Where have our Conservative members gone?

[realibrad]

The forum overall.

Why? We have a section just for that type of thing.

 

[cytg111]

Most of Europe has public transport publicly owned.

Not without it shares of problems though... and some attempts to privatize some of it with equal sized problems.. The thing about enterprises is that no matter private or state, is not guranteed to be a major success.. Also there is a vast difference in running for public service and running for profit..

 

[cytg111]

We can blame others, but, the vast majority of the responsibility is on those that did the actions.

True that, I know I share mine..

 

[WelshBloke]

I would imagine public transport is publicly owned

Well it should be, and I hope it is again soon in the UK.

To be fair though, just because that is the way it is, does not mean that is the way it ought to be. If you are going to have it public, it requires a watchful eye to prevent waste. I would bet most of those systems in Europe have some controversy about things like quality, waste, upkeep ect.

And privately owned things don't have waste? Just diverting money to shareholders not the running of the business is a waste. Private ownership is fundamentally flawed if the aim is to bring a service.

 

[WelshBloke]

Not without it shares of problems though... and some attempts to privatize some of it with equal sized problems.. The thing about enterprises is that no matter private or state, is not guranteed to be a major success.. Also there is a vast difference in running for public service and running for profit..

Thing is that when massive private enterprises that are vital to the functioning of a country go wrong they will be bailed out by government. And they know this and run things accordingly.

 

[BAMAVOO]

I personally have never seen any of the moderators here mod a post purely because they disagreed with it. I doubt you have either.

can't say, it would be a mod callout.

 

[BAMAVOO]

When a judge finds actual criminal activities, demonstrated by trial and conviction, are directed at the order of an individual, then that individual in this case "1", then only someone who applauds criminals can defend him as you were. As an example from the past, it is a fact that the Nazi's took a nation of starving people, not a metaphor, but really starving, and improved the economy, made it into a world power, and =========================== more. Before you reach for "so Trump is now a Nazi, I'm talking about economics, and Hitler did far more than Trump has in the things you value. So we could, as you have, focus on what you consider important and ignore the rest as many Germans did.

The above is historically accurate and the general support of Trump is to ignore everything for claims of economic improvement. As Hatch says crimes aren't important as long as Trump does what he and apparently you want.

Such lines of reasoning was a Conservative value in the lifetime of some. Barry Goldwater for all the nutty nuke guy he was would have your idol's head on a figurative pikestaff and have accurately seen him for the Putin puppet he has turned out to be.

You had better pray to the Golden Calf that prosecutors realize that there is no legal or constitutional prohibition which prevents indictment for crimes while in office.

So will you attack me as you say others do when I cite the facts of the matter? Not the alternative ones, but documented reality. I wonder, but not very much, about that.

we have to let it play out. there i nothing right now, so we just wait.

 

[realibrad]

Well it should be, and I hope it is again soon in the UK.


And privately owned things don't have waste? Just diverting money to shareholders not the running of the business is a waste. Private ownership is fundamentally flawed if the aim is to bring a service.

The waste from Public ownership happens in ways less obvious, but, equally if not more costly. Private ownership drives action where profits can be had. Public looks for what it thinks should be done. I brought up the Chile bus system as that was a great example.

Went from being a net profit of hundreds of millions to losing hundreds of millions after it was taken over. Accountability is a big problem for public owned things. Most people don't care until something big happens, which means if the quality goes down slowly its often missed.

Private ownership has people always looking.

 

[WelshBloke]

The waste from Public ownership happens in ways less obvious, but, equally if not more costly. Private ownership drives action where profits can be had. Public looks for what it thinks should be done. I brought up the Chile bus system as that was a great example.

You brought Chile up because it supports your position. Both me and you live in countries that are more like France and Germany than Chile.

Accountability is a big problem for public owned things. Most people don't care until something big happens, which means if the quality goes down slowly its often missed.

Private ownership has people always looking.

Accountability and oversight is more of a problem with private ownership. Private companies exist to make a profit. They dont exist to get Doris from her little village in the country to the post office to get her pension.
Private companies have the problem that they aren't there to provide the services that are needed, they are there to make money and the greatest profit is usually not in providing the greatest service.

Private ownership when working perfectly isnt concerned with giving services to the public.
Public ownership when working perfectly is all about the services not the profit.

So private ownership is fundamentally flawed from the outset for some things.

 

[interchange]

there is no honest debating here. no matter what a conservative posts, we are idiots, uneducated, sister humpers. Trump sucks and should be impeached or imprisoned...You guys just keep sucking each others toes while Trump continues to improve the economy, make the country safer and ==================== tons more.....

I will make no bones about Trump sucking and needing to be impeached. If you would like, I can lay out arguments for it.

As for the rest of the stuff, I don't agree with that attitude and find it disturbing how readily people can call out that divisive stance and interpersonal nastiness in Trump without recognizing it within themselves. Dehumanization is wrong independent of any moral, factual, financial, intellectual, or other advantage someone may have over someone else.

 

[fskimospy]

we have to let it play out. there i nothing right now, so we just wait.

I mean there is Trump’s personal attorney testifying under oath that Trump committed multiple felonies and there is AMI attesting to the same as part of an immunity agreement. Combined with this and other evidence federal prosecutors stated in a court filing that they believe Trump committed at least one felony.

While he hasn’t been convicted yet that’s about a light year away from nothing. Career federal prosecutors have concluded he is a felon.

 

[Blackjack200]

Accountability and oversight is more of a problem with private ownership.

Apart from the points you made, I'll add that I've seen enormous amounts of waste in private industry. Industries with high profit margins and high barriers to entry don't have much need to streamline their operations as they make plenty of money anyway.

 

[dank69]

https://www.payscale.com/data/gender-pay-gap

That gives a break down of how to adjust.

https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/g...ls_in_the_financial_and_corporate_sectors.pdf

That follows people with MBAs

https://web.stanford.edu/~diamondr/UberPayGap.pdf

That follows people that work for Uber.


All the same conclusion. The Uber one was neat.

Like I said, anyone can throw data around. What argument you are trying to make is what is important. Regardless, this is not the place to argue about pay gap or whatever.

 

[WelshBloke]

Apart from the points you made, I'll add that I've seen enormous amounts of waste in private industry. Industries with high profit margins and high barriers to entry don't have much need to streamline their operations as they make plenty of money anyway.

And a lot of that waste is what keeps the board happy.
All expenses trips to exotic destinations for meetings, lobbying politicians, company expense accounts for wining and dining...

 

[interchange]

Like I said, anyone can throw data around. What argument you are trying to make is what is important. Regardless, this is not the place to argue about pay gap or whatever.

I'll agree with you in principle. I do see relatively little use of evidence here or critical examination of evidence presented. Often people will point out a valid concern about presented evidence and use that to justify nullification of the underlying argument. I would very much like to see a collaboration where people may have differing views but use this platform to explore them and create a more robust body of evidence. Since the discussion focuses on the sociopolitical here, there are few things where evidence can provide a solid answer. I find that aspect of humanity and our struggle with uncertainty about anything fascinating.

 

[realibrad]

Like I said, anyone can throw data around. What argument you are trying to make is what is important. Regardless, this is not the place to argue about pay gap or whatever.

Lol okay then.

 

[realibrad]

You brought Chile up because it supports your position. Both me and you live in countries that are more like France and Germany than Chile.



Accountability and oversight is more of a problem with private ownership. Private companies exist to make a profit. They dont exist to get Doris from her little village in the country to the post office to get her pension.
Private companies have the problem that they aren't there to provide the services that are needed, they are there to make money and the greatest profit is usually not in providing the greatest service.

Private ownership when working perfectly isnt concerned with giving services to the public.
Public ownership when working perfectly is all about the services not the profit.

So private ownership is fundamentally flawed from the outset for some things.

Services to the public in this case means getting others to pay for your extra expense to get mail to your house.

In a private world, the extra cost of delivering mail to a house in the country is paid by the individual. In the Public world, the cost is paid by others.

The service that you are talking about should bring a benefit larger than the cost. What is best is to make things public when its hard to capture the benefit through direct usage. The inverse is true too, which is why private solutions for pollution are very rare.

I would not say that private or public is fundamentally flawed, so much as there are trade-offs that we have to consider.

As for accountability and oversight, I'm not sure I understand how a profit motive works into this. Its true that their goal is profit, but, not providing a service to Doris is untrue. They would provide a mail service, but, they would charge her the amount that it costs plus some overhead. Under a public system, you would eat the cost the vast majority of the time.

 

[Jhhnn]

I personally have never seen any of the moderators here mod a post purely because they disagreed with it. I doubt you have either.

Well, yeh, but he feels oppressed. IIRC, I've only gone to the mods once in all the years I've been here. They generally exercise a light touch & I thank them for their efforts.

 

[Jhhnn]

Whoever introduced the Bus system in Chile to the conversation needs to provide some linkage.

 

[mikeymikec]

can't say, it would be a mod callout.

I doubt it (since you wouldn't be criticising moderator policy, you would be quoting a post), but PM me with a link showing when this has happened.

 

[WelshBloke]

Its true that their goal is profit, but, not providing a service to Doris is untrue. They would provide a mail service, but, they would charge her the amount that it costs plus some overhead. Under a public system, you would eat the cost the vast majority of the time.

Private companies withdraw services that are unprofitable all the time!

 

[realibrad]

Whoever introduced the Bus system in Chile to the conversation needs to provide some linkage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transantiago

https://www.citylab.com/transportat...th-their-public-transportation-system/518685/

https://www.economist.com/the-americas/2017/04/12/santiagos-transport-system-is-sputtering

The result was the new “Transantiago” public bus system, rolled out on February 10, 2007, during the summer vacation period, when Santiago seems asleep. Nonetheless, almost overnight, the new “planned” system cut mass transit ridership, increased congestion everywhere in the city, and tripled average commute times from forty minutes to two hours. As President Michelle Bachelet later said in a speech, “It is not common for a president to stand before the nation and say ‘Things haven’t gone well…. But that is exactly what I want to say in the case of Transantiago…. The inhabitants of Santiago, especially the poorest, deserve an apology.”


The roll-out was not a total disaster, however. The new planned system did solve one of the major problems it had targeted: profits were eliminated overnight. Where the old system had made $60 million a year, the new planned system immediately began to lose, and has continued to lose, more than $600 million per year

The system still has problems.

But Transantiago is sputtering. Fare evasion is rampant, journeys are getting slower and the state has spent billions of dollars to prop up private bus operators. Passengers sometimes wait ages at stops scrawled with graffiti with no inkling of when the next bus will arrive. Espacio Público, a think-tank, calls Transantiago Chile’s worst public-policy project since the country returned to democracy in 1990.

 

[realibrad]

Private companies withdraw services that are unprofitable all the time!

Yep, and Public services continue. I think I read recently that the UK subway system is running a 1bn deficit this year or last.

Yep.

https://www.ft.com/content/585f99b6-1887-11e8-9376-4a6390addb44

Also losing riders.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/tfl-finances-transport-for-london-deficit-passenger-numbers

 

[Jhhnn]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transantiago

https://www.citylab.com/transportat...th-their-public-transportation-system/518685/

https://www.economist.com/the-americas/2017/04/12/santiagos-transport-system-is-sputtering



The system still has problems.

So it's not a publically owned & operated system at all, but rather one where services are contracted out to various for profit operators. No wonder it's a mess.

 

[realibrad]

So it's not a publically owned & operated system at all, but rather one where services are contracted out to various for profit operators. No wonder it's a mess.

Where in the world did you read that?