Which is the best form of CARDIO?

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Caliber

Senior member
Oct 9, 1999
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Heh, i should have been more specific:)
the cereal is an organic bran type with flax in it, and i do have salad's, sides of carrots and broccoli, and all that good stuff. The only place where i dont eat well enough is lunch, but i try to make up for that by using 12 grain stone ground whole wheat bread.

Oh i also have never had any fast food in close to 2 years, and i used to have french fries every single day at school(yech) but stopped that LOOOONG ago.
 

GoldenGuppy

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2000
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Caliber- AWESOME, you've given up Fries? That's an impossible feat for me :( ... if you eat healtily 6 days a week, I think you can have one free day. I read from Body-For-Life that it keeps your body from assuming that it is in a state of deprivation. I have yet to follow the BFL eating plan though. But I'm pretty sure that it's reliable and really effective.
 

Caliber

Senior member
Oct 9, 1999
509
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Yep, used to have one big greasy plate of fries every day from the school cafeteria:) But its amazing, i see people with two orders of fries, one big cookie(the big ones!) and a coke...I just want to go up and smack some sense into them but refrain from it:)
 

GoldenGuppy

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2000
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Funny though is the fact that some of those people who eat all that, the fries, cookies, etc, are the ones who never get fat! Damn metabolism.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
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Apropos of our discussion here is a germane news link:

Grazin' ain't crazy!!

Swimmers have problems with their rotator cuffs from overuse combined with poor form, particularly when they get tired. One of the reasons they lift weights is to strengthen the shoulder girdle and help prevent rotator cuff injuries.
 

sd

Golden Member
Feb 29, 2000
1,968
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Swimming is boring, but thats from a mad cyclist.

Calculate your max heart rate and train at 50-70% of that for 40-60 min. for MOST EFFICIENT body fat burning.
Its 220 - age = Max HR
i.e. Me: 220 - 33 = 187 bpm(beats per min) then go .5 x 187 = 93.5 and .7 x 187 = 130.9
So my best fat burning target heart rate is 94 - 131 bpm. Do anything continuously for 40-60 min in that range 4-5 days/wk. and you'll be good to go.

Do the activity you like, thats what you'll stick to :)
 

Bignate603

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
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I still say swimming, i went and counted the calories of what I ate over the day. Topped out at 5400 calories. Hehe... Those guys are somewhat right about never getting "huge" if you just swim. You tend to get long lean muscles instead of the shorter ones given from weight lifting. However, whoever says you won't burn fat because you get cold is wrong in my opinion. If you get cold doing laps, you're doing something wrong or swimming in a lake that you had to break the ice off before you hopped in. (I swam in a pool that had the heater busted and it wasabout 64 F. Water that cold sucks heat of you FAST) Most public pools keep the temp closer to 80. Our local YMCA keeps it at 82 F, which is actually almost unbearable to a serious swimmer. Imagine running outside at that temp, you just overheat! For casual lap swimmers, it should be ok though. Here's some tips on lap swimming for excersise to get tone instead of just going back and forth getting nothing done.

Commit to a work out schedule, starting out 3 days a week would be good, but I personally think 5 is better.

Start out slow and build higher. To start out, do about 2000 yards. That's 80 pool lengths. Here's a standard work out that should work for a beginner

1 pool length usually equals 25 yards
#Ax#B means swim the length in yards of #B as many however many times #A is

300y warm up. Don't go to slow, loosen up your muscles
4x50y kick with a kickboard. Take about 15 or 20 seconds between each 50
4x100y swim. Again 15 or twenty seconds between each 100
2x200y This is a bit longer, sub in 8x50 if you need to
Take a five minute break
6x50 Swim this hard, this is wear you get heart rate up, take 20 seconds between each, DON'T CHEAT!
1x100 slow This is real slow to recover a bit
3x100 Hard, should hurt a bit, only stop if you are going to puke or get a major cramp. After you swim for a few weeks the cramps will stop.
1x100 slow Again recover
1x200 fairly quick, but don't kill yourself. If you are up for it, do a couple more of these.
2x100 warm down ALWAYS WARM DOWN! you won't be able to move later if you don't.

This is just something i made up. Obviously, you may need a harder or easier practice depending on ability. This is actually a fair practice and should take the average lap swimmer an hour and a half or round about to complete. If you like training like that, you can pump out something like that in about 50 minutes if you're in real good shape (pretty muchonly competitive swimmers).

I'm not saying you should swim at all, instead do something that works for you. The best excersise is something you like and will do often. Get somebody to go with you and do it if you want/
 

Bignate603

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
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Speaking from experience (this is what my sports doc said and explained using all manner of models of shoulders) i have a general feel for why swimmers get injuries. It is form poor form, if you did the "floppy disk" as mentioned earlier your joints should be sore after just one time swimming like that. If you swam perfectly, you would never have one single problem with your shoulders ever. Sadly, even top swimmers have bad habits and flaws that sometimes give them trouble. Most problems are caused by the rotator cuff rubbing against this bone that sits over the shoulder right around where your collarbone attaches. This will get inflamed and bug you a bit. My injury to my left sholder is a bit different. I streched my tendons through poor form during my reach out in front. This became habit and i could have easily done this motion a million times over the years before I ever saw a problem. I've been swimming almost every day for 10 years, so this WILL NOT happen over night.

Every sport causes something. Swimming can be rough on your shoulders, but I think that's better than rough on the knees. You don't walkwith your shoulders...

One more tip, think of getting on good relations with the life guards and ask them to help you improve form. You can't always feel exactly what you are doing and life guards should have a general idea for what to do.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
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BigNate:

I'm an enthusiastic fan of swimming. My daughter is a competitive swimmer. So I will agree that swimming is a great workout.

However, no beginner will swim 2000 yards, Nate. They might swim 2000 INCHES. :) And remember they don't know fly kick from a donut. Kicking fly takes quite a bit of time to learn. You forgot how many years it took for you to get it right, didn't you? :)

Check out Brent Rushall's site. He has an article about the limited weight reducing benefits of swimming. I looked briefly for it, but couldn't find it. Regardless, as a swimmer, you should read ALL of the articles.

Swimming Science Journal
 

GoldenGuppy

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2000
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For all of you fitness gurus who have had the Vietnamese food, Pho. Do any of you guys know whether it's good for you or not? Cuz my mom makes it a lot, and I, frankly eat it a lot. Just want a heads up on what I'm consuming... It's thin white noodles, w/ beef, in broth...
 

Bignate603

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
13,897
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chess9, you might be right that that practice is a bit hard, but where did you get fly kick? didn't mention it, I just put in 4x50 kick. Anyways, i don't do fly at all because the tendons catch in my shoulder and it locks up, I just can't get the arm back out in front because of that. I'm mainly distance freestyle, which explains my body type, tall, long and lean.

If you want to start slower to get into swimming by all means do what you are capable of. It will take a while to build up and like I said, you may want somebody to watch and give pointers. I checked it out and there are even "Masters" teams which isn't talking about ability, just age. Older and less competitive adults may find it enjoyable to practice, and swim on the team. It will give great exercise and be fun too. That way you also get a coach to help you. Depending on the team, they'll expect a certain level of ability so i would say practice on your own for a bit to gain stamina and smooth out your stroke. You will be able to fix alot of the major defects in your form just by doing it alot.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
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BigNate:

Oops! You are right. I read it quickly and transposed the "y" for yards into fly in my teeny, tiny brain. :)

If you read the newsgroup rec.sport.swimming, you'll see frequent posts by Dr. Larry Wiesenthal. He has two daughters who are top swimmers in SoCal. Anyway, he believes that the combination of a high elbow and turning the palm slightly outward with thumb almost pointing down is the prime cause of most shoulder injuries (it causes impingement). Your problem may be easily correctable with exercises and some rest. Unless you swim USAS, you should be past swimming season and ready for some rest. You might log onto the newsgroup and post a question for Larry. He uses the handle "runnswim". He is a great guy and very helpful to swimmers. Just tell him Robert from Orlando sent you. :)

Keep up the good work. God knows I worship distance swimming!

Edit: Actually, I just looked at rec.sport.swimming and he has posted three articles on swimmer's shoulder. Go get them and print them out immediately, if not sooner!!!!
Free medical advice from one of the top guys on this issue is a rare find. Anything he says on the topic is state of the art, medically speaking.

Good luck.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
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BigNate and others:

I see Larry, being a proud father, has posted an English composition by his daughter about swimming. Being the father of a swimmer, and a rag tag swimmer myself, I thought you folks might appreciate a deeper understanding of what BigNate goes through to become the best he can be.

"The Journey of the Swimmer

by Laurin Weisenthal

?The philosophy is simple; to achieve, you must work. You must work very hard.?
~Erika Salumae, 1992 Olympic Sprint Cycling Champion

The time is five o?clock A.M. The sky ripples in a deep, velvety black as I
race
across the pool deck, tugging my unruly hair into a latex swim cap. The frigid
wind
bites into my nearly bare body; the icy deck numbs my toes as I adjust my
goggles
over weary eyes. I glance about, feeling the warmth of comradeship as my eyes
light on the four others who have made the effort this morning. With a deep
sigh of
resignation, my body launches into an arch, convulsing slightly at the initial
shock
of the crisp, eerie blue water. Forced awake, I automatically begin the
powerful
strokes of my warm-up, preparing myself for the first of the day?s two training

sessions that will test the physical strength and mental tenacity of each
athlete who
dares make the attempt.

Day in and day out it is the same routine; if you want to be great, if you one
day
want to be ranked among the few who can call themselves the best, you must
maintain a lifestyle that nears insanity. Commuting time not included, swim
training
eats up anywhere from 20 to 24 hours of your week, possibly more, depending on
the coach. Not even illness, weather, or holidays are allowed to interfere with
your
training schedule: unless you are vomiting or feverish you drag your protesting
body
to practice; unless lightning threatens your life you endure whatever nature
hurls in
your way; if something as inconsiderate as Christmas causes you to take a day
off,
you make up the training you missed, perhaps by adding another round of doubles

to your week.

Athletes vying for the coveted label of ?the best? all face grim circumstances
and
sacrifice. The unfortunate high school student has a structured school schedule
to
contend with, translated into required school hours and nightly class work.
Life
becomes a fearful experience of day to day survival: directly after school
comes
practice, so homework isn?t started until 7:30 at night. If this sounds like a
simple
inconvenience, the factor of morning practice has been forgotten. Swimmers rise

for practice anywhere between 4:00 and 4:30 in the silent darkness of early
morning. They are lucky to snatch five hours of sleep on the eve of a double
practice day. The other days they cannot make up the sleep they have lost
because
they must finish the homework they couldn?t complete the night before. There is

always a Saturday morning practice as well, so the only time a swimmer obtains
a
decent amount of sleep is Saturday night. On the other end of the spectrum is
the
post-grad. He faces the ominous threat of financial difficulty.

Training itself is rigorous and painful, both on the body and on the mind. It
involves
a demanding combination of dryland exercises and two hours of pool time per
training session. People have hinted swimming to be a boring sport, swimming
?up
and back along a black line? for all eternity. These critics cannot be any more

wrong. Swimming requires more thought and focus than many of the common
sports others play. True, you don?t contend with a ball, nor do you need to
devise
strategies and plays involving other people. But what makes it so difficult is
the
overwhelming emphasis on technique: forcing your body to move in just the
perfect
way to minimize resistance in the water and maximize the power of your stroke.
There are four different strokes in swimming, and for each stroke you must
consider a multitude of tiny factors: where is your hand entering the water?
how is
your body positioned? are your elbows bent enough on the catch? are they bent
too
much? are you over-reaching? are you dragging your hips? are you rotating
enough? and so many more. Resistance through water is a factor that is much
more
significant than resistance through air, and any little error can add tenths
that build
up over the course of a race. You must feel where your body is in relationship
to
the water, and there is always, always something you are doing incorrectly.
Swimming becomes an intricate dance of perfecting one thing and discovering
another that is flawed. Even the best in the world, the Olympians and world
record
holders, are forever looking for minute adjustments in their technique to drop
mere
hundredths from their times.

This quest for perfection involves endless repetition of unimaginable drills to

discover the right niche for each athlete. You must always be thinking about
what
you are doing, feeling each element, to detect the flaws. At the same time you
must
be thinking about starts, turns, finishes, pacing, and racing. You must be
smart to
be a swimmer.

Then you must take what you feel in the drills and apply it to the actual sets.

Coaches develop sets that are tailored to match the swimmer and the swimmer?s
needs. The sprint freestyler, for example, does not do the same workout as the
distance IMer. The breastroker does not do the same workout as the butterflyer,

who does not do the same workout as the distance freestyler, and so on. But no
matter which group you fit into, sets are devised to be arduous affairs. You
must
push yourself to your limit, and then push past that, over and over again, in
every
training session you face. You must always force yourself on, performing
whatever
your coach tells you to do. You never pause to consider disobeying: if he says
to
swim faster, you swim faster. The response is automatic; you listen, you
doggedly
nod, and you launch yourself off the wall, hurling your will into the set.
Swimmers
suffer some of the most pain imaginable, for their whole body is consistently
subjected to the wrath of the pool. After some training sessions your body is
so
beat up that you walk into your living room and drop dead on the floor. No
muscle
group escapes use in swimming. You tighten up in pain, force your way through
sheer physical exhaustion; yet the dedicated punch through the breaking point
and
continue on, knowing that this is what it takes to be the best.

At times you work so hard that you simply become numb to the pain; you are
aware that you can barely lift your protesting arms out of the water, and that
your
legs feel like solid granite, but you no longer detect your screaming body. Few
ever
reach this point; they begin to feel the rising surge of pain and back off,
afraid.
Hence the mental toughness and desire come into play, for you must defeat the
mind games you begin to play with yourself. You cannot ponder whether you can
go on; you must decide to go on, and if you do, you discover the beautiful,
liberating feeling of realization that you can do anything.

Swimming is a cruel sport. You can train with all your heart and soul for a
year
and, just before the important meet, fall ill. Or at that one meet you can have
a
single poor performance due to a large amount of details that could go wrong.
Or
you can get a devastating injury, the most common being one to the shoulder. To

come back from injury is a difficult journey in itself, and one that defines a
person?s character. Then there is the unfairness of the sport: the hardest
workers
and most deserving are not always the ones that reap the glory. Talent is just
as
great a factor in swimming as it is in anything else, and those that have it do
not
always realize the potency of their gift. An athlete may give her life to
swimming
and still never be as great as another, born with the natural gift, who gives
only
70% to the sport. Swimming can give the highest pinnacle of joy and elation in
success, but it can also bestow the most crushing misery and devastation in
failure.
Both are decided by mere seconds or less.

So why do you do it? friends ask me. Why do you do go through all that? Are you

crazy or something? Maybe I am. But they don?t understand, they can?t
understand swimming in the way that I do. I do it because I love it, more than
anything the world can offer. Even in the middle of the most painful training
sessions, performed on little sleep, with my body begging for relief, I am
content to
be where I am. I have been through the darkest hours of the anger and
frustration
of injury, wondering desperately if I would ever return to the pool. I have
been
broken down by the demands of the sport to be built back up again. I have cried
in
disappointment and doubt when I failed to perform as well as I expected to
after
months of the above described. Yet always am I drawn back to the glittering,
blue
water, ready to face another day.

I love swimming for what it is, a sport that represents all that is right in
athletics.
There are no judges to determine whether you are a superior athlete than the
next
girl. No coach can make a call as to where you will play, how much you will
play,
and how important you are to a team. The person to get their hand on the wall
the
fastest is the winner, whether you like that person or not. The clock does not
lie.

To many, swimming is just another sport, or a fun activity. Yet only those on
the
inside of the swimming world really understand what this sport is about. I love
the
people involved in swimming, for we all know what we go through, in the pool
and
out. Even those who aren?t willing to push themselves as far as others have an
appreciation and give their admiration and respect to those who do. We are
always
immediate friends because of the bonds we share; because we know what it is to
be
consumed by a sport that makes us whole, and to want something so badly that we

will do whatever it takes to get there. And that feeling of glory, that feeling
of
performing excellently after everything has gone right, is the most beautiful,
indescribable feeling in human experience. No matter how rare, that is what we
live
for, and I could never give it up."
 

GoldenGuppy

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2000
3,494
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Chess9- How are you training for your triathlon? Are you doing the triathlon for competition or pleasure? Because sometimes I run races just for the pleasure or sense of accomplishment :)
 

ecrespol

Senior member
Jun 28, 2000
572
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Somthing that you can sustain consistantly for a while (higher the HR the less fat it burns) And watch what you eat.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
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I'm running 35 miles per week, swimming only 5000 yards per week now, and biking from 60-100 per week. I've got to get back to lifting soon. Haven't lifted in about a month. My long run is 10 miles, but I will be kicking that up to 18 by June 1. My long bike is just 40 miles now, but I'm going to do a 100 miler starting in February and each month thereafter. In June I plan on doing a 3 mile timed swim once a week, and standard interval training two days a week. My training time will consume about 15-18 hours per week, so my wife is not going to be too happy and the number of home projects completed will plummet.

This is just for fun and fitness, actually. One of my buddies did GF the last 3 years and has talked me into it. I was a short distance runner in high school, so these long triathlons are not exactly my cup of soup. I prefer short races and lots of speed!! (although at my age a 5:45 mile passes for speed.)

Also, I've decided I need to be much thinner as I age. I've been carrying too much weight and don't have as much interest in pumping iron as I did when I was younger. So I need more cardio to keep the fat off.

I ran just 5000 meters very slowly today because I was tired from a hard bike workout yesterday. Tomorrow morning I do a "brick". A "brick" is a long bike ride followed by a run. It's called a "brick" because your legs feel like a sack of bricks on the run for the first 10-15 minutes. I'm doing 30 miles on the bike followed immediately by 10K as fast as I can motor around. I figure about 1:40+ for the bike and about 46+ minutes for the 10K.

I also have about 800 things to do around the house as well tomorrow. My *ss is going to be dragging about 3 in the afternoon. :)
 

TravisBickle

Platinum Member
Dec 3, 2000
2,037
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sports nutrition has been one of my interests and I am disappointed at some of the outdated dogma knocked about here.
low HR training is NOT good use of your training time. True, it was for a long time thought that such 70% training was the key to burning fat, but this idea is superceded by modern data. It is not surprising, either. Neither is getting up and training without eating ideal. That also stands to reason. On waking, at least 50% of your muscle glycogen is depleted. This means that you can't train as hard as you could do, and you won't get as much benefit as you could. And you feel like a dog:p
This is all stuff from newer independent literature than what I have just read above.
Different sports can make different HR for perceived exertion. On a bike I would find it absolutely normal to go all the time in 175-200HR, this is not killing myself. However, with running it is a bit different. Running is efficient for your time.
Also, calories burned during exercise is not the main benefit. If you thrash yourself for 45 minutes or more maybe you will burn off 300kcal extra or something. (There are tables for this, but I can't find them now). Considering average people need 2500kcal a day you'll see that's not the main benefit. The main benefit in exercise for normal purposes is in some cardiovascular fitness, and raising the metabolic level and hormones. This is what burns off more energy at rest, whilst paradoxically making the body more efficient when active.

P.S. if you are looking to lose weight, you would be advised to take 5 or 6 smallish meals every day with regular exercise. Preferably avoid sugary foods which cause blood sugar levels to fluctuate greatly.
 

abracadabra1

Diamond Member
Nov 18, 1999
3,879
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running is by far the best form of cardiovascular exercise that anyone can do.

as far as best cardio goes...i feel it's rowing. does 10X more for me than running ever did. harder, more intense, burns fat quicker.

gl whatever you choose to do.
 

TravisBickle

Platinum Member
Dec 3, 2000
2,037
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I'm sorry if you folks don't like what I wrote because it goes against what you read in your precious books, but you've got to read more current stuff if you're really into fitness and athletics. Books are written by people, not gods... and most book writers don't do real work, but regurgitate other writings.

BTW, looking at olympic swimmers it is self evident they are not shredded like endurance athletes or even bodybuilders. Body Mass Index is an important statistic for a typical athlete. One of the ways of measuring it is how much you float in water. No fat, no float. Do you see why it's not a great idea for swimmers to be cut to shreds?
 

GoldenGuppy

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2000
3,494
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I thought BMI was fairly inaccurate cuz muscle weighs more than fat and some people who are super muscular maybe considered overweight. BMI takes into consideration WEIGHT and computers it w/ height.. that can be very unreliable. Calipers are more accurate/MOST accurate in my point of view.
 

Caliber

Senior member
Oct 9, 1999
509
0
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Travis, could you point me twards some readings that support your view? Its not that i dont belive you, i would like to read up more on it:)
 

BadMuleS

Senior member
Jul 30, 2000
875
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i didnt care to read everyones reply but sex is.. bar none, as long as ur not a twominute in it type uh guy.. ;)
 

BadMuleS

Senior member
Jul 30, 2000
875
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anyone who read all of that by chess9 need to stand up and go outside put a 44 up to ur head giggle a little bit then pull the trigger.. i wish i had the patience to read that whole thing im sure it was good...