When U.S. companies dodge taxes, is it unpatriotic?

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Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
424
126
You can do whatever you want if you are [a D].
FTFY.

Anyway, no. Not giving more money to a government as corrupt, inefficient, wasteful and out of control as ours isn't "unpatriotic". (as if govt asslickers gave a shit about patriotism anyway.) The government isn't short of money; too much of the populace is short on common sense.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,198
126
I'm not sure what your definition of "dodging" is.

If it's tax evasion, yes I would have to say it may qualify as unpatriotic (and possibly a felony too). OTOH, refusing to pay taxes as a form of civil disobedience may not be unpatriotic. I suppose that depends upon one's view of the circumstances and cause for the civil disobedience.

If you're following all the laws to lawfully reduce your taxes, no.

Fern

LOL, yeah, Walgreens is engaging in civil disobedience by relocating to Ireland. :rolleyes:
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
When you go around saying things like "if you don't like the tax system in the U.S. you're free to leave," you shouldn't be surprised when someone takes you up on it.

And dmcowen tells us the country is better off if the rich do leave, so you should be happy about this.

Absolutely

Once they are all gone the true Patriots of this Country will prevail.
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
"You want to operate here? You want access to this market? You want access to the work force ... the economy? Understand this: To continue to have that access, you're going to have to pay your fair share of U.S. taxes."

Why is it when we talk about the rich or corporations it's always about your fair share? What is a fair share for those at the bottom that don't really even pay an income tax or get more back than they pay in?
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,198
126
Anyways, if these companies want to move, fine. But since a lot of them are pharmaceutical companies getting a lot of money from Medicare, it's time we stop sending our money overseas and allow Medicare to negotiate a better deal, instead of letting these foreigners charge US taxpayer an arm and a leg.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Anyways, if these companies want to move, fine. But since a lot of them are pharmaceutical companies getting a lot of money from Medicare, it's time we stop sending our money overseas and allow Medicare to negotiate a better deal, instead of letting these foreigners charge US taxpayer an arm and a leg.

And Durban has the balls to call out Walgreens when he and others are squeezing them with reimbursements lower than it costs to do business, sometimes lower than actual acquisition, causes huge increases in costs of compliance with nonsense regulations, making a profit into a loss. Where is Durbin with that? Oh, no he doesn't want to talk about that. As Obama had the nerve to say it may be legal but it's wrong.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
16,885
2,192
126
Why not start with the history of the emerging problem, and the scope of the problem then and now?

After the end of WWII -- coming out of the "Best Years of our Lives" recession -- income and wealth distribution was more even in the US than at any time earlier in our history.

Roosevelt had made a bargain with corporatists. They had the war debt to pay off; Social Security and other reforms had changed the game for the 98%. Labor unions were in an ascendancy. The economic data from those years show that the 98% had sufficient income to save enough before they bought durable goods like cars and washing machines outright. There were no credit cards.

Eventually, corporations began to find loopholes in the regulatory framework which sustained the incomes or decent wages. As that happened, the time-series shows real wages stagnating, while corporate profits took off into the stratosphere.

During the 50's, marginal tax rates for the 2%-ers were close to 90% -- not their overall average tax rate, but the marginal rate applied to the last dollar earned, or the uppermost bracket.

But that has all changed. In the 50's, CEOs "gave themselves" an income package that wasn't more than 20 times the average corporate employee. Now it exceeds 400 times. CEO compensation has increased 1,000%. Meanwhile, real wages have stagnated for other salaried employees -- most of the 98%, or a good part of it. [The recent study by Bloomberg is only one of many.] The Gini Index of wealth distribution is most uneven in Mexico -- Carlos Slim only one example when Jesse Ventura boasts of working for the richest man in Mexico (or perhaps -- the world?) The country that ranks only second to Mexico?

United States of America.

All during the Cold War, both "experts" and politicians told us that countries with such wide disparities in wealth and income were the hot points of world instability, most susceptible to communist insurgencies.

Now we add to this the fact that during the 1950s, multi-national corporations were only then coming into their own. If corporate headquarters were in the US, if board directorships were held mostly by Americans, the movers and shakers were still following Rooseveltian prescriptions.

But now, we have accounting schemes whereby a corporation based in Germany can find a way to avoid taxation by -- say -- declaring certain factors about its organization and employment permitting taxes to be paid in another country. This has been judged to be nothing less than fraud, but loopholes in national and international application of tax law allow it.

There are other symptoms.

In 2007, Halliburton was found by GAO to have made in excess of $8 billion in double charges to the Defense Department as the Iraq War sole-source contractor. They also made close to a billion dollars in fraudulent claims. Not long thereafter, Halliburton's leaders announced that they would relocate corporate headquarters to Dubai, escaping taxation in Texas and the US.

Then there was the Gulf disaster of Deep Horizon and the Macondo Prospect. As soon as Obama announced a deal with BP for an initial $20 billion cleanup settlement, Congressman Barton of Texas stood up and charged Obama with "shaking down a corporation."

It isn't so much a question of the positive status or what prevails in the real world, but a question of what should prevail ideally. Should corporate entities be superior to the nation-state?

And the dirty truth of this matter -- acknowledged no less by James Madison in the Federalist Papers than by Marx 50 years later -- Marx's predictions about the self-destructive forces within capitalism are coming true. And just so we have a clear understanding of what I'm trying to say here -- Marx -produced two major works. Das Capital was simply an intellectual critique of Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations" and an attempt to apply some semblance of a scientific method and paradigm to further understand history. It was the Communist Manifesto that was Marx's undoing and that of a good part of the world until the early 1990s.

Some suggest an international treaty and regime of regulation that makes it difficult for a corporation in a wealthy country to relocate to an impoverished one to avoid taxes in the former.

Otherwise, it is about class struggle and property rights. Property rights are assigned by the State and can be changed by the State. They don't come from God, or any other incredible similar explanation expounded by the Right. Add to this the fact that an idiot son of a Wall Street banker can avoid doing any work for the rest of his life while the inherited assets continue to increase rapidly with no contribution to society or human progress, and we have a recipe for disaster.

Contrary to what Morgan Freeman asserted in recent TV interview -- the myth that great fortunes are lost as well as made -- the odds of that happening to even a minority of super-wealth holders are very, very small.

The odds of something similar happening to a wage earner are much, much higher.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Why not start with the history of the emerging problem, and the scope of the problem then and now?

After the end of WWII -- coming out of the "Best Years of our Lives" recession -- income and wealth distribution was more even in the US than at any time earlier in our history.

Roosevelt had made a bargain with corporatists. They had the war debt to pay off; Social Security and other reforms had changed the game for the 98%. Labor unions were in an ascendancy. The economic data from those years show that the 98% had sufficient income to save enough before they bought durable goods like cars and washing machines outright. There were no credit cards.

Eventually, corporations began to find loopholes in the regulatory framework which sustained the incomes or decent wages. As that happened, the time-series shows real wages stagnating, while corporate profits took off into the stratosphere.

During the 50's, marginal tax rates for the 2%-ers were close to 90% -- not their overall average tax rate, but the marginal rate applied to the last dollar earned, or the uppermost bracket.

But that has all changed. In the 50's, CEOs "gave themselves" an income package that wasn't more than 20 times the average corporate employee. Now it exceeds 400 times. CEO compensation has increased 1,000%. Meanwhile, real wages have stagnated for other salaried employees -- most of the 98%, or a good part of it. [The recent study by Bloomberg is only one of many.] The Gini Index of wealth distribution is most uneven in Mexico -- Carlos Slim only one example when Jesse Ventura boasts of working for the richest man in Mexico (or perhaps -- the world?) The country that ranks only second to Mexico?

United States of America.

All during the Cold War, both "experts" and politicians told us that countries with such wide disparities in wealth and income were the hot points of world instability, most susceptible to communist insurgencies.

Now we add to this the fact that during the 1950s, multi-national corporations were only then coming into their own. If corporate headquarters were in the US, if board directorships were held mostly by Americans, the movers and shakers were still following Rooseveltian prescriptions.

But now, we have accounting schemes whereby a corporation based in Germany can find a way to avoid taxation by -- say -- declaring certain factors about its organization and employment permitting taxes to be paid in another country. This has been judged to be nothing less than fraud, but loopholes in national and international application of tax law allow it.

There are other symptoms.

In 2007, Halliburton was found by GAO to have made in excess of $8 billion in double charges to the Defense Department as the Iraq War sole-source contractor. They also made close to a billion dollars in fraudulent claims. Not long thereafter, Halliburton's leaders announced that they would relocate corporate headquarters to Dubai, escaping taxation in Texas and the US.

Then there was the Gulf disaster of Deep Horizon and the Macondo Prospect. As soon as Obama announced a deal with BP for an initial $20 billion cleanup settlement, Congressman Barton of Texas stood up and charged Obama with "shaking down a corporation."

It isn't so much a question of the positive status or what prevails in the real world, but a question of what should prevail ideally. Should corporate entities be superior to the nation-state?

And the dirty truth of this matter -- acknowledged no less by James Madison in the Federalist Papers than by Marx 50 years later -- Marx's predictions about the self-destructive forces within capitalism are coming true. And just so we have a clear understanding of what I'm trying to say here -- Marx -produced two major works. Das Capital was simply an intellectual critique of Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations" and an attempt to apply some semblance of a scientific method and paradigm to further understand history. It was the Communist Manifesto that was Marx's undoing and that of a good part of the world until the early 1990s.

Some suggest an international treaty and regime of regulation that makes it difficult for a corporation in a wealthy country to relocate to an impoverished one to avoid taxes in the former.

Otherwise, it is about class struggle and property rights. Property rights are assigned by the State and can be changed by the State. They don't come from God, or any other incredible similar explanation expounded by the Right. Add to this the fact that an idiot son of a Wall Street banker can avoid doing any work for the rest of his life while the inherited assets continue to increase rapidly with no contribution to society or human progress, and we have a recipe for disaster.

Contrary to what Morgan Freeman asserted in recent TV interview -- the myth that great fortunes are lost as well as made -- the odds of that happening to even a minority of super-wealth holders are very, very small.

The odds of something similar happening to a wage earner are much, much higher.

Quite a post.

Bottom line is the Pitchforks will be coming for them.

For those that dare to stay Stateside.
 

TheSlamma

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
7,625
5
81
Patriotism is dead, wall street and greed killed it.

There are no morals or values in business, all there is only money.

If the government put the hole in the tax code, there is nothing wrong with using it.
The government put the hole there cause they were paid to by those rich people you sympathize with and will never become one of.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
16,885
2,192
126
LOL, bringing a pitchfork to a gunfight.

Well, here is where my objectivity drifts. In fact, after my retirement, I had a chance to do a lot of reading and writing, and I discovered some things. I became partisan. In my partisanship, I could see I was losing my objectivity.

I keep trying to get it back -- to rein it in.

Sometimes, the worst thing we can do is to descend into over-generalizations and platitudes. Maybe there is wisdom in platitudes; maybe at times there isn't.

But without pitchforks and guns in this forum -- only words -- let me offer this one:

Gold is scarce, and few have much of it; Lead is cheap and there's plenty to go around.

Our political system is a means to have war without pitchforks or guns. I think it is unrealistic to simply assume that it will never fail. And the goal of any political dialog should be to find ways to avoid the pitchforks and guns.

Other than that, one only has moral arguments, and a mass of people can always be driven to the extreme -- rightly or wrongly -- to select their prescription for Justice by extreme means.

Also -- on the matter of political warfare -- it belongs in certain places and certain institutions -- for instance, the US Congress, the media and various forums. Suppose you introduce it into public institutions charged with the implementation of statutes and the regulations written to articulate the statutes? Suppose you corrupt the institutions by bringing the battle there?

If the dialog in the appropriate places for political warfare becomes more and more overwhelmed by falsehoods supporting the beliefs -- no, I mean the DESIRES -- of those with the money to promote them, it can cost a lot. Not just in the purchase of media and dissemination of nonsense, but in the decisions that result.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally Posted by Matt1970
LOL, bringing a pitchfork to a gunfight.

Gold is scarce, and few have much of it; Lead is cheap and there's plenty to go around.

If the dialog in the appropriate places for political warfare becomes more and more overwhelmed by falsehoods supporting the beliefs -- no, I mean the DESIRES -- of those with the money to promote them, it can cost a lot. Not just in the purchase of media and dissemination of nonsense, but in the decisions that result.

He laughs now but when he finds himself on the outnumbered side he won't be laughing anymore.
 

Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
5,435
234
106
So, the net is that we need to blame the politicians (as is usually the case), not whine and complain about the corporations doing exactly what they should logically do based on the framework and parameters created by the laws and regulations.

Blame the voters. They elect the politicians, they are the ones ultimately responsible. I guess you can blame the King of England for losing the war ages ago that eventually put the system in place that the politicians are exploiting .... but I would blame the voters. Not me, I only have a Green Card. :)

Michael
 

Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
3,597
127
106
Why is it when we talk about the rich or corporations it's always about your fair share? What is a fair share for those at the bottom that don't really even pay an income tax or get more back than they pay in?

They're already at the bottom yet you want to talk about taking even more from them?
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
Well, here is where my objectivity drifts. In fact, after my retirement, I had a chance to do a lot of reading and writing, and I discovered some things. I became partisan. In my partisanship, I could see I was losing my objectivity.

I keep trying to get it back -- to rein it in.

Sometimes, the worst thing we can do is to descend into over-generalizations and platitudes. Maybe there is wisdom in platitudes; maybe at times there isn't.

But without pitchforks and guns in this forum -- only words -- let me offer this one:

Gold is scarce, and few have much of it; Lead is cheap and there's plenty to go around.

Our political system is a means to have war without pitchforks or guns. I think it is unrealistic to simply assume that it will never fail. And the goal of any political dialog should be to find ways to avoid the pitchforks and guns.

Other than that, one only has moral arguments, and a mass of people can always be driven to the extreme -- rightly or wrongly -- to select their prescription for Justice by extreme means.

Also -- on the matter of political warfare -- it belongs in certain places and certain institutions -- for instance, the US Congress, the media and various forums. Suppose you introduce it into public institutions charged with the implementation of statutes and the regulations written to articulate the statutes? Suppose you corrupt the institutions by bringing the battle there?

If the dialog in the appropriate places for political warfare becomes more and more overwhelmed by falsehoods supporting the beliefs -- no, I mean the DESIRES -- of those with the money to promote them, it can cost a lot. Not just in the purchase of media and dissemination of nonsense, but in the decisions that result.

The vast majority of the people would never participate here in the US. They are smarter than that. They realize it would only make things worse. The revolution we see people drooling at the mouth over already happened. It's not my fault that all it amounted to was a bunch of whiney self entitled brats smelling up central parks.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
Unpatriotic no, should the tax code be modified yes. The current laws were written in a different time to serve different needs. Currently no politician has the balls to do anything about it.
I don't think it's a matter of having the balls, it's more that the current system is one they know how to navigate to their advantage.

An analogy of sorts. This story is pre-internet so understand that. I used to work for GM. At home one day, I had need of a phone number for the Poletown plant in Hamtramck. I dug out a phone book and there was three and a half pages of General Motors this and General Motors that. Three and a half friggin' pages! Pages of companies that started with the words 'General Motors' this and General Motors that. Companies that I had never in my life heard of. I came to realize that GM had started literally hundreds of companies to provide this service and that service to GM, the parent corporation.

It suddenly hit me why GM was nearly incapable of making decisions or making any meaningful changes. If they tried to cut the costs of one part of their operation, it affected the profits of an offshoot business. Now multiply that by hundreds or perhaps thousands based on the possible depth of the inter dependencies of these offshoot companies. GM was paralyzed into a state where it was nearly impossible to change. Of course they eventually did because they were forced into it. Forced.

The tax code is so broad and far reaching with tentacles here and there, that changing it as a matter of choice will never be done. It's too difficult, too overwhelming and those that cherish the status quo within government will never willingly do it. But they will eventually be forced to do so and they will bring it down upon themselves. They are doing so now.

I just read this morning that 10,000 people are retiring each day. Meanwhile, across our border stream 10,000 people per month. Both groups require much from government. The system will collapse when those in the middle can no longer support the needs of the nation. The math related to it is inescapable. So, the tax code will be changed through force. Is the system being overloaded such that it will collapse as the result of willful intent or through mismanagement? That's one for the historians.

A miniscule number of corporations are "leaving" our shores. The tax revenue they generate is a drop in the bucket. Is their departure newsworthy? Of course. Is it going to lead to our downfall? Highly unlikely. Will our government point the finger of blame at them? Probably, because it will take the focus off government itself. We cannot escape the math and it is going to catch up with us just as the math caught up with GM.

Who will bail the U.S. out?
 

Spungo

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2012
3,217
2
81
Is it unpatriotic to move from New York to Wyoming because of the lower taxes? There's your answer. We should gas everyone in Wyoming. Those traitors.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,797
572
126
It is unpatriotic to attempt to shackle the freedoms of people. How dare anyone suggest that we limit the freedoms of the purest form of job creators




....