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Where are the damn Fermi reviews already!?

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tviceman

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2008
6,733
513
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I am mostly interested to see how Nvidia will deploy their dual GPU cards.

LOL @ this limitation of one 6 pin and one 8 pin for that purpose. Two Giant 500m2 chips limited by 300 watts. :D (But what the heck do I know? I am not an engineer)
GTX 275 TDP = 219 watts
GTX 295 TDP = 289 watts


They were cutting close with the 295 and many probably also wondered how they'd come up with a dual solution at less than 300w tdp when the 275 was already at 219 watts.
 

terentenet

Senior member
Nov 8, 2005
387
0
0
What's the hype with Eyefinity? Are there that many multi monitor users out there? I have a single 30" and I don't see myself gaming on more than that. I wouldn't like the bezels cutting the image.
I see 3D Vision as a much nicer tech. I don't know why, but when enabled, the monitor looks much bigger to the eye. It's really immersive and you could game on a 19" just as good as you would game on a 30" with 3D Vision off.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
26,840
280
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Perhaps this is more a Candian thing, but the thing that annoys most me is that due to Fermi being so slow to come out, there's basically absolutely nothing worth buying from nV from pretty much $100 & up.

All the old 200 series card are hard to find & horribly overpriced.

Basically there's no competition other than in the low end crap cards, so AMD can charge whatever they feel like for everything they're selling.

I want an HD5850/5870, but i really want them to be cheaper, & until nV gets something out i don't see it happening. D:
The problem I have is that the 5850/5870 is a waste of time for anyone. There's no DX11 games that are worth playing and the performance of these cards is wasted on no games. So even if you can afford $400 on the card it's still not worth it.

I'm going to agree with MJinZ, after Diablo 3 I think PC gaming is going to die off while developers just do PS3/Xbox 360 games.

I've gotten to the point now where I don't really care if there's never another video card released. They push all these wizbang features that never get used in games and when they do, the features being used kill framerates. I don't care so much about the cards as I do about quality games being released. The few in the past couple months that have come out are available on consoles as well and this hurts the PC version in some ways.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
26,840
280
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They are not expensive. They might not be as cheap as the RV770 (forcing GT200 to drop), but they are in-line with previous generations and are cheaper than Nvidia counterparts today.
No, they ARE expensive. The MSRP at launch was not the price they are selling at. I can go buy one on any hardware site out there, but I refuse to for 2 reasons.

1) NO GAMES
2) It's too much money (I got my GTX295 as a step up from a card I bought open box)
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
26,840
280
126
What's the hype with Eyefinity? Are there that many multi monitor users out there? I have a single 30" and I don't see myself gaming on more than that. I wouldn't like the bezels cutting the image.
I see 3D Vision as a much nicer tech. I don't know why, but when enabled, the monitor looks much bigger to the eye. It's really immersive and you could game on a 19" just as good as you would game on a 30" with 3D Vision off.
It's the new woopdy doo wizbang fancy feature that has a fancy name and you know, you have to have!

Plus you know you will probably want to Crossfire your cards in order to get acceptable frame rates too.

I'm with you, it's gimmicky to the max not to mention overly expensive to do.
 

akugami

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2005
4,633
69
91
No, they ARE expensive. The MSRP at launch was not the price they are selling at. I can go buy one on any hardware site out there, but I refuse to for 2 reasons.

1) NO GAMES
2) It's too much money (I got my GTX295 as a step up from a card I bought open box)
In a way, you're right but in another way you're wrong.

From an absolute perspective, all video cards are expensive. A lot of people (hell, most people), can't afford to spend $200+ on a darned video card much less $600 or more. So you bought your video card as an open box, meaning slightly cheaper, and then stepped up to a GTX295. It was probably less than an original retail priced GTX295 overall. You still paid a very high price for that card. In that sense, even your GTX295 is overpriced.

However, the reality is that most businesses are for profit. At the end of the day, and judging from the finances of AMD's GPU department, the Radeon 5xxx series are priced right about where they need to be as far as MSRP goes. It is not really the fault of AMD that TSMC has had issues with their 40nm process that has limited supply and it is not AMD's fault that there is no DX11 competitor to the Radeon 5xxx series. This has created a situation where the Radeon 5xxx series is in demand and with low availability. Anyone who even gives the slightest thought to economic factors will realize that low supply and high demand will mean higher prices.

But even with that said, the Radeon 5xxx series are priced nowhere near as outrageously as nVidia's Geforce 8 series, 9 series and GT200's were. From that perspective, and considering the performance, the Radeon 5xxx series are not overpriced.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
26,840
280
126
In a way, you're right but in another way you're wrong.

From an absolute perspective, all video cards are expensive. A lot of people (hell, most people), can't afford to spend $200+ on a darned video card much less $600 or more. So you bought your video card as an open box, meaning slightly cheaper, and then stepped up to a GTX295. It was probably less than an original retail priced GTX295 overall. You still paid a very high price for that card. In that sense, even your GTX295 is overpriced.

However, the reality is that most businesses are for profit. At the end of the day, and judging from the finances of AMD's GPU department, the Radeon 5xxx series are priced right about where they need to be as far as MSRP goes. It is not really the fault of AMD that TSMC has had issues with their 40nm process that has limited supply and it is not AMD's fault that there is no DX11 competitor to the Radeon 5xxx series. This has created a situation where the Radeon 5xxx series is in demand and with low availability. Anyone who even gives the slightest thought to economic factors will realize that low supply and high demand will mean higher prices.

But even with that said, the Radeon 5xxx series are priced nowhere near as outrageously as nVidia's Geforce 8 series, 9 series and GT200's were. From that perspective, and considering the performance, the Radeon 5xxx series are not overpriced.
You're right however the problem is you forgot #1. No games. DX11 is wasted, the power is wasted.
 

Rebel44

Senior member
Jun 19, 2006
742
1
76
You're right however the problem is you forgot #1. No games. DX11 is wasted, the power is wasted.
New AvP will be released in just a few days.

Extra performance is also very usefull for those who want eyefinity setup (in my case 3x 1920x1200).

Btw: most people dont even notice bezels after minute or 2 in game.

 

toyota

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
12,957
1
0
They are not expensive. They might not be as cheap as the RV770 (forcing GT200 to drop), but they are in-line with previous generations and are cheaper than Nvidia counterparts today.
yes they are expensive. the 5850/5870 cards were released at a $50-$60 higher price point than the original price points that the 4850/4870 were released at then they quickly added another $50 to that. you end up with cards that are a whopping 100-110 bucks more than the price points the 4850/4870 were at for their release. thats a massive difference in price and if every generation did that we would be paying $2000 for consumer cards by now.

not to mention that the 4850/4870 had already dropped to about half of their original price points making the 5850/5870 even more inflated looking.

and before you say anything yes the gtx285 and gtx295 are way overpriced too. its clear that cut production on those cards so that might as well try and get the most they can for them I guess. right now is truly a horrible time to buy high end cards from a price/performance perspective.
 
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Rebel44

Senior member
Jun 19, 2006
742
1
76
yes they are expensive. the 5850/5870 cards were released at a $50-$60 higher price point than the original price points that the 4850/4870 were released at then they quickly added another $50 to that. you end up with cards that are a whopping 100-110 bucks more than the price points the 4850/4870 were at for their release. thats a massive difference in price and if every generation did that we would be paying $2000 for consumer cards by now.

not to mention that the 4850/4870 had already dropped to about half of their original price points making the 5850/5870 even more inflated looking.

and before you say anything yes the gtx285 and gtx295 are way overpriced too. its clear that cut production on those cards so that might as well try and get the most they can for them I guess. right now is truly a horrible time to buy high end cards from a price/performance perspective.
RV870 has bigger die (compared to RV770), production of 1 wafers 40nm cost more than was price of 55nm so it cost AMD more to make every RV870. AMD also have to pay for research and development + they would like to make some profit.

 

toyota

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
12,957
1
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RV870 has bigger die (compared to RV770), production of 1 wafers 40nm cost more than was price of 55nm so it cost AMD more to make every RV870. AMD also have to pay for research and development + they would like to make some profit
yeah I am not saying that they are more expensive for no reason but they are expensive nonetheless. ATIs prices will clearly benefit Nvidia though as they will not have to butcher their pricing as bad now that the ATI cards have only increased in price.
 

jiffylube1024

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
7,430
0
71
The problem I have is that the 5850/5870 is a waste of time for anyone. There's no DX11 games that are worth playing and the performance of these cards is wasted on no games. So even if you can afford $400 on the card it's still not worth it.

Um.. They 5850/5870 are still faster than the previous generation of cards, regardless of whether the game is DX10 or DX11.

I think you mean that the DX11 features are a waste of time for everyone, in which case you're still wrong because it takes almost no die size and it's not like they cut any major features to put DX11 in the cards.
 

PingviN

Golden Member
Nov 3, 2009
1,848
12
81
yes they are expensive. the 5850/5870 cards were released at a $50-$60 higher price point than the original price points that the 4850/4870 were released at then they quickly added another $50 to that. you end up with cards that are a whopping 100-110 bucks more than the price points the 4850/4870 were at for their release. thats a massive difference in price and if every generation did that we would be paying $2000 for consumer cards by now.
RV770 was cheap, but that doesn't make RV870 expensive. They are priced more in suit with earlier generations of GPUs, but still cheaper than G80, G90 and GT200 was when they were released.

RV770's low prices were a necessary evil for AMD to gain some of the market back from Nvidia, they were a bargain, but that doesn't mean you can compare all future generations with RV770.
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
12,968
221
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I'm going to agree with MJinZ, after Diablo 3 I think PC gaming is going to die off while developers just do PS3/Xbox 360 games.
I am not so sure PC gaming will die off. Certainly something needs to be done about the piracy though.
 

zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
36,041
469
126
58xx are currently above launch prices, regardless of what happened with production, that can only happen when there is no other option.

If nVidia had a faster card out for the same prices, AMD would either have to lower prices, or lose sales.

I haven't paid over $250 for a video card in a long time. My 8800GT and GTX260 were both $249. The 5850 should be at $250 and at that price I probably would have bought one already (that is what they launched at).

At $300, I'm waiting for nVidia... *shrug*
Those $250 cards you bought were obviously not bought close to launch at all and they weren't top of the line in their generation either. I can't remember a time when top of the line cards that killed it's competition released at such a low price. These types of cards used to launch at $500 or $600 all the time.
 

WhoBeDaPlaya

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2000
7,411
395
126
You're right however the problem is you forgot #1. No games. DX11 is wasted, the power is wasted.
I don't get this argument. The power might be waster for YOU, but there are some out there who actually want to use it. Hell, I'm in YOUR camp (staying put with my 4890 because I feel that it is more than sufficient for MY needs at 1080p) but can understand where other folks are coming from ;)
 

MrK6

Diamond Member
Aug 9, 2004
4,458
3
81
AMD's 5xxx series is simply amazing. They really outdid themselves providing solutions across all market segments that are competitive in every single performance metric - raw performance, power efficiency, features, price/performance, aesthetics (noise, etc.), you name it. Fermi so far has only been speculated in the highest echelon of the market. Right now AMD has zero competition in the $100< segments, and after Fermi this will change in that they will have competition only against the 5870 and possibly the 5970. At this point, I'm doubtful Fermi will do much to the market, if anything at all; it's almost to the point where it's inconsequential.
 

toyota

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
12,957
1
0
AMD's 5xxx series is simply amazing. They really outdid themselves providing solutions across all market segments that are competitive in every single performance metric - raw performance, power efficiency, features, price/performance, aesthetics (noise, etc.), you name it. Fermi so far has only been speculated in the highest echelon of the market. Right now AMD has zero competition in the $100< segments, and after Fermi this will change in that they will have competition only against the 5870 and possibly the 5970. At this point, I'm doubtful Fermi will do much to the market, if anything at all; it's almost to the point where it's inconsequential.
honestly I am not all that impressed with the 5000 series. its a joke that the 5870 cant even beat the 4870x2 in many cases. it matches it spec wise and even has higher clocks and no crossfire to deal with yet it is not better at all and costs more. the 5850 seems okay but there are a couple of times where it barely beats the gtx285(yes I know this card currently a rip off) which seems a little weak based on its specs too. it just doesnt offer the kick ass value that the 4850 had.

the 5770/5750 are higher priced than the 4870 4890 and are slower overall. the 5670 was a nice jump over the 4670 mainly because of memory bandwidth increase but it actually uses more power and costs too much for its performance. the 5570 is slower than the cheaper 4670 in some cases and there is no value in that card at all. the 5450 is a joke and offers nothing over the 4550 or really even the 4350 all while costing more. the 5970 is pretty impressive but its sad that it has to be out out of spec just to reach the 5870 clockspeeds. also at over 700 bucks its crazy priced.

really if all their products were a little cheaper then I would see more value over the previous 4000 series but at this point I dont. the 5000 series significantly(on high end) raised the overall price points instead of just raising the performance at those same price points. 4000 series had kick ass performance for the price across the board while the 5000 series actually has way lower overall performance for its asking prices.

and thats not even getting into the gray screen, hang ups, enlarged cursor or any other issues many users are experiencing on the 5000 series.
 
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scooterlibby

Senior member
Feb 28, 2009
752
0
0
RV770 was cheap, but that doesn't make RV870 expensive. They are priced more in suit with earlier generations of GPUs, but still cheaper than G80, G90 and GT200 was when they were released.

RV770's low prices were a necessary evil for AMD to gain some of the market back from Nvidia, they were a bargain, but that doesn't mean you can compare all future generations with RV770.
I think this is a fair point. But it is fair also say the R870 is expensive from a consumer standpoint because the 4xxx is still around at the moment. Unless someone is enamored with power efficiency, DX11, eyefinity, etc. (and sure there are people who do put a premium on that, but not all), why would they look at the faster 4850 compared to the slower and similarly priced 5670 and think that the 5 series is anything but expensive?

I am hoping Fermi will put a little bit of downward price pressure on the 5xxx series, but it does look doubtful we'll see a repeat of the Great Price War this go around.
 

dguy6789

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2002
8,558
3
76
honestly I am not all that impressed with the 5000 series. its a joke that the 5870 cant even beat the 4870x2 in many cases. it matches it spec wise and even has higher clocks and no crossfire to deal with yet it is not better at all and costs more. the 5850 seems okay but there are a couple of times where it barely beats the gtx285(yes I know this card currently a rip off) which seems a little weak based on its specs too. it just doesnt offer the kick ass value that the 4850 had.
The 4870x2 has a lot more memory bandwidth than the 5870. In situations where memory bandwidth is more important than GPU power, the 4870x2 will be quicker than the 5870. It's pretty simple.
 

MrK6

Diamond Member
Aug 9, 2004
4,458
3
81
honestly I am not all that impressed with the 5000 series. its a joke that the 5870 cant even beat the 4870x2 in many cases. it matches it spec wise and even has higher clocks and no crossfire to deal with yet it is not better at all and costs more. the 5850 seems okay but there are a couple of times where it barely beats the gtx285(yes I know this card currently a rip off) which seems a little weak based on its specs too. it just doesnt offer the kick ass value that the 4850 had.

the 5770/5750 are higher priced than the 4870 4890 and are slower overall. the 5670 was a nice jump over the 4670 mainly because of memory bandwidth increase but it actually uses more power and costs too much for its performance. the 5570 is slower than the cheaper 4670 in some cases and there is no value in that card at all. the 5450 is a joke and offers nothing over the 4550 or really even the 4350 all while costing more. the 5970 is pretty impressive but its sad that it has to be out out of spec just to reach the 5870 clockspeeds. also at over 700 bucks its crazy priced.

really if all their products were a little cheaper then I would see more value over the previous 4000 series but at this point I dont. the 4000 series had kick ass performance for the price while the 5000 series actually has lower overall performance for its asking prices.

and thats not even getting into the gray screen, hang ups, enlarged cursor or any other issues many users are experiencing on the 5000 series.
If you lack experience with the series and have only breezed through a couple of charts and reviews, I can understand this viewpoint. If you purchase a card from the series or get the time to sit down and tinker with one, I think it's true merits come to light.

First off, most reviews of the high-end (58xx) cards were done on launch, and the drivers have substantially improved since then. If I had to give a rough estimate, I'd say there's about 5% increased performance across the board with the 5870, with upwards of 20% in some games (Crysis, for example). There was a similar situation when I had my GTX295, where performance against the 4870X2 was lackluster at launch, however, there was a review done a few months after launch that I would always link to as it showed the performance improvements from the newer drivers.

At high resolutions (like the 2560x1600 I play at, so this is the point of view I'm coming from), the 5870 stomps all over my GTX295, no questions asked. Not just in raw FPS, but also in smoothness and quality of gameplay. Also, I can keep cranking IQ and the FPS really don't suffer much, which is not something I could do with my GTX295. At lower resolutions, some of the older hardware might keep up, but definitely not on my 30". In addition to this, the 5870 is faster while using ~60% of the power. It also overclocks much better than my GTX295 ever could, while remaining much quieter. It also has support for the latest features (DX11, Eyefinity), which is also nice.

However, I think the best buy in the 5xxx series is the 5850. In an enthusiast's hands, it can do 1GHz on the core for only $280. One has to go into the <$100 market to find a better price/performance ratio, and it even bests anything offered by the 4xxx series at it's release in June 2008. While performance-wise, the 57xx series is the same or a bit slower than their 48xx counterparts, they also only use 55-60% of the power and overclock much better. I'd rather have that versatility and make up the performance with a quick clock change. I haven't used and therefore won't comment on the lower 5xxx series, and I love my 4350, but newer parts will always carry a price premium compared to last generation, sometimes out of proportion to their added functionality.

As far as the few glitches I've seen with the 5xxx series, the large cursor problem is a thing of the past (which, if it's really that much of a problem, you need to go outside more). Now I've built four separate systems, including my own, based on 5xxx series GPUs and have yet to see a grey screen crash that wasn't brought on by my own doing (usually an overclocking attempt). Have these problems actually been reported mostly by AIBs to AMD (due to increasing numbers of RMAs) or is it only showing up on enthusiast boards? Call me a cynic, but many times these issues develop from people not doing their homework and overclocking improperly. If you can't be bothered to do something thoroughly correct, don't bother.

In either case, my point is that NVIDIA is entering quite late into one hell of a competition. They need to have a stellar part just to stay competitive, nevermind progress.
 

toyota

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
12,957
1
0
to me value is having a card increase it performance and features while staying at about the same price point. sort of how the 9600gt nearly doubled the performance of the 8600gt while actually being cheaper than the original 8600gt msrp at its respective launch. AMD raised those points high enough on the 5000 series that performance per dollar is now pretty low compared to the previous gen of cards. if that happened evey time we had a new gen of cards we would be paying well over 2000 bucks for even single gpu cards by now.
 
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dguy6789

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2002
8,558
3
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The 5870 has always been cheaper than the 4870x2 and the GTX 295. The 5970 is massively faster than either of them so the price is justified.
 

toyota

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
12,957
1
0
The 5870 has always been cheaper than the 4870x2 and the GTX 295. The 5970 is massively faster than either of them so the price is justified.
no it hasnt. the 4870x2 was at $350 around the time the 5870 came out and that card is 400 bucks. and again you and many other are missing the point which is that new gen of cards are supposed to be much faster than previous at the same price points.
 

dguy6789

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2002
8,558
3
76
no it hasnt. the 4870x2 was at $350 around the time the 5870 came out and that card is 400 bucks. and again you and many other are missing the point which is that new gen of cards are supposed to be much faster than previous at the same price points.
The 4870x2 was never $150+ cheaper than the GTX 295 that I can recall.

You're missing a point as well. Much faster at the same price point is only one side of the coin that a next gen product can be expected to bring. Just as fast for much less money is the other that you are forgetting, and this is what the 5000 series brought. The 5870 was always on par with the GTX 295 but MUCH cheaper. 5850 was always faster than the GTX 285 and much cheaper. The 5970 is more expensive than the GTX295, but it's way, way faster, definitely worth the price premium.
 

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