When you sell and trade something that is basically on paper... it is easy to defraud

[rudder]

Cap and Trade for instance. Nothing that exists other than on paper is being sold and traded. The criminal organizations around the world apparently have figured this out and milked the European carbon trading system for $7.4 Billion... I see a bright future for Nigerians..

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/12/14/fraud-europes-cap-trade-red-flag-critics-say/

The article points to the activity as a red flag to the U.S..... and they are not kidding.

 

[Craig234]

No, I'm not going to fiox news. But I do have real concerns about cap and trade from some initial info and at some point am intersted to look into it further.

I'm pretty suspicious of the risks of it being gamed, however well intentioned. Sometimes, the best aqpproach is just to deal with the issue directly, not create aq vulnerable policy.

 

[rudder]

No, I'm not going to fiox news.

Well here you go

http://www.europol.europa.eu/index.asp?page=news&news=pr091209.htm

 

[Craig234]

Thanks. And thanks for the informative thread.

 

[StageLeft]

Our economy has too much of this speculative scammy crap already.

 

[palehorse]

Crap and Charade? imagine that...

 

[novasatori]

You say defraud, I say arbitrage!

:sneaky:

 

[cubby1223]

No, I'm not going to fiox news.

Denying the other perspective isn't good to civil discussion, you know...

But then again, that's the "progressive" way is it not? We all know you support Chavez shutting down the last media outlet down there who is not head-over-heads in support of him...

 

[sandorski]

Well, you just undermined everything beyond Cash Transactions. Sure, Fraud can and will occur under C&T, but name one thing that doesn't have Fraud occur.

C&T is as close to a Market Solution as you can get.

 

[Craig234]

Denying the other perspective isn't good to civil discussion, you know...

But then again, that's the "progressive" way is it not? We all know you support Chavez shutting down the last media outlet down there who is not head-over-heads in support of him...

Denying lies and liars is a good idea. I'm all for 'the other side' that's honest getting heard.

Speaking of lies, you lied about my position. I'm *for* free speech in Venezuela.

I'm sympathetic to his shutting down a tv station *whose owners participated in an illegal coup to violently overthrow democracy*, which isn't quite what you said.

*Honest* opposition, ok. There's a gray area - when the money is hugely concentrated and owns all but one public station and puts out propaganda, that's not a good market.

And in our own country, five huge media companies owning nearly all media and putting out self-serving information isn't a good market, either.

I'm for breaking up the media conglomorates for more free speech - not for 'liberal only media and shut down the right media' idiocy you spew.

 

[Greenman]

I thought fraud was the entire point of cap and trade? It's an industry that produces no product and performs no service. If you really look at it, it's a shell game, the hidden part is co2, the players shuffle the shells around to hide the gas. There are two things that are certain in C&T, a few people will get very rich, and a whole bunch of people will pay out a great deal of money for nothing.

 

[werepossum]

I thought fraud was the entire point of cap and trade? It's an industry that produces no product and performs no service. If you really look at it, it's a shell game, the hidden part is co2, the players shuffle the shells around to hide the gas. There are two things that are certain in C&T, a few people will get very rich, and a whole bunch of people will pay out a great deal of money for nothing.

So true, but you left out government's ability to reward and punish using CO2 credits. It gets boring always using regulatory agencies and tax code.

 

[Ausm]

I thought you were referring to exotic derivatives on Wall Street.

 

[her209]

I thought you were referring to exotic derivatives on Wall Street.

And naked short selling.

 

[spittledip]

This has been going on years before cap and trade.

 

[Dari]

Wait until Wall Street gets in on this, anything illegal now will be legalized.

 

[brandonbull]

Wait until Wall Street gets in on this, anything illegal now will be legalized.

I'm sure they are working on trading "green house gas" futures as we speak. Yet another legalized scam that they will be allowed to do.