerated or impeached. I'll accept either outcome. I have to, because if the system doesn't work then we're all well and truly fucked. That's the point at which we enter armed insurrection, something I'd rather not contemplate.
So yes, until there is actual evidence and hearings with cross examination, I'll keep my head in the sand.

Except... You really do know. You just can't admit it. The Russians demonstrably backed Trump through a variety of covert means. It's psychological warfare. It's not for the MAGA but rather the opposite. Any candid, informed & objective observer would tell you that.

No complicity is required for that to be true.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

No complicity is required for that to be true.

Doesn't matter really. It's not likely that there will be criminal prosecutions of Trump after he's removed. He'll get away with everything and let future politicians that one can indeed get away with anything. The worst case is getting paid by those he or she benefitted while in office and the partisans will justify it. "Oh we have so much to undo that we can't spend time on following up on this, it doesn't matter" or "Can you imagine what the Republicans would say if Trump was prosecuted"?


That's now how I think this is going to end.

 

[Moonbeam]

I wouldn't pin any hopes on the Mueller investigation. It's by necessity, turned into a CYA effort. Mueller is not just dirty, he's a vengeful, spiteful, ideologue. He's been exposed as such and as his investigation proceeded the ruling party was at work too and has found out about a cadre of political operatives both inside and outside of the intelligence community who conspired to put Hillary in office. It remains to be seen how many if any are charged. I am a realist and don't expect any to face any consequences.

I know that the media fills the heads of the left day after day with all kinds of hopes. Russia, Russia, Russia, Stormy, Stormy, Stormy and that it's all gobbled up and turned into manifestations of the restoration of socialist dreams. You're being played. You have a President. You don't like him just like the right didn't like the last one. That how life works. Nobody wins all the time. Nothing Mueller is doing is going to restore the significant inroads eight years of 0bama made towards the fundamental transformation of the United States of America. You're going to have to start over and do it through the election process or by force.

Get prepared. Whether that's physically or mentally or both. The investigation is done and over with. It's dead. The best you can hope for is a few very minor players getting slapped around and maybe not even that. We just learned this morning that Mueller indicted a company that wasn't even in existence during the time period that he alleges they committed wrongdoings. Smart guy? If he can manage to save face while not getting indicted himself I will say yes. Right now, not so much. He has exposed dirty leftist dealings while uncovering nothing of substance on his enemies. That's called a backfire.

Whomever filled your leftist head with the notion that you are morally superior, that you are intelligent beyond the comprehension of most did you an extreme disservice. Umpteen posts a day here where the leftist hoard runs hither and yon in response to what the media is lying about at the given moment tell that tale.

Most days I laugh. Some days I shake my head in disgust at how effectively our educational system has turned out the dumbest people who are convinced they're the smartest. Please, try to come to grips with the fact that you lost an election. Would it help to know you're not the first one's to do so? If that came as a shock to you, well...

Thank you for this extensive reply. For me it would have taken an almost infinite amount of chutzpah to have written it. I hear the feeling expressed in it a concern for some emotional suffering I may be suffering as a liberal, that we lost to Trump and can’t emotionally adjust. Speaking for myself at least, it’s not so much the realization that we lost that bothers me, but that we lost because of people like you, people who live in such a state of psychological ignorance they are unaware they project their own actual inner reality onto others like me.

In the reality I live in, all the traditional means developed over thousands of years designed to separate fact from fiction, things like the scientific method, psychoanalytic introspection, journalistic integrity, training via liberal education in the mathematics, statistics, critical thinking, the history and development of philosophy, probably all those things you might refer to that might attribute to some sense of achievement that could conver some sense of being smart, or at least classically intellectually trained, all these things still apply. So relying on all those years long and hard earned life mental training tells me that the world I live in is the one you only imagine you live in and that your entire post was nothing but a mass of projections designed to protect you from realizing the extreme irrational nature of your own massively distorted altered reality.

I just want you to know also though, that all that liberal training I acquired at great effort and considerable price that assures me Ian heads and shoulders more rationally situated in the real world than you are, confers, also, a certainty so deep as to be even better or more certain even than that supplied by mere gut feeling, and one byproduct of that certainty is utter indifference to your state of ignorance. I don’t just have faith you are wrong, I don’t just feel you are, I know you are and I know in addition to that that my knowing it does not make me better. You are as you had to be, exactly as you had to be and there is not a single thing about you that I have any way to justify blaming you for. Thank you again for expressing your thoughts.

I hope that when the case is laid out against Trump and if the evidence leads to his destruction you will be able to handle those facts as well as you wish I handle Trumps election and that you don’t fall apart at the seams.

 

[Greenman]

Except... You really do know. You just can't admit it. The Russians demonstrably backed Trump through a variety of covert means. It's psychological warfare. It's not for the MAGA but rather the opposite. Any candid, informed & objective observer would tell you that.

No complicity is required for that to be true.

Now that the company's that ran those have come forward for their day in court, we'll get to see what it was all about. All sorts of information will be made public, and the money trail will be exposed.

I would also argue that almost all marketing is psychological warfare.

 

[Jaskalas]

They talk endlessly about Trump and Russia, but where's the beef?

...
I am quite confident the President is going to be revealed as a rank criminal. I would like that to happen tomorrow but it can't. More work is being done to build a complete case. The President's criminal activity is extensive, in my opinion, and includes many in the Republican party. I want a good case done and I hope it is one that burns them all to the ground. You don't need a special council to know that Trump is scum. In a real America he would have been impeached for that already.

Right, I'd be dumb founded if any investigation into Trump did not reveal him as a "rank criminal". That much is to be expected because deep down we know that is what he is. Although, what still stands in question is the extent of his contact with Russia. Whether they meet the evidence necessary to accuse and/or charge Trump with the actual focus of the investigation. Or whether Mueller will be stuck with minions and the otherwise petty crimes of lying / corruption / etc. (Compared to the cries of treason levied against him.)

Then there is the question of whether anything would satisfy Republicans on the issue, to get them to vote to impeach. Bill Clinton lied and "had" to be impeached. I somehow doubt Republicans will hold Trump to the same standard. Which, I suppose, is why I am eager to see if Mueller can stick Trump with something actually related to Russia. Treason (or whatever that coordinated effort could be called) might, I hope, be enough to shake them from mount denial and get Republicans to impeach.

But first, someone in authority (Mueller) is going to have to lay out the case that it happened.
Or... are you concerned that no amount of shame can shake today's partisan party rancor?

 

[Jhhnn]

Now that the company's that ran those have come forward for their day in court, we'll get to see what it was all about. All sorts of information will be made public, and the money trail will be exposed.

I would also argue that almost all marketing is psychological warfare.

It's deeper & broader than that-

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/16/politics/richard-pinedo-guilty-plea/index.html

These are the efforts of seasoned & gifted propagandists who view America from outside our bubble. In certain respects they understand us better than we understand ourselves because they're more objective. It's their job to mess with our minds & promote irrational divisiveness. They found a near perfect vehicle in Trump.

None of it is really original on their part other than the execution. Trump's message is the same message the GOP has used since Gingrich, at least. They just helped him turn up the volume.

 

[Thebobo]

... Mueller is not just dirty, he's a vengeful, spiteful, ideologue....

Do you have any actual proof of this?

 

[Moonbeam]

......... I somehow doubt Republicans will hold Trump to the same standard. Which, I suppose, is why I am eager to see if Mueller can stick Trump with something actually related to Russia. Treason (or whatever that coordinated effort could be called) might, I hope, be enough to shake them from mount denial and get Republicans to impeach.

But first, someone in authority (Mueller) is going to have to lay out the case that it happened.
Or... are you concerned that no amount of shame can shake today's partisan party rancor?

Just look at the portion of boomerang's post just quoted by Thebobo. Trump has been screaming witch hunt for months and Republicans in congress have been hard at work destroying any respect people might have for any source of authority but their own. The zealotry of Republicans for the Republican party, a party that actually no longer exists, has morphed into a fanatical religious cult with Trump as it's absolute leader. We are on our way to the Spanish Inquisition, reason, logic, critical thinking is being burned at the stake. People who have been made to conform in their thinking by terror of shame, will die rather than admit to their guilt. They suffer deep deep psychological pain and it all comes out as hate. The internet has made it possible for this inevitable hatred of others, created by a competitive system, to coalesce into a mass outbreak of psychosis. Utter madness is sweeping over our land, helped along, of course, by the Russians and our cravenly egotistical president.

The presidency is gone, congress is gone, the courts are being more and more infected, 42% or so of the people are gone and we have a diseased altered reality press that is all some will look at. It's all on the inertial force of those in government still committed to the rule of law, what remains of real Americans among the people, and what is left of objective reporting to carry the day. I do not know if we have ever in our history been in worse condition than this.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Do you have any actual proof of this?

Well, that's what all the talking points that get sent to him say so what else do you need in the way of proof.

 

[fskimospy]

Do you have any actual proof of this?

It’s fascinating to me how the lunatic fringe like boomerang have convinced themselves that a whole bunch of lifelong Republicans have become vengeful, leftist ideologues. Shockingly enough it came at exactly the time hey started investigating Republicans.

Boomerang is the crazy ranting uncle at Thanksgiving. It’s best to just nod and ignore the insane ranting. There’s no reaching people like that.

 

[Moonbeam]

It’s fascinating to me how the lunatic fringe like boomerang have convinced themselves that a whole bunch of lifelong Republicans have become vengeful, leftist ideologues. Shockingly enough it came at exactly the time hey started investigating Republicans.

Boomerang is the crazy ranting uncle at Thanksgiving. It’s best to just nod and ignore the insane ranting. There’s no reaching people like that.

His concern for my sanity is concern for his own. He fears going crazy but his fears have already been realized and he's still basically OK, if crazy. I have a duty, it seems to me, to share those facts with him. He is afraid of what has already happened so the fear is a waste of energy. He has been shamed to the point of craziness and it's that shame that is a waste of his time and his life. I am as crazy as he is but in my case I've learned not to mind. I'm a bit nicer to myself about being crazy and that makes me care. I have something I think is of value to share with him. There is nothing so special about me that he can't do what I've done. Knowing what you know wouldn't you want me to do the same for you if you were in his shoes? He doesn't know that liberals aren't about stealing from those who have to give to themselves or for votes but because we are inwardly rich. The emotionally impoverished don't have anything to give and everything feels like theft. They were robbed as children and carry that pain. Rather than demand they stand up as emotionally mature adults, we have first a duty to be that way ourselves and then help others to be as best we can. As the Germans in the trenches in WW1 said translated: The situation is hopeless but not serious. There is a reality and nothing can change it no matter the depth of denial. It will always prevail because it alone is real.

 

[Genx87]

Which first, the Republicans destroy the rule of law or the rule of law takes down the Republican effort to destroy it?

Is a constitutional crisis coming sooner or later when the facts of criminal cooperation with Russia to take down the Democratic party are fully flushed out and the President takes the fifth? Will the Republicans destroy the rule of law to save themselves from infamy?

I am curious also how others see or avoid seeing the issues.

Destroying the rule of law like when Obama built legal framework to circumvent the 5th amendment and protected torturers and war criminals from the Bush admin? Ever wonder which citizens are on Trumps kill list?

 

[fskimospy]

Destroying the rule of law like when Obama built legal framework to circumvent the 5th amendment and protected torturers and war criminals from the Bush admin? Ever wonder which citizens are on Trumps kill list?

What does that have to do with the 5th amendment?

Surely you agree that Trump is an unprecedented threat to the rule of law?

 

[Genx87]

What does that have to do with the 5th amendment?

Surely you agree that Trump is an unprecedented threat to the rule of law?

Of course Trump is a disaster. The sentence was poorly written. I should had split it into two. The framework for killing US citizens abroad is separate from protecting Bush era goons.

 

[Jhhnn]

Of course Trump is a disaster. The sentence was poorly written. I should had split it into two. The framework for killing US citizens abroad is separate from protecting Bush era goons.

So that's a double duh-version gish gallop?

Neither GWB nor Obama are in any position to subvert the rule of law. Meanwhile, Trump & allies are attacking the FBI, the DoJ, the Special Counsel, the federal judiciary & the free press.

To what end other than to subvert the rule of law?

 

[Moonbeam]

Of course Trump is a disaster. The sentence was poorly written. I should had split it into two. The framework for killing US citizens abroad is separate from protecting Bush era goons.

I think the thrust of your argument is that Obama is as big a traitor as Bush was and now trump in turn and any focus on one makes me a hypocrite. I think Bush was a traitor for taking us into war with Iraq, when the enemy was hiding in Afghanistan, and I think Obama was a traitor for not charging those who used torture to extract information. I think the answers the senate got from the new CIA director show her to be an immoral spice of shit and her role in torture should be probed. I think Trump is a Mafia style criminal.

As far as the killing of citizens abroad, I think there is room for a just war rational. These citizens announced their intention to comduct warfare against the US and then, having amounted that imminent threat hid from the reach of the longest arm of the law.

Threat to conduct war against the nation and then hiding from any legal arm of justice that would be the first and only normal option, to me means you forfeit your life to any alternate means of prevention. You can’t claim citizens rights while avoiding citizen obligations and simultaneously announcing you intend to go to war against your nation. Absolutes cease to be absolutes where paradox is created. You can’t claim freedom to wage war against your country based on a citizenship claim and also take measures that prevent normal justice from happening.

 

[Genx87]

I think the thrust of your argument is that Obama is as big a traitor as Bush was and now trump in turn and any focus on one makes me a hypocrite. I think Bush was a traitor for taking us into war with Iraq, when the enemy was hiding in Afghanistan, and I think Obama was a traitor for not charging those who used torture to extract information. I think the answers the senate got from the new CIA director show her to be an immoral spice of shit and her role in torture should be probed. I think Trump is a Mafia style criminal.

As far as the killing of citizens abroad, I think there is room for a just war rational. These citizens announced their intention to comduct warfare against the US and then, having amounted that imminent threat hid from the reach of the longest arm of the law.

Threat to conduct war against the nation and then hiding from any legal arm of justice that would be the first and only normal option, to me means you forfeit your life to any alternate means of prevention. You can’t claim citizens rights while avoiding citizen obligations and simultaneously announcing you intend to go to war against your nation. Absolutes cease to be absolutes where paradox is created. You can’t claim freedom to wage war against your country based on a citizenship claim and also take measures that prevent normal justice from happening.

My point is both parties have done their fair share of subverting the rule of law. And I do not buy the imminent threat argument neither. Imminent threats don't allow for lawsuits by parents of the target to stop the execution. And months to formulate a plan to kill. Immediate threats constitute a firefight situation. Which afaik has always been ruled legal. We have a storied history of US citizens fighting for our enemies and against us. We have always had a legal framework for bringing them to trial after the war. That is until Obama came into office. The most damning part is we indicted in federal court Osama Bin Laden. And even attempted to capture him for trial. But wouldn't do the same for a US citizen. Shameful.

 

[Jhhnn]

My point is both parties have done their fair share of subverting the rule of law. And I do not buy the imminent threat argument neither. Imminent threats don't allow for lawsuits by parents of the target to stop the execution. And months to formulate a plan to kill. Immediate threats constitute a firefight situation. Which afaik has always been ruled legal. We have a storied history of US citizens fighting for our enemies and against us. We have always had a legal framework for bringing them to trial after the war. That is until Obama came into office. The most damning part is we indicted in federal court Osama Bin Laden. And even attempted to capture him for trial. But wouldn't do the same for a US citizen. Shameful.

So, we should have treated Al Awlaki differently than the other terrorists fighting against the Yemeni govt at the time because he was an American citizen?

Outside US jurisdiction, which he fled, he was just another terrorist. He was free to assert his rights as an American at any US consulate or embassy & would have enjoyed the protections of our laws.

 

[Moonbeam]

My point is both parties have done their fair share of subverting the rule of law. And I do not buy the imminent threat argument neither. Imminent threats don't allow for lawsuits by parents of the target to stop the execution. And months to formulate a plan to kill. Immediate threats constitute a firefight situation. Which afaik has always been ruled legal. We have a storied history of US citizens fighting for our enemies and against us. We have always had a legal framework for bringing them to trial after the war. That is until Obama came into office. The most damning part is we indicted in federal court Osama Bin Laden. And even attempted to capture him for trial. But wouldn't do the same for a US citizen. Shameful.

What would have been shameful is if he had lived his fellow citizens or many had died trying to bring him to justice out of a way zone. Your objections in my opinion are idealism at the expense of common sense.

 

[Starbuck1975]

The rule of law will destroy Trump’s inner circle and most likely Trump himself. The GOP will take a bath in the next few election cycles.

 

[Genx87]

What would have been shameful is if he had lived his fellow citizens or many had died trying to bring him to justice out of a way zone. Your objections in my opinion are idealism at the expense of common sense.

This idealism served this country well for ~230 years. Now this common sense has opened up the the executive branch to be judge and executioner. It isn't a matter of when, it is a matter of who will decide to utilize this legal framework to kill citizens without trial.

 

[zinfamous]

I wouldn't pin any hopes on the Mueller investigation. It's by necessity, turned into a CYA effort. Mueller is not just dirty, he's a vengeful, spiteful, ideologue. He's been exposed as such and as his investigation proceeded the ruling party was at work too and has found out about a cadre of political operatives both inside and outside of the intelligence community who conspired to put Hillary in office. It remains to be seen how many if any are charged. I am a realist and don't expect any to face any consequences.

I know that the media fills the heads of the left day after day with all kinds of hopes. Russia, Russia, Russia, Stormy, Stormy, Stormy and that it's all gobbled up and turned into manifestations of the restoration of socialist dreams. You're being played. You have a President. You don't like him just like the right didn't like the last one. That how life works. Nobody wins all the time. Nothing Mueller is doing is going to restore the significant inroads eight years of 0bama made towards the fundamental transformation of the United States of America. You're going to have to start over and do it through the election process or by force.

Get prepared. Whether that's physically or mentally or both. The investigation is done and over with. It's dead. The best you can hope for is a few very minor players getting slapped around and maybe not even that. We just learned this morning that Mueller indicted a company that wasn't even in existence during the time period that he alleges they committed wrongdoings. Smart guy? If he can manage to save face while not getting indicted himself I will say yes. Right now, not so much. He has exposed dirty leftist dealings while uncovering nothing of substance on his enemies. That's called a backfire.

Whomever filled your leftist head with the notion that you are morally superior, that you are intelligent beyond the comprehension of most did you an extreme disservice. Umpteen posts a day here where the leftist hoard runs hither and yon in response to what the media is lying about at the given moment tell that tale.

Most days I laugh. Some days I shake my head in disgust at how effectively our educational system has turned out the dumbest people who are convinced they're the smartest. Please, try to come to grips with the fact that you lost an election. Would it help to know you're not the first one's to do so? If that came as a shock to you, well...

This is the new Kewl-Aid, now fortified with grain liquor and MD 20/20.

 

[Thebobo]

This is the new Kewl-Aid, now fortified with grain liquor and MD 20/20.

I suspect he's mainlining hannity. I don't think an intervention would work he hasn't bottomed out yet. Close though.

 

[dank69]

My point is both parties have done their fair share of subverting the rule of law.

Thanks for clarifying that you will continue to believe your point is valid even though the evidence you brought to support your point was just shown to be mostly invalid and even if it were valid would not even be in the same league as what the GOP is doing now.

And I do not buy the imminent threat argument neither. Imminent threats don't allow for lawsuits by parents of the target to stop the execution. And months to formulate a plan to kill. Immediate threats constitute a firefight situation. Which afaik has always been ruled legal. We have a storied history of US citizens fighting for our enemies and against us. We have always had a legal framework for bringing them to trial after the war. That is until Obama came into office. The most damning part is we indicted in federal court Osama Bin Laden. And even attempted to capture him for trial. But wouldn't do the same for a US citizen. Shameful.

Nice crocodile tears. Like you really give a shit about Al Awlaki. If a GOP President had got him you'd be defending it against any liberal/libertarian bullshit like what you just posted.