when to stop bulking?

[Corporate Thug]

I started exercising to lose weight. I went from 200 pounds to 160, started getting visble abs, but then I decided that I want to add more muscle so I started to bulk. Now I'm at 175...I think the extra carbs are really helping at the gym because although I'm hitting plateaus, I'm getting through them much faster than I was when I was restricting calorie intake. My question is when should I stop bulking and go back to cutting?

Other notes:

- I'm using the 5X5 plan for weight training right now w/ some added weight exercises
- Right now, my cardio consists of two hours of basketball per week
- I'm 5'11.5''

 

[mple]

What are lifts at 160 vs 175?
Length of time between 160 to 175?
Do you look and feel fat?

 

[z1ggy]

Stop bulking once your body fat % gets to a level you are no longer happy with. I'd say keeping it around 10-12% will be just fine.

 

[Corporate Thug]

What are lifts at 160 vs 175?

Well, I'm just going by 5 x 5

Bench went from 110 to 135
OHP from 85 to 100
Deadlift = pretty linear progression here, now at 175
BB went from 105 to 120

Length of time between 160 to 175?

~11 weeks

Do you look and feel fat?

I don't look particularly fat, no. But I do have the belly fat back and lost the abs.

 

[Corporate Thug]

Stop bulking once your body fat % gets to a level you are no longer happy with. I'd say keeping it around 10-12% will be just fine.

I don't know EXACTLY what my body fat is (I have an appoint for a water test in 3 weeks) but I know it was well above 10 even when I slimmed down...huge guess on my behalf but I would put it at 16-18% now.

 

[z1ggy]

I don't know EXACTLY what my body fat is (I have an appoint for a water test in 3 weeks) but I know it was well above 10 even when I slimmed down...huge guess on my behalf but I would put it at 16-18% now.

I was saying 10-12% based on my personal goal. That's generally the range where you see abs without having to "flex". 16% is probably fine to be considered "healthy" but for a fitness enthusiast, I think getting closer to the 10-12% range is a better goal.

Once you get an answer to what your body fat is, go from there. If it really is 16-18%, if it were me, I would try to cut back down to the 12-14% range... Then bulk a bit again.. Cut again... Basically a cycle where you are at a good fat range, and you look and feel solid as far as muscle goes.

This is just my opinion by the way, and it's what my plan currently is now. I was around 20% fat and planned to cut all the way down to 12%, then bulk up 10lb, then re cut back to 10%.

 

[Corporate Thug]

I was saying 10-12% based on my personal goal. That's generally the range where you see abs without having to "flex". 16% is probably fine to be considered "healthy" but for a fitness enthusiast, I think getting closer to the 10-12% range is a better goal.

Once you get an answer to what your body fat is, go from there. If it really is 16-18%, if it were me, I would try to cut back down to the 12-14% range... Then bulk a bit again.. Cut again... Basically a cycle where you are at a good fat range, and you look and feel solid as far as muscle goes.

This is just my opinion by the way, and it's what my plan currently is now. I was around 20% fat and planned to cut all the way down to 12%, then bulk up 10lb, then re cut back to 10%.

Thanks for the response. I do have a question though: the body fat tests are pretty pricey ($50 each test) so I don't want to go back every month or so...let say it comes back 16-18%, then I start a cut to my TARGET of 12%...I'm not sure when to stop the cut and restart the bulk without dropping $50 per month.

 

[mple]

Hard to answer without knowing your overall goals. If getting stronger and achieving a better physique was your primary goal then I'd suggest to keep bulking at a slight surplus. I wouldn't stop bulking until bench, squat, and deads were at 2, 3, and 4 plates respectively. It may take another 1-2 years to get those numbers, and another 6 months to cut, but it's unlikely you'll achieve the same results if you're constantly switching between bulking and cutting.

 

[Corporate Thug]

Hard to answer without knowing your overall goals. If getting stronger and achieving a better physique was your primary goal then I'd suggest to keep bulking at a slight surplus. I wouldn't stop bulking until bench, squat, and deads were at 2, 3, and 4 plates respectively. It may take another 1-2 years to get those numbers, and another 6 months to cut, but it's unlikely you'll achieve the same results if you're constantly switching between bulking and cutting.

you mean 2, 3, and 4 on EACH SIDE? or total? Are plates 45lbs? If it's each side, I'll probably weigh 300+ pounds pounds before I achieve that kind of weight.

Initially my goal was to use the gym to lose a few extra pounds so I was more focused on cardio but then I started to move to weights and I changed my focus to getting bigger.

 

[Blackjack200]

No, you don't need to be 300 lbs to have a 225 bench, 315 squat, and 405 dead.

BTW, what is your squat? It doesn't look like you listed that one.

 

[Corporate Thug]

No, you don't need to be 300 lbs to have a 225 bench, 315 squat, and 405 dead.

BTW, what is your squat? It doesn't look like you listed that one.

I know I don't have to be that heavy to put up those numbers, I'm just saying that at the pace I'm gaining weight, I WILL be that heavy before I see those kind of gains.

Yup, I missed that. Squat is at 155. I pulled a back muscle that was being a really pain so I haven't progressed much on the squat as of late. It felt good during the last two sessions though so I'm hoping to see some good gains squatting again.

 

[Blackjack200]

I know I don't have to be that heavy to put up those numbers, I'm just saying that at the pace I'm gaining weight, I WILL be that heavy before I see those kind of gains.

Yup, I missed that. Squat is at 155. I pulled a back muscle that was being a really pain so I haven't progressed much on the squat as of late. It felt good during the last two sessions though so I'm hoping to see some good gains squatting again.

I don't think you'll continue gaining weight at that rate.

 

[Koing]

If you want to bulk I'd say bulk for 6months. Your bulk will really slow down a lot. 160-175lbs in 11 weeks is A LOT.

Do you monitor what you eat or have a rough idea of the macro split?

I once read this by some person about when it's time to start cutting. Start to cut when you get embarrassed about being naked in front of a girl. Different people have VASTLY different levels of fat that they are *okay* with.

Koing

 

[Corporate Thug]

If you want to bulk I'd say bulk for 6months. Your bulk will really slow down a lot. 160-175lbs in 11 weeks is A LOT.

Do you monitor what you eat or have a rough idea of the macro split?

The only macro I keep track of is protein, which is between 100 - 125 grams per day (tends to be on the higher end during the weekend where I have easier access to protein rich foot like chicken and fish). Unfortunately, I don't keep track of the carbs.

Before when I was losing weight, I was consumed about 1500 cals/day. So when I flipped the switch, I just started eating without paying much attention to the carbos.[/QUOTE]

I once read this by some person about when it's time to start cutting. Start to cut when you get embarrassed about being naked in front of a girl. Different people have VASTLY different levels of fat that they are *okay* with.

Koing

Honestly dude, at 160 w/ semi visible abs I would still probably be somewhat embarrassed. Same goes for 175 but fortunately, my arms and shoulders have come in a little bit to make up for the gut.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

When you can't comb your own head is the time to stop bulking duh...

 

[repoman0]

You don't need to bulk at all right now to put up a lot more on your lifts. 5'11 at 175 is a good place to be, imo, to get to 225+/- squat before worrying about putting on any more body weight.

Then again I'm really not a fan of the bulking/cutting thing for whatever reason. I went from 140ish to ~163 in about a year and ever since I stopped drinking obscene amounts of whole milk, have stuck there +/- a pound without worrying about diet (actually I do make an effort to eat more than I want to or I'd lose weight). Also I think the "slow/controlled bulk" over the course of a year allowed me to put on pretty much all muscle with very little fat.

Point is, you're good at your current body weight, just keep it up!

 

[z1ggy]

Thanks for the response. I do have a question though: the body fat tests are pretty pricey ($50 each test) so I don't want to go back every month or so...let say it comes back 16-18%, then I start a cut to my TARGET of 12%...I'm not sure when to stop the cut and restart the bulk without dropping $50 per month.

The best you can do than is a rough estimate based on the math. If you are 175lb and you end up being 16% fat, then thats 28lb fat, which means you'd be 175-28= 147lb muscle.

To lose ONLY fat and keep the 147lb muscle, to get to 12% fat, you'd need to lose roughly 7lb. Of course, you could try to maintain the 175, and gain some muscle and lose some fat, but that's pretty hard.

And as others have said, this is not going to be a switch every month, or even every other month. The longer you do these "cycles" the longer they will take.

For example, to go from 20% fat to 12% fat, it's going to likely take me close to 7-8 month (with out losing muscle). To gain the 5-10lb of muscle after that, will likely take another 3-4 month. To then cut even further with out losing muscle would probably take another 4 months. You see, just to change my weight a net of -15lb and my overall bodyfat a net of -10% would take well over a year, and likely closer to a year and a half.

 

[preslove]

Thanks for the response. I do have a question though: the body fat tests are pretty pricey ($50 each test) so I don't want to go back every month or so...let say it comes back 16-18%, then I start a cut to my TARGET of 12%...I'm not sure when to stop the cut and restart the bulk without dropping $50 per month.

I know I'm a newb, but why not buy one of these? http://www.amazon.com/Omron-HBF-306C...cm_wl_huc_item

 

[Corporate Thug]

I know I'm a newb, but why not buy one of these? http://www.amazon.com/Omron-HBF-306C...cm_wl_huc_item

I've heard pretty bad thing about that device...margin or error isn't all that good...esp if you are trying to monitor small ranges.

 

[momeNt]

Ever give any thought to a body recomposition lean gains diet approach? Doesn't necessarily need to follow all the fasting guidelines and you could make it fit your schedule.

http://sareyko.net/leancalc/

Depending on your weightlifting goals, you may like this kind of diet. A lot of people remark that their lifts don't progress compared to a bulk, but if you are concerned about your appearance more than your gains, it may work nicely for you.

For those that experience their lifts stalling. I wonder what the results are when you compare 12 months of lean gains vs 8 month bulk 4 month cut. On the cut your lifts aren't going to progress much, and you only have 8 months of bulk gains compared to 12 months of lean gains. I wonder if it nets out to the same difference?

 

[mple]

The leangains approach adds an unnecessary degree of complexity imo. Overall energy balance and sufficient micro/macronutrient intake is what determines your primary outcome. I'm not saying it won't work, I just prefer to keep things as simple as possible. I'm not particularly a fan of body recomposition either. Just lift weights on a calorie deficit until you're at your desired BF and then transition into a bulk.

OP, I'm not sure what version of 5x5 you're running, but look into ICF 5x5. It includes several accessory lifts that augment some of the sticking points of the big 3.

 

[Corporate Thug]

The leangains approach adds an unnecessary degree of complexity imo. Overall energy balance and sufficient micro/macronutrient intake is what determines your primary outcome. I'm not saying it won't work, I just prefer to keep things as simple as possible. I'm not particularly a fan of body recomposition either. Just lift weights on a calorie deficit until you're at your desired BF and then transition into a bulk.

OP, I'm not sure what version of 5x5 you're running, but look into ICF 5x5. It includes several accessory lifts that augment some of the sticking points of the big 3.

thanks for the head up...I just looked into ICF 5X5...turns out I was already doing most of the other lifts anyway so I will make it a point to stick with it.

 

[purbeast0]

op you can easily get to 225 on the bench without weighing 300lbs.

i'm the same exact height as you and was 150lbs or so when i started lifting when i was like 18. i couldnt even bench 95lbs 8 times when i started. then when i graduated college at 22 i was like 165 or 170lbs and i was really cut but was lean/skinny as shit. i think i could bench 185lb like 6 times or so.

after i graduated i decided to try and actually get bigger. now i'm 32 and i've been as heavy as 218lbs benching 315lb a couple reps. when i was around 190 or 195lbs i could do 225lb on the bench 8x pretty easily. so it's definitely possible that you can increase your strength significantly.

i'm currently around 198lbs coming back from vacation after about 3-4 months of trying to lean up and i got down about 15lbs in 3-4 or so months. my routine is different now and i'm doing dumbell flat bench, but i start with incline barbell and am doing 225lb on there 6x.

moral of the story - you can get significant gains without getting "HUGE" as it seems you previously though. i go through phases where i want to get big again but then i also like being leaner. so it's fun to kind of just go on cycles of bulking/leaning.

 

[z1ggy]

op you can easily get to 225 on the bench without weighing 300lbs.

i'm the same exact height as you and was 150lbs or so when i started lifting when i was like 18. i couldnt even bench 95lbs 8 times when i started. then when i graduated college at 22 i was like 165 or 170lbs and i was really cut but was lean/skinny as shit. i think i could bench 185lb like 6 times or so.

after i graduated i decided to try and actually get bigger. now i'm 32 and i've been as heavy as 218lbs benching 315lb a couple reps. when i was around 190 or 195lbs i could do 225lb on the bench 8x pretty easily. so it's definitely possible that you can increase your strength significantly.

i'm currently around 198lbs coming back from vacation after about 3-4 months of trying to lean up and i got down about 15lbs in 3-4 or so months. my routine is different now and i'm doing dumbell flat bench, but i start with incline barbell and am doing 225lb on there 6x.

moral of the story - you can get significant gains without getting "HUGE" as it seems you previously though. i go through phases where i want to get big again but then i also like being leaner. so it's fun to kind of just go on cycles of bulking/leaning.

Awesome results, this def gives me some inspiration.

 

[Koing]

Awesome results, this def gives me some inspiration.

It's about progressive overload over time. Everyone can BP 100 with enough training over a period of time, but not everyone is going to BP 200.

Just stick with training and BP 100 will come to you.

Koing