Which LCDs now come with a 16ms response time or better?

[JZilla]

Press release on the 192T.

AFAIK all the 16ms monitors, have the same panel (AU Optronics). Except the LG, rumour says it has a different 16ms panel.

 

[TypeM]

Gamer,
The screen looks slightly smaller due to the thinner bezels. I do prefer the thinner bezels since I plan on the dual monitor setup. It doesnt look like a larger monitor but it looks like a decent sized monitor, that is ok with me. I have played Unreal Tournament 2003, Jedi Knight II, and Soldier of Fortune 2. They played without any ghosting. I tried UT 2003 on my 1800FP in the past, and saw some ghosting. I also watched a couple of DVDs on it (Driven, and Gone in 60 Seconds) and they looked great. The 171B looks like a normal CRT with the colors being more bright and vibrant. The only downside is the blacks, they are dark (more than a CRT), but you get used to them. I do not think much about them, and they are not as bad as the 1800FP. I think it is an inherent problem with all LCDs. Overall, I am VERY happy with the monitor. It has helped in a few games like Soldier of Fortune 2 where I can sniper alot better now, and it looks real.

The response time of the monitor is the rise and fall of pixels. The rise on this monitor is 12ms and the fall is 4ms for a total of 16ms. It may not seem to be that big of a difference, 16ms vs 25ms, but it is a big difference. I think anything above a rise of 12ms and a fall of 8ms is a little too slow for my taste.
Mack

 

[Jeff7181]

Yes I know that the response time is the sum of the rising and falling times... but the RATIO is what I've heard is important. Supposedly a 3:1 ratio is what you want. Which would make the 12+4=16 an optimal ratio... but also a 30+10=40 should be too based on that reason. I know someone with a $1000 17 inch LCD with a 40 ms total response time, and he, as well as reviews of that monitor, say there's is no ghosting or trailing. It's made by SGI, can't remember the model name off the top of my head. But it's one of those wide screen ones, 1600x1024 max resolution.

 

[Rotax]

I haven't spent much time w/ an LCD (well laptops..but..) I just had a question. Does the refresh not make as huge a diff as it does on a CRT? I can't STAND running at a refresh below 85, it really bothers my eyes. But is this ... or would it be as noticable on a LCD?

 

[jasyn]

oh wow. that viewsonic is beautiful.

here it is for $495. clicky

the extra $100 over the nec1760v gets dvi and pivot. worth it imo.

 

[bupkus]

Originally posted by: Rotax
I haven't spent much time w/ an LCD (well laptops..but..) I just had a question. Does the refresh not make as huge a diff as it does on a CRT? I can't STAND running at a refresh below 85, it really bothers my eyes. But is this ... or would it be as noticable on a LCD?

This reminds me of when CRT monitors had sustained phosphors and image trailing.

I run my LCD at or try to run it at 60Hz. LCDs, atleast mine, only has a refresh range of 60-75Hz. More than that is out of spec and I think that applies to all LCDs.

Remember, that with todays' CRTs the point is to write and rewrite with the electron gun as many times as is needed to prevent the optic nerve from witnessing that refresh or flicker.
The LCD matrix of components are sustained emitters of light that now with games and DVD need to be speeded up in their pixel conversion. First they'll get the emitters to rise and fall faster, then they'll jack up the refresh rate just as they did with CRTs.

 

[TypeM]

I meant no offense to you Jeff. As far as the ratios are concerned... that I am not sure of, so I will refrain from comment. It has been my experience that anything 25+ms of response time does exhibit some amount of ghosting. Maybe there are some exceptions, but that is it...an exception. It is just my opinion.

I have my refresh rate to 60Hz as well and it performs fine. It is my understanding that the refresh rate on an LCD is different than on a CRT. I believe that Bupkus can explain it further.

Mack

 

[Jeff7181]

An LCD's refresh rate isn't important because an LCD draws the whole screen at once, which is why when you video tape an LCD monitor, you don't see the "bands" moving across the screen.

 

[JZilla]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
An LCD's refresh rate isn't important because an LCD draws the whole screen at once, which is why when you video tape an LCD monitor, you don't see the "bands" moving across the screen.

Isn't that a crt that does that ? AFAIK a lcd doesn't do this, but instead only changes the pixels that needs to be replaced.

 

[bupkus]

I'm not gonna pretend to be an expert on this and I wish we had better information. Unfortunately, I'm to busy to research it but if anyone else wants to I'll read it.

But, I'm thinking like this:
With a crt the info is transfered sequentially from the video card through the cable to the electron gun. The faster the card, the faster the refresh, assuming the monitor can keep up. With an lcd I imagine the information is also passed sequentially as an instantaneous transfer of a 1240x1024x32 bits would require a huge pipe. Ok, encryption could be used but... what am I talking about? No encryption. That info is then drawn onto the lcd screen by whatever technology it uses in whatever pattern it uses. Otherwise, why then call it a 60Hz refresh rate? Take a single emitter. Let's say it's green and suddenly I get fragged and it should turn red but I have to wait 1/60th of a second for that. Now it so happens that my HP calculator says that 1/60 = 16.666/1000. That means that event "redraw" at 60Hz is about 16.6ms per redraw. Hmm... kinda suggests something don't it?

 

[MrGamer7934]

"I'm not gonna pretend to be an expert on this and I wish we had better information. Unfortunately, I'm to busy to research it but if anyone else wants to I'll read it.

But, I'm thinking like this:
With a crt the info is transfered sequentially from the video card through the cable to the electron gun. The faster the card, the faster the refresh, assuming the monitor can keep up. With an lcd I imagine the information is also passed sequentially as an instantaneous transfer of a 1240x1024x32 bits would require a huge pipe. Ok, encryption could be used but... what am I talking about? No encryption. That info is then drawn onto the lcd screen by whatever technology it uses in whatever pattern it uses. Otherwise, why then call it a 60Hz refresh rate? Take a single emitter. Let's say it's green and suddenly I get fragged and it should turn red but I have to wait 1/60th of a second for that. Now it so happens that my HP calculator says that 1/60 = 16.666/1000. That means that event "redraw" at 60Hz is about 16.6ms per redraw. Hmm... kinda suggests something don't it?"

_____________________________________________________________



Yes it does - that a 16ms reponse time is the sweet spot for an LCD w/ a 60hz refresh rate

Gamer

 

[MrGamer7934]

Mack,
Just to let you know that I went ahead and ordered the Viewsonic VP171B and it will be here tomorrow.
I will give you and everyone else my thoughts and opinions on this monitor. Also does anyone have a good suggestion on a program that tests the LCD's color and helps identify the dead pixels. Thanks

Gamer

 

[JZilla]

Originally posted by: MrGamer7934
Mack,
Just to let you know that I went ahead and ordered the Viewsonic VP171B and it will be here tomorrow.
I will give you and everyone else my thoughts and opinions on this monitor. Also does anyone have a good suggestion on a program that tests the LCD's color and helps identify the dead pixels. Thanks

Gamer

Monitors Direct Toolkit, just press the launch button.

 

[MrGamer7934]

Thanks!

Gamer

 

[TypeM]

Mr. Gamer,
I believe that you will like it once you get it. I just ran the monitors direct testing on it and it did well. The only downside I noticed was with the response time test. There are little 1" or so white boxes that move all around the black background looking for ghosting. It did very will with the ghosting as I could not see any at all. The concern was there was a little flicker as it redrew the boxes. It is my understanding that screen flicker is common with the 16ms monitors as it is a tradeoff for the response time. Can anyone shed any light on the subject? I dont want to scare you, I want it to be a fair review. ***Note*** I have not been able to reproduce it at any other time in benchmarks, games, or watching DVDs, except on the Monitors Direct test. I think that it may be when there is an ALL Black background and its trying to move a small white square. I can't repeat it in UT2003, Soldier of Fortune 2, or Jedi Knight II. Nor watching classics like the Matrix and Top Gun. The other thing I noticed was that I had 1 pixel that has stayed black in the top right corner where the X to close your application session is located. It is only one, and it is so far up there that I dont even look at it. I had to run the test for it to stay black and for me to notice it. It kinda looks like a smudge versus a dead pixel. I speant 10 minutes trying to clean it off before I realized it .

Overall, I am very pleased with my monitor. I am so pleased... there may be another one on the way . Gamer, I think you will be very satisfied with your choice, as I am a very happy customer. I ordered from Newegg, where did you order your monitor? I am happy with only 1 dead pixel in a non viewable location. It is much better than the first 3 (yes 3) Dell 1800FPs that I recieved before I got my good one. It was a nightmare with dead pixels all around the center of the screen!!! Gamer, please let me know when you receive your monitor. I would like to hear the reviews from a fellow owner.

Thanks,
Mack

 

[MrGamer7934]

Mack,
Ordered mine from techonweb.com for $495 (best price on web that I've been able to locate) and since I was unfamalier with this company I called to speak with a sales rep about my future purchase. I was very happy with our conversation, the gentleman was very professional and helpful in providing me the information that I needed to finalize my decision. Happy to find out that if my monitor arrives and I'm unhappy with it for ANY reason they will exchange it (even for 1, thats correct 1, dead pixel) or if I'm just not happy with the product for the first 30 days I will be refunded my full purchase price with no restocking fee! That's top notch service in my book. Monitor has been shipped out today and being the impatient person I had it overnighted

Again mack, thanks for all your feedback regarding this monitor. I too am very excited and will report back with my review.

Gamer

 

[TypeM]

Gamer,
That sounds great. I wish other retailers had that same customer service attitude. I am happy with NewEgg as they have always shipped my packages with enough packing for my tastes. I think 1 pixel isnt bad, as long as it is out of the main viewable area. Please let me know about the qaulity of the retailer as well once you get recieve it. I may order my other one from them instead of NewEgg. I paid $539 shipped for mine.

Thanks,
Mack

 

[Rufio]

hehehe

i sell these at my work!

i want to get one so badly.

But ihave a 19 and a 17.4 lcd monitor.......i have to sell those first

 

[TypeM]

Rufio, what is your take on the monitor. Do you like it, or do you have a another monitor that you recommend?

Mack

 

[MrGamer7934]

Its showtime! All I can say is WOW! Monitor came today, packaged very nicely it its own viewsonic box. Everything I needed to fire it up was included such as the manual, pivot software, dvi and analog cables, US and UK power plugs, monitor driver cd (but I downloaded mine from Viewsonics website, the digitally signed version wouldn't install because I received a "monitor was not found error" but it suggested to goto Viewsonic.com and download the standard non-signed INF files. Thats what I did and everything went smoothly) Next thing I did was run the dead pixel test from Monitors Direct and that resulted in 0 dead pixels Finally I fired up UT2003 and was amazed by the color, clearity, and just the overall digital look of this game. ALso happy to report I saw no "motion blur" and ghosting/streaking was also nonexistant. The only problem I experienced with this so far is that I can't run 3DMark03 (display error) but 2K1 runs fine... Not a big deal though. Since this screen is still new to me and I have alot of testing yet to do on it, unfortunately this is all I can report at this time.
But I can't stress this enough, Awesome display that suits my needs and beleive me thats not an easy task for hardware to live up to because I'm very very picky and research things until I drive myself crazy and its very rewarding when that part arrives and it performs as expected. Mack I would like to send you my thanks once again for you recommendation and thoughts on this LCD, its a winner in my book!

Gamer

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: JZilla

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
An LCD's refresh rate isn't important because an LCD draws the whole screen at once, which is why when you video tape an LCD monitor, you don't see the "bands" moving across the screen.

Isn't that a crt that does that ? AFAIK a lcd doesn't do this, but instead only changes the pixels that needs to be replaced.

That's what I'm trying to say... LCD's can draw the whole screen at the same time, so you'll never see that banding. But you're right, LCD's only change the pixels that need to be changed, which also helps eliminate flicker.

 

[TypeM]

Gamer,
That is great to hear. Im glad you like the monitor. It gave me a new advantage in my gaming and movies. Do you have the minimal screen flicker with the white boxes on the ghosting test? I am wondering if it is the monitor or my crappy video card. Please keep us updated as you try new games and programs to test it with. Congrats again.

Thanks,
Mack

 

[Conky]

I just ordered a NEC/Mitsubishi 17" LCD Model 1760NX White- Retail from Newegg.

I originally wanted and was about to get the 1760V white at $399 delivered but they raised the price up to $415 with $10 delivery charge making it $425.

I figured, what the heck, spend the extra $50 and get the DVI input.

I'm looking forward to removing my KDS 19" Trinitron and all of the heat it generates from my tiny bedroom. I will also appreciate the extra deskspace although I have a really huge desk.

I can't wait! I will give a review when it shows.

 

[HardWired]

Replacement warranty is a BIG thing to consider when buying a LCD. Planar and their gaming 17", 16 ms. PX171 has a 3 year "Customer First" warranty that covers not only the backlight (many top mfgr.'s don't cover the backlight at all) but they will also replace (not repair) with only 3 dead sub- pixels. They pay for shipping (2 Day Air) both directions during the warranty as well.

It considered to be the best warranty out there by many. I had their PL191 a couple of weeks ago and it's an exquisite display.

Check out dell.com. They offer several Planar LCD's. From 17" all the way up to 42 " plasma.

Some food for thought...

 

[ToadkillerDog]

Anybdoy know what the Apple 23 inch Cinema Display specs are? Haven't been able to find refresh times for this monitor anywhere. Do know it is 1920 by 1200 and has beautiful color. Is gorgeous, really.