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When would you buy an electric car?

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Originally posted by: lxskllr
Originally posted by: boomerang

When I was a working man, I regularly moved around tooling that weighed as much as 140,000 lbs. Moving something weighing 1000 lbs is nothing. It truly is. It's all what you're used to. I can understand an individual who works in an office environment thinking it's waaay out there but it isn't by any means.

You do it from the bottom of the car. You provide a means to index the battery to the vehicle which can also double as a means to index the tooling for changing the battery. The mechanism comes up from the bottom, indexes itself on the battery and unclamps it from the car. That battery is transported out of the way to a charging rack and the replacement battery moves into position. It is lifted into place, indexed and clamped. During the process, the bar code on the battery is read as well as the VIN of the vehicle for tracking purposes. A database is maintained to track the status of the battery.

Really, it's not a big deal at all.

It's a pretty big deal when you have 15 people waiting in line to get batteries. It would be a 10 minute operation, minimum, plus you need storage for old and new batteries.

if southwest can manage to turn around an airliner in 15 minutes, i'm sure we can figure out how to swap a 1000lb battery in less than 5.

depending on the model you use, storage won't be a problem. i would imagine a central charging warehouse where the batteries charge - meaning you would have regular truck routes from all the satellite swap stations to pick up the used batteries and drop off fresh ones every hour - or whatever is necessary to keep the inventory sufficiently low at the swap station.
 
At 100 miles it would handle at least 95% of my driving days. another 2~3% would allow for a plugin. that leaves 2% and we have two cars. I'd be all over a plugin car that would do 100 miles.
 
Originally posted by: Cattlegod

if southwest can manage to turn around an airliner in 15 minutes, i'm sure we can figure out how to swap a 1000lb battery in less than 5.

depending on the model you use, storage won't be a problem. i would imagine a central charging warehouse where the batteries charge - meaning you would have regular truck routes from all the satellite swap stations to pick up the used batteries and drop off fresh ones every hour - or whatever is necessary to keep the inventory sufficiently low at the swap station.

The difference is southwest has a whole crew of people.

The solution to electric cars is not battery swaps, too many safety issues. Things like fuel cells and better batteries that give longer range are the answer.


Do you really want the guy working for minimum wage to work with things like this:
http://video.google.com/videop...9636960714830130&hl=en
 
Originally posted by: Cattlegod


if southwest can manage to turn around an airliner in 15 minutes, i'm sure we can figure out how to swap a 1000lb battery in less than 5.

depending on the model you use, storage won't be a problem. i would imagine a central charging warehouse where the batteries charge - meaning you would have regular truck routes from all the satellite swap stations to pick up the used batteries and drop off fresh ones every hour - or whatever is necessary to keep the inventory sufficiently low at the swap station.

How many underskilled workers will be manning these battery stations? How do they keep out of each other's way? Many of the gas stations around me just don't have the room, even if the scheme were workable.
 
Originally posted by: Modelworks
Originally posted by: boomerang
Originally posted by: Modelworks
You guys talking about battery swaps at the station do realize they are not like changing a car battery now ? These things weigh 1000lbs + and take a forklift to move, they often take up several square feet. You are not just going to swap them out and be on your way.
When I was a working man, I regularly moved around tooling that weighed as much as 140,000 lbs. Moving something weighing 1000 lbs is nothing. It truly is. It's all what you're used to. I can understand an individual who works in an office environment thinking it's waaay out there but it isn't by any means.

You do it from the bottom of the car. You provide a means to index the battery to the vehicle which can also double as a means to index the tooling for changing the battery. The mechanism comes up from the bottom, indexes itself on the battery and unclamps it from the car. That battery is transported out of the way to a charging rack and the replacement battery moves into position. It is lifted into place, indexed and clamped. During the process, the bar code on the battery is read as well as the VIN of the vehicle for tracking purposes. A database is maintained to track the status of the battery.

Really, it's not a big deal at all.


You are dreaming if you think people will go for that.
There is no way that a change like that can be done quickly. There are too many safety concerns. You would have to put the vehicle on a lift, take out the old battery pack, place it somewhere so it can be recharged, then get a new one and place it in the vehicle, take the vehicle off the lift and do the paperwork, get paid.

That is at least 20 minutes or more to accomplish and that is if the person doing the work really rushes. People are not going to do that when they can fill up and go in a minute or two.
Look, I'm not going to argue this point. But I'm going to take the risk of pissing you off (which I really don't want to do) and tell you that if you have no experience in a manufacturing environment, you have no idea how fast things can be done.

My example used a quick oil change model. The car is driven over an opening in the floor and the whole process is completed from below. Totally automated. It would take 3 minutes tops. With multiple bays, there would be no more wait than a wait at a typical gas station.

Battery storage and charging is all done in the basement of the facility. Just as the quick oil change stores their waste oil tanks, etc., there will be plenty of room for battery storage and the equipment to change and charge them.

Have you not seem automated equipment run in a manufacturing environment? On TV even? Things happen very quickly. This is as doable as it gets. Watch How It's Made sometime.


 
Originally posted by: Modelworks
Originally posted by: Cattlegod

if southwest can manage to turn around an airliner in 15 minutes, i'm sure we can figure out how to swap a 1000lb battery in less than 5.

depending on the model you use, storage won't be a problem. i would imagine a central charging warehouse where the batteries charge - meaning you would have regular truck routes from all the satellite swap stations to pick up the used batteries and drop off fresh ones every hour - or whatever is necessary to keep the inventory sufficiently low at the swap station.

The difference is southwest has a whole crew of people.

The solution to electric cars is not battery swaps, too many safety issues. Things like fuel cells and better batteries that give longer range are the answer.

people said putting 30 gallons of explosive gasoline into a pressurized thin metal container underneath a car made the same arguments back in the day 🙂
 
Yeah, the indexing and standardized battery units, the automated connections it would happen very fast. The infrastructure would cost like a bastige to get started, but it would work.
 
Originally posted by: Modelworks
Originally posted by: Cattlegod

if southwest can manage to turn around an airliner in 15 minutes, i'm sure we can figure out how to swap a 1000lb battery in less than 5.

depending on the model you use, storage won't be a problem. i would imagine a central charging warehouse where the batteries charge - meaning you would have regular truck routes from all the satellite swap stations to pick up the used batteries and drop off fresh ones every hour - or whatever is necessary to keep the inventory sufficiently low at the swap station.

The difference is southwest has a whole crew of people.

The solution to electric cars is not battery swaps, too many safety issues. Things like fuel cells and better batteries that give longer range are the answer.


Do you really want the guy working for minimum wage to work with things like this:
http://video.google.com/videop...9636960714830130&hl=en

I'd rather take that then this. Engineers are very skilled, we can design protective casing around the batteries, and design the swap process so they don't get crushed.

 
Originally posted by: boomerang

My example used a quick oil change model. The car is driven over an opening in the floor and the whole process is completed from below. Totally automated. It would take 3 minutes tops. With multiple bays, there would be no more wait than a wait at a typical gas station.

And who is going to pay for these battery swapping mega stations ? They would only be in high population areas because the cost would prohibit them otherwise. Car developers would have to agree on standards and incorporate that into their designs. Research money that could be spent improving the tech so that swapping was not necessary.

Battery storage and charging is all done in the basement of the facility. Just as the quick oil change stores their waste oil tanks, etc., there will be plenty of room for battery storage and the equipment to change and charge them.

Except these are not barrels of oil. They are lithium batteries where just one person mishandling them can turn an entire block of real estate into an inferno much quicker than anyone who smokes around a gas pump. It is a much more dangerous material than gasoline.

Have you not seem automated equipment run in a manufacturing environment? On TV even? Things happen very quickly. This is as doable as it gets. Watch How It's Made sometime.

Sure it is doable, but how much will it all cost ? That cost will be passed on to the consumer. Electric cars are already too expensive for most. This will not help things.

The best solution remains to extend range by research and improvements on fuel cells.
 
Originally posted by: Cattlegod
Engineers are very skilled, we can design protective casing around the batteries, and design the swap process so they don't get crushed.


Why not use those same engineers and the money it cost to design batteries that do not need to be swapped ?
 
Originally posted by: Modelworks
Originally posted by: Cattlegod
Engineers are very skilled, we can design protective casing around the batteries, and design the swap process so they don't get crushed.


Why not use those same engineers and the money it cost to design batteries that do not need to be swapped ?

it is the difference between technology existing and technology not existing. engineers take existing technology and apply it. what you need are phds that research and develop new technology. right now the technology you are asking for doesn't exist for consumer level application.
 
Originally posted by: Modelworks
Originally posted by: boomerang

My example used a quick oil change model. The car is driven over an opening in the floor and the whole process is completed from below. Totally automated. It would take 3 minutes tops. With multiple bays, there would be no more wait than a wait at a typical gas station.

And who is going to pay for these battery swapping mega stations ? They would only be in high population areas because the cost would prohibit them otherwise. Car developers would have to agree on standards and incorporate that into their designs. Research money that could be spent improving the tech so that swapping was not necessary.

Battery storage and charging is all done in the basement of the facility. Just as the quick oil change stores their waste oil tanks, etc., there will be plenty of room for battery storage and the equipment to change and charge them.

Except these are not barrels of oil. They are lithium batteries where just one person mishandling them can turn an entire block of real estate into an inferno much quicker than anyone who smokes around a gas pump. It is a much more dangerous material than gasoline.

Have you not seem automated equipment run in a manufacturing environment? On TV even? Things happen very quickly. This is as doable as it gets. Watch How It's Made sometime.

Sure it is doable, but how much will it all cost ? That cost will be passed on to the consumer. Electric cars are already too expensive for most. This will not help things.

The best solution remains to extend range by research and improvements on fuel cells.
Personally, I don't think electric cars are a viable means of transportation for the majority of drivers using the technology we have today.

My posts are talking about how battery swaps can be done. All of your concerns have either been addressed already or are easily addressed, but it's best at this point for me to let this go. You've got a bias against electric which is fine and one I don't really disagree with, but it's coloring your views on how battery swaps can be accomplished.
 
Originally posted by: boomerang

My posts are talking about how battery swaps can be done. All of your concerns have either been addressed already or are easily addressed, but it's best at this point for me to let this go. You've got a bias against electric which is fine and one I don't really disagree with, but it's coloring your views on how battery swaps can be accomplished.

Yes they could be done, but I just can't see it being done cost effectively and safely with the current level of tech. I am not biased against electric at all. I do want it to be done in a manner that actually works long term. There is no crisis right now to have electric cars so we have time to develop better models.

 
With a 200-300 mile range, I'd consider an electric car for around-town use...IF I had solar panels to provide the electricity to charge the batteries...with the relatively high cost of electricity here, an electric car could end up being an expensive alternative.

I don't think I'd want to take one on a road trip. I'm a big guy with lots of busted up parts...I need a comfortable ride, not a crackerbox.
(my 2003 Jetta is barely tolerable for anything more than about 50 miles)
 
Originally posted by: Cattlegod
people said putting 30 gallons of explosive gasoline into a pressurized thin metal container underneath a car made the same arguments back in the day 🙂

Fuel tanks aren't pressurized. In fact, prior to the 1970s they were vented straight to atmosphere. Even today with evaporative controls they aren't supposed to pressurize to any significant degree but rather to purge through the charcoal canister.

ZV
 
Originally posted by: Modelworks
Originally posted by: boomerang

My example used a quick oil change model. The car is driven over an opening in the floor and the whole process is completed from below. Totally automated. It would take 3 minutes tops. With multiple bays, there would be no more wait than a wait at a typical gas station.

And who is going to pay for these battery swapping mega stations ? They would only be in high population areas because the cost would prohibit them otherwise. Car developers would have to agree on standards and incorporate that into their designs. Research money that could be spent improving the tech so that swapping was not necessary.

Battery storage and charging is all done in the basement of the facility. Just as the quick oil change stores their waste oil tanks, etc., there will be plenty of room for battery storage and the equipment to change and charge them.

Except these are not barrels of oil. They are lithium batteries where just one person mishandling them can turn an entire block of real estate into an inferno much quicker than anyone who smokes around a gas pump. It is a much more dangerous material than gasoline.

Have you not seem automated equipment run in a manufacturing environment? On TV even? Things happen very quickly. This is as doable as it gets. Watch How It's Made sometime.

Sure it is doable, but how much will it all cost ? That cost will be passed on to the consumer. Electric cars are already too expensive for most. This will not help things.

The best solution remains to extend range by research and improvements on fuel cells.

I know lithium can be dangerous, but don't you think the bolded part is a bit of an exaggeration? To get them to explode would require a pretty thick piece of metal. And even when one battery explodes, it wouldn't result in a catastrophic explosion for the rest of the batteries.

I just don't see the potential for "Blowing up the entire block" with lithium batteries.

(I do agree with your sentiment though. Replacing batteries is infeasibility. Batteries wear down, so there would be no guarantee that you are getting a big charge with your battery. Couple that with the pain of having to have standardized batteries. The possibility of needing a battery distribution network (Some cars might need 3 batteries while others need 2). And you have a big mess on your hands.)
 
Originally posted by: Cogman
[
I know lithium can be dangerous, but don't you think the bolded part is a bit of an exaggeration? To get them to explode would require a pretty thick piece of metal. And even when one battery explodes, it wouldn't result in a catastrophic explosion for the rest of the batteries.

I just don't see the potential for "Blowing up the entire block" with lithium batteries.


I didn't say blowing up , I said set it on fire.

Lithium batteries are dangerous in the presence of heat. If you damage one cell in a close network of cells, like a battery pack , cause it to catch fire, the heat from that cell can cause other cells to ignite. You get a chain of cells catching fire ,lithium burns hot and cannot be extinguished with simple water sprinklers or fire hoses. If such a fire were to start in a room where a bunch of lithium battery packs were stored you could easily get a fire that could burn down a block. Most fire departments are not equipped for such fires making it even worse.

Gasoline on the other hand can be extinguished easily and if a pump goes at a station there is a cutoff. Other than maybe using special chemicals to put out a lithium based fire I can't think of anything that can be done except run.


This is the same thing that happened with laptops. One cell in the pack failed igniting other cells. I think it is a good technology if it is handled properly. I wouldn't want people moving around large amounts of these cells like they were changing out a conventional battery. If a pack the size that is in laptops can set a room on fire, what will a pack 50 times that size do ?

Testing results from lithium fires
Batteries were tested singly, and in groups of 32, 64 and 128. Tests also involved groups of batteries packed in rows inside cardboard boxes.

For test purposes, the battery fires were started by igniting a "fire pan" filled with alcohol. The findings were fearful. To summarize:

* A relatively small fire source was sufficient to start a lithium battery fire.

* The heat from a single battery afire was sufficient to ignite adjacent batteries.

* The outer plastic coating on the batteries easily melted, fusing the batteries together, adding to the intensity of the fire.

* The chain reaction ignition continued until all batteries were consumed.

* The molten lithium burned explosively, spraying white-hot lithium to a radius of several feet as the batteries bounced around.

* The duration of the peak temperature increased with the number of batteries, reaching as high as 1,400[degrees] F (as a matter of interest, the melting temperature of aluminum is around 1,200[degrees] F).

* The cardboard packing proved highly flammable. The packing delayed battery ignition by about 30-60 seconds, but once ignited, the fire among the close-packed batteries was worse.

* While thick-wall cargo liners were able to contain the fire (barely), thin-walled fire liners proved ineffective. The battery fire ignited the resin in the liner, and the liner was completely penetrated by molten lithium.

* Halon fire-suppressing agent, injected in sufficient concentration to "knock down" a fire, proved totally ineffective, even when injected after just the first battery had caught fire. Nor did it have any effect on the peak temperature. The fire continued as if Halon were not present.

* Lithium batteries catch fire with explosive force. When they burst, they create a pressure pulse. The eight-battery test produced a pressure pulse of 1.8 psi, and the 16-battery test generated a 2.6 psi pulse.
 
100 miles is just not enough range. And I presume that's 100 miles on fresh new batteries?

Needs to be at least 300 before I'll look at it. Either that or some tech that allows you to fast charge within 5 minutes at a gas station.

I fully support the research into electric cars though.
 
Originally posted by: Fritzo


I think they're targeting this car to city folk 🙂

I think city folk would be more likely to get a gas car since they won't have the driveway space for 2 or more cars. At least someone with driveway space can get this as their "around town" car while they have another for longer trips. City folk will need a single car that does everything. Plus, city folk usually don't drive very far to work so the price of gas won't affect them as much. In addition, where would they charge it? It's not like they have a driveway where they can pull it up to their house, they most likely park on the street.

They just need a practical car, and this isn't it.
 
Originally posted by: Eli
Wow, lots of FUD in this thread.

1) Electric motors are superior to internal combustion engines in nearly every way imaginable. They can produce nearly full torque at 0RPM. Imagine a car with 1,000ftlbs of torque at 500RPM. It would dust your Impala SS without even blinking. Of course, you would probably only have a 25 mile range with current battery technology.. lol.

It all depends on how much horsepower it makes. Torque alone isn't going to get you anywhere. If it has 1000 ft lbs of torque but only 150 hp, it will smoke its tires at the line and then start bogging down as the speed progresses.
 
100mi is fine for the daily commute which can't possibly be more than 100miles. then just charge over night. it's a good deal, i'd buy it. not practical for travel though. but there's always trains/plains/rental cars for that.
 
Originally posted by: theman
100mi is fine for the daily commute which can't possibly be more than 100miles. then just charge over night. it's a good deal, i'd buy it. not practical for travel though. but there's always trains/plains/rental cars for that.

100 miles barely gets me to work and back. If I have to run errands, or head back out after work I'd be hosed. A 200 mile range would cover me.
 
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