When U.S. companies dodge taxes, is it unpatriotic?

Oldgamer

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,280
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"You want to operate here? You want access to this market? You want access to the work force ... the economy? Understand this: To continue to have that access, you're going to have to pay your fair share of U.S. taxes."

Link to article

They do it by merging with foreign companies in countries with lower rates and officially moving their home base.

The strategy is called "inversion," and it's legal. But is it un-patriotic?
In the past decade, at least 47 U.S. companies have made the move. Several inversions have been proposed this year and more are in the works.

"We should prevent companies from effectively renouncing their citizenship to get out of paying taxes. What we need is a new sense of economic patriotism, where we all rise and fall together," said U.S. Treasury Secretary Jack Lew In a letter to lawmakers last week.

Allan Sloan, senior editor-at-large at Fortune Magazine, has called inversions flat-out un-American. "Undermining the finances of the U.S. government by inverting helps undermine our economy," Sloan wrote in a recent cover story.
Democratic Senator Charles Schumer, says U.S. companies benefit from doing business in the United States and should pay for the privilege.

"You want to operate here? You want access to this market? You want access to the work force ... the economy? Understand this: To continue to have that access, you're going to have to pay your fair share of U.S. taxes."
Most tax experts and politicians from both parties say the real culprit is the overly complex and outdated tax code.

Democrat Ron Wyden, chair of the Senate Finance Committee, called the code an "an anti-competitive mess" in a hearing Tuesday.

Since tax reform is on the slow train and inversions appear to be accelerating, Wyden and others want a short-term fix to stem the tide until the code is properly reformed. But that's unlikely to happen this year.

The trend of U.S. companies moving abroad is more a testament to, among other things, "the importance of non-U.S. markets for U.S. firms," said Mihir Desai, a Harvard professor of finance and law. "Rather than questioning the loyalties of executives it is critical to understand these underlying ... forces."
More than patriotism, everyone's concern is that the corporate moves will reduce U.S. jobs. Witnesses at the Senate hearing Tuesday couldn't point to hard evidence to either support or contradict that fear.

"It could go either way. If the foreign company is a better managed company, they bring in new technology, it could increase jobs," said Peter Merrill, the director of PricewaterhouseCoopers national economics and statistics group.

But based on anecdotal evidence, "high-value headquarter jobs ... may well get relocated when [a U.S. company ] becomes foreign-owned," Desai said.

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Close the tax loopholes, campaign financing laws that get them there.

..and or make the company publicly declare a "home country" before they can operate in your country. They are then allowed to operate within the tax structure of that country AND receive government assistance/tax credits for that country. So if companies all declare their home country as the Caymans (where they're storing money to avoid paying taxes) they become ineligible for any form of US Govt subsidy because the US is not their declared "home".
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
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Patriotism is dead, wall street and greed killed it.

There are no morals or values in business, all there is only money.

If the government put the hole in the tax code, there is nothing wrong with using it.
 
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theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
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Yes, it's unpatriotic. Like SCOTUS tells us, corporations are people with morals and religions, so they should be held to the same standards.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
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If Jack Lew is unhappy with the system as it exists he needs to work to get the laws in force changed. Plain and simple. He himself says they're not breaking the law. Change it or quit whining like a schoolgirl.

The cost of purposefully importing the illegals streaming over our border right now, right now mind you, is $3.7 Billion. I think that Mr. Lew would like to invite a shit-ton more and he needs the money to make that happen. That along with all the other idiotic spending this regime is doing.

Fuck Jack Lew and the government he works for. I would tell him to quit whining, roll up your sleeves and attempt to get done what you want to get done through the methods available in our Constitution. Everything he needs is right there.

These guys sure know how to get the base all ginned up. It's working right here, that's for certain.
 
Feb 4, 2009
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Unpatriotic no, should the tax code be modified yes. The current laws were written in a different time to serve different needs. Currently no politician has the balls to do anything about it.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
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Yes, it's unpatriotic. Like SCOTUS tells us, corporations are people with morals and religions, so they should be held to the same standards.

Nope.

That applies to closely held corporations. I.e., few shareholders.

Inversions are done by large multinationals, these are not closely held corporations.

Such large corporations have no patriotism, and why should they? I bet for many a great deal of their stock is held by foreigners. why would foreigners be patriotic to the USA?

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OP loves this topic. I've lost count of how many threads on this he's started.

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BTW: Corporations that go through an inversion WILL pay their fair share of US taxes. That is, they will pay US taxes on the profit they earn in the US. Just like all other non-US corporations.

Fern
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
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BTW: Corporations that go through an inversion WILL pay their fair share of US taxes. That is, they will pay US taxes on the profit they earn in the US. Just like all other non-US corporations.

Fern

Screw them, we're Americans! We don't want taxes on US income, we want taxes on EVERYBODY'S income dammit!

'Murica!
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
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When you go around saying things like "if you don't like the tax system in the U.S. you're free to leave," you shouldn't be surprised when someone takes you up on it. And dmcowen tells us the country is better off if the rich do leave, so you should be happy about this.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,198
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Nope.

That applies to closely held corporations. I.e., few shareholders.

Inversions are done by large multinationals, these are not closely held corporations.

Such large corporations have no patriotism, and why should they? I bet for many a great deal of their stock is held by foreigners. why would foreigners be patriotic to the USA?

-----------------

OP loves this topic. I've lost count of how many threads on this he's started.

------------------

BTW: Corporations that go through an inversion WILL pay their fair share of US taxes. That is, they will pay US taxes on the profit they earn in the US. Just like all other non-US corporations.

Fern

That's a distinction that only makes sense in SCOTUS' mind and maybe the IRS'.
 

Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
4,282
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It's business as usual. That's why we have some of the highest corporate taxes in the world, so that the scheme can continue and companies can pay up to lobby for privelage from the US government.

It's effectively extortion from the US government, not companies being unpatriotic. You don't stay in business very long if you are paying the full effect of US corporate tax. Ask GE and others how they manage to pay effective 0%. That's the advantage GE gets for buying into the extortion scheme, without it they are out of business, and so is their competition that can't pay bribes to lower effective tax rates.


Charles Hugh Smith as always on point and direct in revealing the truth about the system.

The Rot Within, Part III: Our Political Order Is Defined by Favoritism and Extortion
What's the difference between the U.S. Congress and corrupt petty officials taking bribes at a Third-World border crossing? Only one of scale.

Corruption ceases to be corruption when it becomes the Status Quo; what was once recognized as corruption is seen as just another cost of doing business. Our political order is structurally corrupt: the key dynamic in every level of governance is favoritism and extortion.

Favors must be bought: those foolish enough not to spend freely on lobbyists and campaign contributions find their competitors have gained the upper hand by buying favors such as tax breaks, federal subsidies, no-bid contracts, cost-plus contracts, backroom deals, regulations that exclude competition and so on.

Politicos must extort campaign contributions from the maximum number of supplicants seeking favors to maintain their perquisites and power.

Here's how the system works.

...

Full Article



If you want to remove the systematic corruption you have to stop allowing the government so much influence and control. They use influence and control to corrupt while saying they need more of it to better the average mans lot in life. Politicians employ this simple sleight of hand because it works on an ignorant and weak mass of people. Government and politicians are not altruistic, they are self serving and they manage their selfish whims through deception. This dynamic is why government treats truth as treason, truth is cryptonite to a corrupt and entrenched system of control. Ask Edward Snowden.

Same as always, but the issue is corruption of men in government who rig the system through favors and extortion. Business just play along because they have to and it is more lucrative to pay extortion fees than play by a set of rules that selectively weed out anyone not paying to play.
 
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PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
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So if someone uses the interest deduction when filing their taxes, are they "dodging" their taxes? Is that unpatriotic? How about those evil Clintons dodging their taxes and being all unpatrioticky, clearly hillary is not fit to run the country right?

Companies do what makes the most sense to their shareholders. If the taxes in one country are such that it is much more advantageous to do an inversion, than that's what they do. Stop whining about completely logical and predictable outcomes, stop whining about "patriotism" of companies (there's no such thing), and tackle the issue by fixing the tax code to make it less complex and archaic.
 

KB

Diamond Member
Nov 8, 1999
5,406
389
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I wouldn't say its unpatriotic, but I agree with closing tax loopholes.


"America’s corporate tax has two horrible flaws. The first is the tax rate, which at 35% is the highest among the 34 mostly rich-country members of the OECD. Yet it raises less revenue than the OECD average thanks to myriad loopholes and tax breaks aimed at everything from machinery investment to NASCAR race tracks. Last year these breaks cost $150 billion in forgone revenue, more than half of what America collected in total corporate taxes.

The second flaw is that America levies tax on a company’s income no matter where in the world it is earned. In contrast, every other large rich country taxes only income earned within its borders. Here, too, America’s system is absurdly ineffective at collecting money. Firms do not have to pay tax on foreign profits until they bring them back home. Not surprisingly, many do not: American multinationals have some $2 trillion sitting on their foreign units’ balance-sheets, and growing."


http://www.economist.com/news/leade...d-no-substitute-corporate-tax-reform-how-stop

The US computes taxes differently than any other country in the world. We should be more in line with the others and only tax profits from the US, not profits made overseas since these are already taxed by the country in which they are made. I think we would find it really backward if China wanted to tax GE for all the profit it made selling wind-turbines in Texas, just because GE does business in China.

Since our lawmakers are incompetent and only interested in adding more tax loopholes to get more campaign donations, it makes sense to move to a more business friendly environment were lawmakers might actually help your business, rather than strangle it.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
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Since our lawmakers are incompetent and only interested in adding more tax loopholes to get more campaign donations, it makes sense to move to a more business friendly environment were lawmakers might actually help your business, rather than strangle it.

So, the net is that we need to blame the politicians (as is usually the case), not whine and complain about the corporations doing exactly what they should logically do based on the framework and parameters created by the laws and regulations.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
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The distinction between closely-held corporations and public corporations?

Fern

Yep. Just the number of shareholders. Same "morals."
But I'll play along. Do you think it's unpatriotic for corporations "closely-held" by US owners to dodge US taxes? I mean they are "people." :biggrin:
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Yep. Just the number of shareholders. Same "morals."
But I'll play along. Do you think it's unpatriotic for corporations "closely-held" by US owners to dodge US taxes? I mean they are "people." :biggrin:

I'm not sure what your definition of "dodging" is.

If it's tax evasion, yes I would have to say it may qualify as unpatriotic (and possibly a felony too). OTOH, refusing to pay taxes as a form of civil disobedience may not be unpatriotic. I suppose that depends upon one's view of the circumstances and cause for the civil disobedience.

If you're following all the laws to lawfully reduce your taxes, no.

Fern
 

Babbles

Diamond Member
Jan 4, 2001
8,253
14
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I think it is unpatriotic.

If we want to make some sort of historical comparison, when whiskey distillers didn't want to pay taxes George Washington led an army against them. Therefore, a significant founding father thought skimping out on your taxes was unpatriotic.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
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I think it is unpatriotic.

If we want to make some sort of historical comparison, when whiskey distillers didn't want to pay taxes George Washington led an army against them. Therefore, a significant founding father thought skimping out on your taxes was unpatriotic.

No, that's an incorrect analogy. There is a difference between evading or not paying taxes that you are obligated to pay based on the law, or using the laws and tax code to your advantage and minimizing your obligations. One is illegal, the other is not. Is using the interest deduction "dodging" taxes? Of course not, it's following the tax code and minimizing your liability under the code. That's what the companies are doing. The problem isn't the companies, it's the tax code.