Where did the heathens go before Jesus?

[totalnoob]

That Ayn Rand quote is great. I'm generally not a big fan of hers, but that bit was brilliant.

It is one of my favs.. I don't agree with her on everything either, but she absolutely nailed it there.

 

[Cattlegod]

This is a good question. What about a kid who was abandoned and raised by wolves? Is that kid condemed to hell? That kid has no concept of god or jesus or anything.

 

[Regs]

The bible teaches us no man is born without original sin. We are all imperfect beings and our creator in his mysterious ways wanted it this way.


There are things that science can't even explain and we still have natural occurring phenomena's. The only thing I know is that were are the only creatures in this world that question our existence and our reason for being here while other animals or creatures do not have that luxury. It is a cruel burden we all must carry .

 

[shiner]

This is a good question. What about a kid who was abandoned and raised by wolves? Is that kid condemed to hell? That kid has no concept of god or jesus or anything.

 

[totalnoob]

The bible teaches us no man is born without original sin. We are all imperfect beings and our creator in his mysterious ways wanted it this way.

4:15 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZJ-_OTvsqo

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

totalnoob, it's pointless to argue. The common defense is that, while the Bible does contain timeless truths, some of it was written to address the morality of its time. The New Testament was a way to clean house a bit. Now the idea is that believers can sort of pick and choose those Old Testament rules, commandments, and guidelines that weren't explicitly overturned by the NT. Plus, you can decide just how literal your interpretation will be.

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

There are things that science can't even explain and we still have natural occurring phenomena's.

The present inability of science to explain some phenomenon is not evidence of the supernatural, God, or the validity of spiritual belief. It's this kind of attitude that is most frustrating to reasonable people. Ancient gods were born of the same proclivity to explain or name things that are not understood, and yet most faiths these days would find the idea of a Rain God or Sun God quite ridiculous.

 

[RadiclDreamer]

Technically unbaptized babies went to limbo. IIRC they were there for eternity. It wasn't a bad or good place... just a place.

Thats pretty much what purgatory is

 

[RadiclDreamer]

I think regardless of your opinions on the subject, Crono is definitely well educated on the subject and deserves a little respect for sharing that as non condecendingly as possible. If you disagree thats fine, but I think some are being a little aggressive and disrespectful.

 

[Regs]

The present inability of science to explain some phenomenon is not evidence of the supernatural, God, or the validity of spiritual belief. It's this kind of attitude that is most frustrating to reasonable people. Ancient gods were born of the same proclivity to explain or name things that are not understood, and yet most faiths these days would find the idea of a Rain God or Sun God quite ridiculous.

I am not arguing if man came before god. All I am saying that there are things out there beyond human comprehension.

 

[surfsatwerk]

I am not arguing if man came before god. All I am saying that there are things out there beyond human comprehension.

Like interspecies erotica?

 

[SlitheryDee]

I think regardless of your opinions on the subject, Crono is definitely well educated on the subject and deserves a little respect for sharing that as non condecendingly as possible. If you disagree thats fine, but I think some are being a little aggressive and disrespectful.

Indeed, I have the utmost respect for Crono and think he's a great guy. I would never disrespect him personally. However, I will disagree with him and attack the ideas he puts forward that I think are incorrect, as I would anyone else. I don't know why people ever reduce themselves to personal attacks actually. That usually marks the time when constructive debate ends.

 

[darkxshade]

Technically unbaptized babies went to limbo. IIRC they were there for eternity. It wasn't a bad or good place... just a place.

Thats pretty much what purgatory is

Do infants age in purgatory? Do they get to be raised and given a chance of free will to decide if they are a believer or not? If so who raises them? If not, how can they ever develop a conscience and the ability to make rational thought to a point where they can make choices? And isn't it sort of pointless if you die at birth end up in purgatory, then raised there, I mean how would you NOT believe at that point? The only reason we don't believe in the real world is because there is no definitive proof.

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

All I am saying that there are things out there beyond human comprehension.

Scientists take that as a challenge. The faithful give up and call it God.

 

[ichy]

Thats pretty much what purgatory is

Except that purgatory is a temporary stop for those who're eventually headed to heaven.

 

[Connoisseur]

Scientists take that as a challenge. The faithful give up and call it God.

Wow that's a very well-written succinct response. I'm going to quote that to friends if you don't mind.

 

[totalnoob]

Except that purgatory is a temporary stop for those who're eventually headed to heaven.

I love how people talk about this as if it were a matter of fact..when we know exactly when the concept was INVENTED by someone's imagination..lol

P.S. What happens to all the babies that eventually get sent to heaven? Do they exist as immortal babies for eternity? Or are they given fully formed adult bodies (with no memories of a life unlived)? Neither option seems very appealing to me.

 

[Connoisseur]

No, being saved is about God chosing you and then you chosing to obey God out of gratitude. It's being delivered from the grasp of sin and being granted eternal life in the kingdom of God.

If you see sin as "freedom", then you are missing the reality of life. People choose sin all the time, and it leads to pain, not joy. There is joy in this world, but only in the bounds of God's declared will according to His word.

I liken it to how societies operate. Laws are put in place to protect. Do they limit us if we obey them? Yes. But without any laws, there is only chaos and despair as people destroy and take and take without regard. True, there is injustice in some human laws, but that's the very result of human fallibility. There is no such corruption in the nature of God.

True freedom is living according to the standards of God.

Crono, as an FYI I think at least one of your statements was well covered by the Ayn Rand piece:

Crono: But without any laws, there is only chaos and despair as people destroy and take and take without regard.

Ayn Rand: Do not hide behind the cowardly evasion that man is born with free will, but with a “tendency” to evil. A free will saddled with a tendency is like a game with loaded dice. It forces man to struggle through the effort of playing, to bear responsibility and pay for the game, but the decision is weighted in favor of a tendency that he had no power to escape. If the tendency is of his choice, he cannot possess it at birth; if it is not of his choice, his will is not free.

You imply that in the absence of firm written-down laws, people would be inherently evil. I disagree. I think people will be people with no inclination towards "good" or "evil" other than their own personality and situation.

 

[gaidensensei]

Scientists take that as a challenge. The faithful give up and call it God.

They argue in the church (probably depends on which institution one goes to) that there are plenty of scientists whom also are faithful in religion.

 

[ichy]

I love how people talk about this as if it were a matter of fact..when we know exactly when the concept was INVENTED by someone's imagination..lol

P.S. What happens to all the babies that eventually get sent to heaven? Do they exist as immortal babies for eternity? Or are they given fully formed adult bodies (with no memories of a life unlived)? Neither option seems very appealing to me.

Sorry, I should've said "according to the myth.."

Don't worry, I don't buy into any of that nonsense

 

[child of wonder]

I love how people talk about this as if it were a matter of fact..when we know exactly when the concept was INVENTED by someone's imagination..lol

P.S. What happens to all the babies that eventually get sent to heaven? Do they exist as immortal babies for eternity? Or are they given fully formed adult bodies (with no memories of a life unlived)? Neither option seems very appealing to me.

Being an agnostic atheist and my parents devout Christians, my dad and I had a conversation the other day that will stick with me forever and stands out as an adherent "inventing" things to explain logical inconsistencies of their faith.

I asked him if it bothered him that if his religious beliefs are correct, his only son would go to hell and be subject to an eternity of unimaginable torment.

"That would be your choice, not mine," he said.

"How," I asked "could you enjoy your rewards in heaven knowing that I was being tortured forever?"

He thought for a moment, obviously never having thought about it before.

"God can make all my loved ones appear to be in heaven or he can erase them from my memory entirely."

Appalled, I said "if God can just make your loved ones appear in heaven to trick you, then what's the point of all this? If God is going to manipulate your senses so you won't feel bad then that makes life pretty meaningless, doesn't it? On the other hand, if you believe God is going to erase me from your memory so you can enjoy heaven burden free, then God is a cruel and sadistic son of a bitch."

Like he usually does when I've made an uncomfortable point, he changed the subject.

 

[FeuerFrei]

Sheol. Same as after Jesus.

Sheol (death/the grave) itself will be cast into hell.

The counterpart for the righteous, heaven, itself joins with the new earth (physical universe).

So neither heaven nor hell (sheol, or hades being the greek word used in the NT) is complete until the resurrection of the just and unjust (yet future).

And faith in God is what saves, whether it was looking forward to Christ (faith in God was counted as righteousness, if you read account of Abraham who never saw the coming of Christ) or looking back on it in the times since Christ. The sacrificial system that God gave to the Israelites was emblematic, pointing to the redemption of human beings by His death on the cross. The blood of bulls and goats never did, and could never, take away sin.

Right-o.

It was faith in the coming Savior that 'saved' the pre-incarnation folks. Plus animal sacrifices had some efficacy, because "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin" and the Lamb of God had yet to die. Animal blood couldn't wash away sin, but they could cover it, in God's eyes.

 

[FeuerFrei]

Being an agnostic atheist and my parents devout Christians, my dad and I had a conversation the other day that will stick with me forever and stands out as an adherent "inventing" things to explain logical inconsistencies of their faith.

I asked him if it bothered him that if his religious beliefs are correct, his only son would go to hell and be subject to an eternity of unimaginable torment.

"That would be your choice, not mine," he said.

"How," I asked "could you enjoy your rewards in heaven knowing that I was being tortured forever?"

He thought for a moment, obviously never having thought about it before.

"God can make all my loved ones appear to be in heaven or he can erase them from my memory entirely."

Appalled, I said "if God can just make your loved ones appear in heaven to trick you, then what's the point of all this? If God is going to manipulate your senses so you won't feel bad then that makes life pretty meaningless, doesn't it? On the other hand, if you believe God is going to erase me from your memory so you can enjoy heaven burden free, then God is a cruel and sadistic son of a bitch."

Like he usually does when I've made an uncomfortable point, he changed the subject.

Well, you asked him to "invent" something on conditions in heaven so he hazarded a guess at what it would be like. Some topics the Bible doesn't cover directly so you have to decide what seems logical based on what you do know.
I think the Bible does imply there will be sorrow and weeping initially in heaven because of loved ones left behind or opportunities Christians failed to take. However, it says God will wipe away all tears from their eyes and there will no more sorrow or death or crying or any more pain.

I personally don't agree with your father. I don't think God will wipe out all memory or fake your appearance in heaven. Just doesn't seem likely.

 

[child of wonder]

Well, you asked him to "invent" something on conditions in heaven so he hazarded a guess at what it would be like. Some topics the Bible doesn't cover directly so you have to decide what seems logical based on what you do know.
I think the Bible does imply there will be sorrow and weeping initially in heaven because of loved ones left behind or opportunities Christians failed to take. However, it says God will wipe away all tears from their eyes and there will no more sorrow or death or crying or any more pain.

I personally don't agree with your father. I don't think God will wipe out all memory or fake your appearance in heaven. Just doesn't seem likely.

I didn't ask him to invent anything. I asked how could he enjoy eternal happiness knowing I was suffering?

He chose to invent something rather than say either:

A. He could not completely enjoy heaven knowing I was suffering
B. He would enjoy heaven despite the knowledge I was suffering

His solution was to say God would wave his magic wand and make it all better since answering A means, being a human being, he could not enjoy an eternal existence knowing his son was suffering or B he could be callous enough to ignore my suffering and enjoy himself anyway.

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

I don't think God will wipe out all memory or fake your appearance in heaven. Just doesn't seem likely.

But it is likely that there is a heaven in the first place, and your immortal soul may go there upon your worldly death? This all seems like a wickedly funny guessing game, like the LOST discussion threads.