Where's the paper industries government bailout

[Puffnstuff]

:disgust:I'm sick of hearing about how this ceo and that industry need a quick government bailout or they'll go under. The paper mill where I work put a whammy on us this past week by telling us we were being "temporarily" laid off. They tried to squirm around state laws to get out of paying us unemployment and wouldn't call it a permanent layoff so they didn't have to pay us our two months of pay and benefits. At least the state called them on it and made them pay unemployment.

You better think about how many paper items you use during the course of the day. From toilet paper, envelopes, boxes, note pads, the books in your library and napkins paper is all around you. Why is it that the auto industry can get money, the banks get money to lend yet hold onto all of it and when the paper industry needs help nobody is there? Thousands of jobs have been lost already this year in the paper industry yet you don't see anybody in congress rallying to our aid.

I'm just venting a little because it's not right to prop up some domestic industries and not others. Some of my coworkers were in the process of building/buying new homes and cars when this happend. It's hard to stimulate the economy when you're pulling the rug out from under the stimulators.

 

[Genx87]

Well the funny thing is the gambling industry employs as many if not more people than the Auto Industry. Where is their bailout?

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Puffnstuff

You better think about how many paper items you use during the course of the day. From toilet paper, envelopes, boxes, note pads, the books in your library and napkins paper is all around you.

I'm just venting a little because it's not right to prop up some domestic industries and not others.

Some of my coworkers were in the process of building/buying new homes and cars when this happend.

It's hard to stimulate the economy when you're pulling the rug out from under the stimulators.

Have no fear we will just import toilet paper, envelopes, boxes, note pads and napkins from people making $1 a day.

 

[BoomerD]

Yet our country continues to give BILLIONS of $$$ to foreign countries that still hate the USA...

Time to end our foreign aid programs to countries that aren't our "friends" and tell the rest to take care of themselves...Let's start with Israel and the rest of the middle eastern countries....then move on to India and Pakistan. NONE of them could even loosely be considered "our friends," and our continued support is just throwing good money after bad.

Instead, let's spend that money HERE...let's fix AMERICA before we worry about "fixing" other countries.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Yet our country continues to give BILLIONS of $$$ to foreign countries that still hate the USA...

Time to end our foreign aid programs to countries that aren't our "friends" and tell the rest to take care of themselves...Let's start with Israel and the rest of the middle eastern countries....then move on to India and Pakistan. NONE of them could even loosely be considered "our friends," and our continued support is just throwing good money after bad.

Instead, let's spend that money HERE...let's fix AMERICA before we worry about "fixing" other countries.

Start with Israel?

Explain

 

[palehorse]

I was right... the damn "where is my bailout" mentality if f'n viral...

That said, I'm very sorry to hear that you've fallen on hard times. I wish you nothing but the best in your self-motivated recovery, and whatever it is you end up doing as a new job.

Good luck!

PS: NO MORE F'N BAILOUTS!!!

 

[Martin]

Are you a very rich senior exective? Did your greed and incompetence run your company in the the ground? Do you have well-placed friends in Washington? If you answered no to any of the above, there is no bailout for you.

 

[daniel49]

if you are temporrily laid off then offically you should be on standby and not even be required to look for work to collect unemployment. Do your state laws differ somehow?
The slowdown has hit the entire forest products industry, so you' re not alone.
Unfortunately Obama's only plan for you is to hire you to dig a hole and hire someone else to fill it back in.
Hang in there, it will get better eventually.

 

[Puffnstuff]

Originally posted by: Martin
Are you a very rich senior exective? Did your greed and incompetence run your company in the the ground? Do you have well-placed friends in Washington? If you answered no to any of the above, there is no bailout for you.

Why of course not, I'm just a working guy with two kids trying to pay my bills and keep food on the table. Guess that means too bad for me while another bailed out company ceo pleads for several million dollars in bonus pay.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: Puffnstuff

Originally posted by: Martin
Are you a very rich senior exective? Did your greed and incompetence run your company in the the ground? Do you have well-placed friends in Washington? If you answered no to any of the above, there is no bailout for you.

Why of course not, I'm just a working guy with two kids trying to pay my bills and keep food on the table. Guess that means too bad for me while another bailed out company ceo pleads for several million dollars in bonus pay.

I have a friend in Ohio who works for a plant that makes fluorescent light bulbs.

The company is about to start round 2 of layoffs...next week.

The rape of America by the corporations continues.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: BoomerD


The rape of America by the corporations continues.

:roll:

I know it's not just you, but you were the last post...

Where is all this irrational hatred for corporations coming from? Yes there are some "bad" corporations/CEOs but really it's just a few that you could even make a decent argument against. Just because a company goes under or lays people off does not mean they are "raping" anyone.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: BoomerD


The rape of America by the corporations continues.

:roll:

I know it's not just you, but you were the last post...

Where is all this irrational hatred for corporations coming from? Yes there are some "bad" corporations/CEOs but really it's just a few that you could even make a decent argument against. Just because a company goes under or lays people off does not mean they are "raping" anyone.

For me, it's the whole "Privatize the gains, socialize the losses" thing...coupled with the corporate shield that allows CEO's to run a business into the ground...without his personal assets being at risk...

While I understand that the original purpose is to allow stockholders to invest without having any liability for losses beyond the amount of their investment, allowing Corporate Executives to rape and pilage the company without their personal assets being used to cover their misdeeds or poor business skills is just wrong.

The entire corporate structure and laws governing it needs to be re-written to hold these executives more accountable for their performance.

If a sole-proprietorship business has financial problems, the owner stands to lose everything. Why should the "owners" who run corporations be less liable for their losses?

The rape of America by the corporations continues.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: BoomerD


The rape of America by the corporations continues.

:roll:

I know it's not just you, but you were the last post...

Where is all this irrational hatred for corporations coming from? Yes there are some "bad" corporations/CEOs but really it's just a few that you could even make a decent argument against. Just because a company goes under or lays people off does not mean they are "raping" anyone.

For me, it's the whole "Privatize the gains, socialize the losses" thing...coupled with the corporate shield that allows CEO's to run a business into the ground...without his personal assets being at risk...

While I understand that the original purpose is to allow stockholders to invest without having any liability for losses beyond the amount of their investment, allowing Corporate Executives to rape and pilage the company without their personal assets being used to cover their misdeeds or poor business skills is just wrong.

The entire corporate structure and laws governing it needs to be re-written to hold these executives more accountable for their performance.

If a sole-proprietorship business has financial problems, the owner stands to lose everything. Why should the "owners" who run corporations be less liable for their losses?

The rape of America by the corporations continues.

The problem with your positions is that they aren't the "owners" - they are the CEO/management.

I understand the private/socialize issue you brought up and it disgusts me too(thus against bailouts in principle).

However, how exactly is that "raping" america by Corporations? Congress has the power to say "NO" to socializing losses but seems to lack the intelligence and/or spine to do it. So IF your premise was alright(and I'm still not sold on it) - wouldn't it be Congress that is raping America by enabling corporations to socialize losses?

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: BoomerD


The rape of America by the corporations continues.

:roll:

I know it's not just you, but you were the last post...

Where is all this irrational hatred for corporations coming from? Yes there are some "bad" corporations/CEOs but really it's just a few that you could even make a decent argument against. Just because a company goes under or lays people off does not mean they are "raping" anyone.

For me, it's the whole "Privatize the gains, socialize the losses" thing...coupled with the corporate shield that allows CEO's to run a business into the ground...without his personal assets being at risk...

While I understand that the original purpose is to allow stockholders to invest without having any liability for losses beyond the amount of their investment, allowing Corporate Executives to rape and pilage the company without their personal assets being used to cover their misdeeds or poor business skills is just wrong.

The entire corporate structure and laws governing it needs to be re-written to hold these executives more accountable for their performance.

If a sole-proprietorship business has financial problems, the owner stands to lose everything. Why should the "owners" who run corporations be less liable for their losses?

The rape of America by the corporations continues.

The problem with your positions is that they aren't the "owners" - they are the CEO/management.

I understand the private/socialize issue you brought up and it disgusts me too(thus against bailouts in principle).

However, how exactly is that "raping" america by Corporations? Congress has the power to say "NO" to socializing losses but seems to lack the intelligence and/or spine to do it. So IF your premise was alright(and I'm still not sold on it) - wouldn't it be Congress that is raping America by enabling corporations to socialize losses?

I too disagree with the bailouts of the financial sector. They made bad business decisions...let them live (or die) with them.

Too often, the CEO's and other executives are large stockholders in the corporations they manage...that makes them "owners" of the corporations...and they SHOULD be held responsible for their business decisions.

 

[ProfJohn]

Just wait till they start printing all the money it will take to cover these bailouts. That should keep you paper guys busy.

PS step dad retired from SD Warren aka Scott paper years ago when they closed the Mobile AL plant.

 

[Toastedlightly]

I lucked out an am looking forward to a coop w/ Appleton paper this summer and fall.

 

[nageov3t]

the US paper industry has been on a decline for the past twenty years... northern NH is filled with hallowed out mill towns.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: loki8481
the US paper industry has been on a decline for the past twenty years... northern NH is filled with hallowed out mill towns.

Same is true up here in Canada. Not sure who is producing all the Paper these days, but it seems to no longer be North Americans. Then again, I suppose it's possible that Demand has simply fallen that much. I dunno though, I haven't noticed a decline of Paper in my personal life. :shrug;

 

[Veramocor]

Originally posted by: Puffnstuff
:disgust:I'm sick of hearing about how this ceo and that industry need a quick government bailout or they'll go under. The paper mill where I work put a whammy on us this past week by telling us we were being "temporarily" laid off. They tried to squirm around state laws to get out of paying us unemployment and wouldn't call it a permanent layoff so they didn't have to pay us our two months of pay and benefits. At least the state called them on it and made them pay unemployment.

You better think about how many paper items you use during the course of the day. From toilet paper, envelopes, boxes, note pads, the books in your library and napkins paper is all around you. Why is it that the auto industry can get money, the banks get money to lend yet hold onto all of it and when the paper industry needs help nobody is there? Thousands of jobs have been lost already this year in the paper industry yet you don't see anybody in congress rallying to our aid.

I'm just venting a little because it's not right to prop up some domestic industries and not others. Some of my coworkers were in the process of building/buying new homes and cars when this happend. It's hard to stimulate the economy when you're pulling the rug out from under the stimulators.

I got into the paper industry about 2001, I got out last year. It definately has been downhill since then. U.S. is still doing better than Cananda and Scandanavia.

Main problems are capital replacement is below 75% and there is no investment. An average mill in the US can produce 1000-2000 tons per day of pulp on a single line, while the newest mills in Brazil, Chile and Uruguay are doing 3000-4000+ tons a day.

Secondary issues are energy costs and tree growth rate. Colder climates which were the innovators of P&P are having a tough time (US, Cananda, and Scandanavia).

Market outlook predictions for US

Tissue paper should always be safe in the US because shipping it is a problem (very high volume, low weight, low price).

Also mills that speciallize in hardwood pulps will have problems as south america Eucalyptus grows on 8 year rotations (compared to 20 years US).

Recyle mills have to compete not just based on products but with China for recycled paper. China demands so much it raises the prices of the recyled paper and lowers the quality (incentivies more recycling which caputures lower quality waste streams).

Softwood pulp is the safest, relatively, no country can match our pine tree forests in size and qaulity of the wood, except Russia, which hasn't entered the market to any extent.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: loki8481
the US paper industry has been on a decline for the past twenty years... northern NH is filled with hallowed out mill towns.

and you happy and proud of this?

 

[Puffnstuff]

The mill where I work is a recycle mill with one of the leanest work force structures in the industry. Our shipping department, where I work, is the most efficient in the industry. If anyone is interested this is the place.
http://www.wikimapia.org/14453...e-Mill-Recycling-Plant

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Puffnstuff
The mill where I work is a recycle mill with one of the leanest work force structures in the industry.

Our shipping department, where I work, is the most efficient in the industry.

Apparently not lean enough.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Puffnstuff
The mill where I work is a recycle mill with one of the leanest work force structures in the industry. Our shipping department, where I work, is the most efficient in the industry. If anyone is interested this is the place.
http://www.wikimapia.org/14453...e-Mill-Recycling-Plant

Ooh, head NW and work at Bacardi!

 

[sandorski]

Damn, that Map is way cool.

 

[Puffnstuff]

Bacardi has a plant about 4 miles from me.