Where's the paper industries government bailout

[rudder]

Your industry needs to get together and hire some lobbyists. send some senators on vacation... then you get the bailout.

 

[SigArms08]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SigArms08
Sense of entitlement? We were talking about people who are willing to goto work and perform a task in order to earn an income. Maybe you haven't yet had enough time in the work force and/or exposure to witness how bad management can run a company into the ground.

Obviously the lazy bastards that worked for Enron received their just deserts, eh? But the executives walked away with their pockets lined nicely. It was harsh, but it was the truth.....how liberating that must've been for those employees.
Other minor things like agreements that companies had made with its work force to provide medical benefits and pensions in their retirement. That was part of the working agreement, yet so many companies, years later, are backing out of that. Guess you're pathetic little arguement about "aren't entitled to anything other than what both sides have agreed to" is a COMPLETE LOAD OF SHIT. In short, its okay for companies to back out of their promises, all the while executives are receiving absurd compensation packages for improving the bottom line.
Bring on some more of your corporate apologizing, please. I'm sure that those of us with far more work experience will be glad to hear some more of your Rep. preaching. While your at it, please expand your cheerleading session to include other promises that we'll never see due to poor governance/stewardship (namely, social security). I'm all ears

:roll: listen MORAN, if an employer backs out of an agreed upon benefit - it's covered under what I stated - "what both sides have agreed to" and thus isn't whining. Sheesh

But as to your obvious knee jerk ASSumptions, I do not play apologist for bad management. I've worked for incompetent management and guess what - I left. So yes, I have plenty of work experience despite your lame attempt to marginalize me. But again, you are entitled to nothing more than what is agreed upon - exchanging your labor for their $/compensation. You are not entitled however to your job.

lol, bring up SS? Yeah, pretty much a failed liberal scam and yes, it has been handled badly by politicians because they wanted to buy more votes.

Guess what? I've left places of employment, too...as have many people. But I didn't have 20+ years in any one company. People who do/did, and then discover that the ship has been slowly and discretely sinking, may not have be in a good position to quickly jump around due to external factors. And by that time, it may be too late for them to make up for those false promises.

Seems like the agreement that you speak of is a one way street where management holds its employees to their promises, but the promises that management made in exchange are to be broken at will, usually at the expense of the employees so that management can profit from it. What typically happens when a portion of a firm is outsourced (or better yet, off-shored) to reduce costs? Management gives themselves a bonus, the employees receive an unlubricated shaft. Moral of the story: be a high level manager.

Social Security shouldn't have been a scam if it had been better managed.

It was obvious that the Enron people weren't entitled to their jobs. But management was entitled to huge sums of money. According to your philosophy, is this when an employee is allowed to start complaining (loss of that promised pension, medical benefits, stock options, etc)? Or is the threshold a bit higher?

 

[Babbles]

I'm an analytical chemist that got laid off last week.

The Biotech industry is massively screwed up, and there is NYT article about having some funding for that industry.

LINK

I do not think that government handouts should be considered as some sort of entitlement, however it seems that there may be a sort of bias to support the Big 3 while ignoring many, many other industrials that are in trouble.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: SigArms08

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SigArms08
Sense of entitlement? We were talking about people who are willing to goto work and perform a task in order to earn an income. Maybe you haven't yet had enough time in the work force and/or exposure to witness how bad management can run a company into the ground.

Obviously the lazy bastards that worked for Enron received their just deserts, eh? But the executives walked away with their pockets lined nicely. It was harsh, but it was the truth.....how liberating that must've been for those employees.
Other minor things like agreements that companies had made with its work force to provide medical benefits and pensions in their retirement. That was part of the working agreement, yet so many companies, years later, are backing out of that. Guess you're pathetic little arguement about "aren't entitled to anything other than what both sides have agreed to" is a COMPLETE LOAD OF SHIT. In short, its okay for companies to back out of their promises, all the while executives are receiving absurd compensation packages for improving the bottom line.
Bring on some more of your corporate apologizing, please. I'm sure that those of us with far more work experience will be glad to hear some more of your Rep. preaching. While your at it, please expand your cheerleading session to include other promises that we'll never see due to poor governance/stewardship (namely, social security). I'm all ears

:roll: listen MORAN, if an employer backs out of an agreed upon benefit - it's covered under what I stated - "what both sides have agreed to" and thus isn't whining. Sheesh

But as to your obvious knee jerk ASSumptions, I do not play apologist for bad management. I've worked for incompetent management and guess what - I left. So yes, I have plenty of work experience despite your lame attempt to marginalize me. But again, you are entitled to nothing more than what is agreed upon - exchanging your labor for their $/compensation. You are not entitled however to your job.

lol, bring up SS? Yeah, pretty much a failed liberal scam and yes, it has been handled badly by politicians because they wanted to buy more votes.

Guess what? I've left places of employment, too...as have many people. But I didn't have 20+ years in any one company. People who do/did, and then discover that the ship has been slowly and discretely sinking, may not have be in a good position to quickly jump around due to external factors. And by that time, it may be too late for them to make up for those false promises.

Seems like the agreement that you speak of is a one way street where management holds its employees to their promises, but the promises that management made in exchange are to be broken at will, usually at the expense of the employees so that management can profit from it. What typically happens when a portion of a firm is outsourced (or better yet, off-shored) to reduce costs? Management gives themselves a bonus, the employees receive an unlubricated shaft. Moral of the story: be a high level manager.

Social Security shouldn't have been a scam if it had been better managed.

It was obvious that the Enron people weren't entitled to their jobs. But management was entitled to huge sums of money. According to your philosophy, is this when an employee is allowed to start complaining (loss of that promised pension, medical benefits, stock options, etc)? Or is the threshold a bit higher?

Where are you getting the idea that I am allowing management to get away with not giving what they agreed too? If a person is supposed to get X and management doesn't give them X - there is no excuse for that. I think your knee got in the way...
If a portion is shut down, the agreement ends -that is the nature of employment. You are NOT entitled to that job forever.

SS is and always was a scam. It's cost shifting and something that the Federal gov't should not be involved with in the first place.

No, Enron and other management isn't "entitled" to anything unless their employment contract has exit clauses or the like. I don't like golden parachutes but for people to whine that they didn't get anything and point to someone who did is nothing but whining.

 

[SigArms08]

You keep bringing up the entitlement bit, CAD. Who's talking about being entitled to a position forever just because a person accepted said position? Certainly not me, but do continue to make your own assumptions. Here's my first post in this thread, in response to a reply that you had made about the 'irrational hatred' towards corportations. Trying to explain what I had felt that you may not have understood:
Many may feel slighted because work is continually shipped over seas, or they end up being "rebadged", suffer paycuts, experience a loss of benefits, can't find a job yet the foreign worker visa program continues strong, or just plain laid off, etc.....all the while most CEO's are collecting big bucks to make these "tough" decisions with their accounting buds.

Then further explained with this post:
'Many MAY feel slighted' when they not only do their jobs well, but go above and beyond....only to have the position moved overseas for cheaper labor or the positions evaporate away because of poor company stewardship.

Then tried to evoke some empathy, of which you are seemingly incapable of.
How would you feel? Its not as though CAD work (regardless of the system) can't be moved overseas to save a few bucks. Even though your work most likely earns a profit for your company, that doesn't mean some bean counter isn't balking at what they believe to be outrageous wages.

What a complete waste of time this bantering between us has been.
My apologies to the OP, Puffnstuff.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: SigArms08
You keep bringing up the entitlement bit, CAD. Who's talking about being entitled to a position forever just because a person accepted said position? Certainly not me, but do continue to make your own assumptions. Here's my first post in this thread, in response to a reply that you had made about the 'irrational hatred' towards corportations. Trying to explain what I had felt that you may not have understood:
Many may feel slighted because work is continually shipped over seas, or they end up being "rebadged", suffer paycuts, experience a loss of benefits, can't find a job yet the foreign worker visa program continues strong, or just plain laid off, etc.....all the while most CEO's are collecting big bucks to make these "tough" decisions with their accounting buds.

Then further explained with this post:
'Many MAY feel slighted' when they not only do their jobs well, but go above and beyond....only to have the position moved overseas for cheaper labor or the positions evaporate away because of poor company stewardship.

Then tried to evoke some empathy, of which you are seemingly incapable of.
How would you feel? Its not as though CAD work (regardless of the system) can't be moved overseas to save a few bucks. Even though your work most likely earns a profit for your company, that doesn't mean some bean counter isn't balking at what they believe to be outrageous wages.

What a complete waste of time this bantering between us has been.
My apologies to the OP, Puffnstuff.

I agree it's a waste of time since it's the same old whining that comes from people who seem to not want to grasp reality. Yes, it sucks but life isn't "fair" and jobs move and change - it's just the way it is. It helps nothing to whine about management and offshoring...unless you need to stroke your victim ego...

Meh, you might not fit into what I've posted but there are many here who do and your post just happened to be worded with the same old crap the whiners always complain about.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Babbles
I'm an analytical chemist that got laid off last week.

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
It's the same old whining that comes from people who seem to not want to grasp reality.

Yes, it sucks but life isn't "fair" and jobs move and change - it's just the way it is.

It helps nothing to whine about management and offshoring...unless you need to stroke your victim ego...

A lot of ATers have posted they have been affected by the downturn and lost their jobs.

Vitriols like you should be banned. It's beyond disgusting.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Babbles
I'm an analytical chemist that got laid off last week.

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
It's the same old whining that comes from people who seem to not want to grasp reality.

Yes, it sucks but life isn't "fair" and jobs move and change - it's just the way it is.

It helps nothing to whine about management and offshoring...unless you need to stroke your victim ego...

A lot of ATers have posted they have been affected by the downturn and lost their jobs.

Vitriols like you should be banned. It's beyond disgusting.

Way to strip the context of my statement and insert your own twisted context.

Here's a clue - grow the hell up and realize this is the real world and things aren't fair. But just because it's not "fair" does not mean you have to play victim all the time.