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When does life begin?

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ivwshane said:
Just to keep things factual, that's not what the courts said. They said:

"The Court later rejected Roe's trimester framework, while affirming Roe's central holding that a person has a right to abortion until viability.[1] The Roe decision defined "viable" as being "potentially able to live outside the mother's womb, albeit with artificial aid", adding that viability "is usually placed at about seven months (28 weeks) but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks."

I happen to agree with that, however in my opinion the health of the mother outweighs that of the still unborn baby no matter how far along it is and any such action that jeopardizes the mothers health but will save the baby should only be made by the mother.
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Their are no actual laws in many states restricting any such abortion, and the courts also ruled that states must allow abortion until the moment of birth for reasons of physical and mental health, including depression.

The court only said in the decision you mention that states have the ability to place very limited restrictions on abortion after viability, but the restrictions they can place still have significant limits. States are also not required to have any limits, and many don't.
 
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DCal430 said:
Their are no actual laws in many states restricting any such abortion, and the courts also ruled that states must allow abortion until the moment of birth for reasons of physical and mental health, including depression.

The court only said in the decision you mention that states have the ability to place very limited restrictions on abortion after viability, but the restrictions they can place still have significant limits. States are also not required to have any limits, and many don't.
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Yes that is correct...
 
DCal430 said:
this is why someone can an abortion the day before the delivery date.
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DCal430 said:
I never said you can just claim you are depressed, you must be diagnosed as such. But mental health illness can be easily faked.
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You tried to pull this one before and got clobbered over the head for it. You never produced a single piece of evidence back then, either.
 
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ivwshane said:
"The Court later rejected Roe's trimester framework, while affirming Roe's central holding that a person has a right to abortion until viability..
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Which is a completely non-nonsensical idea. Why would a woman's body stop being her own just because the fetus reached a certain gestational age?
 
SheHateMe said:
You tried to pull this one before and got clobbered over the head for it. You never produced a single piece of evidence back then, either.
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The laws against collecting such data, but the court decision is known, and proven. It is also known fact that late term abortions are done for reason of clinical depression.

I listed states that allow abortion until the moment of birth for any reason, the is no denying that some states do allow this.

While I can not prove women are faking mental illness to get an abortion, which isn't something one can prove. It can't be hard to get a doctor convinced you have suicidal depression.
 
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nehalem256 said:
Which is a completely non-nonsensical idea. Why would a woman's body stop being her own just because the fetus reached a certain gestational age?
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I actually like the logic trap you lay out with this argument. The problem with it is that the only people who are trapped by it are the echo-bros that actually believe the 'war on women' platform.
The real reason the left stops 'allowing' abortions at viability is NOT because the woman's body stops being her own, but rather that there is now another person's body that has a right to life stronger than the woman's right to kill him/her.
 
stormkroe said:
I actually like the logic trap you lay out with this argument. The problem with it is that the only people who are trapped by it are the echo-bros that actually believe the 'war on women' platform.
The real reason the left stops 'allowing' abortions at viability is NOT because the woman's body stops being her own, but rather that there is now another person's body that has a right to life stronger than the woman's right to kill him/her.
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Most abortion rights groups oppose any restrictions on abortion after viability, and many states have non restrictions. So no the left doesn't stop allowing abortions after 25 weeks.
 
DCal430 said:
Most abortion rights groups oppose any restrictions on abortion after viability, and many states have non restrictions. So no the left doesn't stop allowing abortions after 25 weeks.
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It's my understanding that much of 'the left' are OK with the viability compromise, I didn't go into specifics of the percentage of who does and doesn't because that wasn't the point of my post. My point was that 'the war on women' campaign was a stupid appeal to emotion, and if it were real BOTH parties are guilty of it. The dems are only guilty of it for a smaller percentage of the gestation period, which is what I think Nehalem points out in every one of these threads but people are too busy insulting him and high-fiving each other to realize he's right.
 
DCal430 said:
Most abortion rights groups oppose any restrictions on abortion after viability, and many states have non restrictions. So no the left doesn't stop allowing abortions after 25 weeks.
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Who is this "left" you keep talking about? Should we all just start making generalizations?

I've never heard anyone say abortion needs to be allowed up until birth. Certainly not by any mainstream liberal.

How many abortion rights groups are there anyway?
 
HeXen said:
Morals aside, it's not like humans are not starting to overcrowd the planet and resources or anything. We are like a bunch of rabbits stuck in a fenced in garden with no predators...it's not going to end pretty.
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Wrong on so many levels. The number of fat Americans should tell you access to calories isn't an issue. If anyone is starving today anywhere in the world, it's because of politics, not actual scarcity of food supplies. If distribution were perfect, we'd all have enough food.

Second, as a country develops, birth rates start to decline to replacement level and even below. In some nations in Europe, populations would actually be shrinking if not for immigration. The US birthrate has also been in decline for years.
 
nehalem256 said:
Which is a completely non-nonsensical idea. Why would a woman's body stop being her own just because the fetus reached a certain gestational age?
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A woman's body is forever her own (*except the gov't usually also won't let her put whatever drugs she wishes into it, and won't let her let others rent it for sex). When did she lose "ownership" over it?
 
DCal430 said:
The laws against collecting such data, but the court decision is known, and proven. It is also known fact that late term abortions are done for reason of clinical depression.

I listed states that allow abortion until the moment of birth for any reason, the is no denying that some states do allow this.

While I can not prove women are faking mental illness to get an abortion, which isn't something one can prove. It can't be hard to get a doctor convinced you have suicidal depression.
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The burden of proof is on you - provide verifiable facts from reputable sources.
 
To me its not alive unless it knows its alive 😛 It is still a life though, but i have no problem with abortions as the law currently stands.
 
DCal430 said:
Their are no actual laws in many states restricting any such abortion, and the courts also ruled that states must allow abortion until the moment of birth for reasons of physical and mental health, including depression.
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"Whoa there kid, I'm just the abortionist."
382946-574138265946664-1987717310-n-2-jpg_215416.jpg
 
Jaskalas said:
I'll throw this out there for a suggestion:

Week 8 & 9 – Gestational Age (Fetal Age 6-7 weeks)

By this point in the pregnancy, everything that is present in an adult human is present in the developing embryo. The embryo has reached the end of the embryonic stage and now enters the fetal stage. A strong fetal heartbeat should be detectable by ultrasound, with a heartbeat of 140-170 bpm by the 9th week.
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This is similar to what I define as the point that life begins: viability: when the mother is no longer required, biologically, for survival.
 
zsdersw said:
This is similar to what I define as the point that life begins: viability: when the mother is no longer required, biologically, for survival.
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The problem with "viability" is that it's not now, and will continue not to be, a fixed point in time, as medical science advances. I expect that sometime in the near future, we'll reach the point that a mother won't be needed at all - we'll be able to grow a fetus in a completely artificial womb.
 
Mursilis said:
A woman's body is forever her own (*except the gov't usually also won't let her put whatever drugs she wishes into it, and won't let her let others rent it for sex). When did she lose "ownership" over it?
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Apparently at ~25 weeks gestation at which point most Democrats magically turn into pro-life Republicans 😀

ivwshane said:
Who is this "left" you keep talking about? Should we all just start making generalizations?

I've never heard anyone say abortion needs to be allowed up until birth. Certainly not by any mainstream liberal.

How many abortion rights groups are there anyway?
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Mainly because they are hypocrites. The whole pro-choice argument is based on it being the woman's body. It doesn't stop being the woman's body when it reaches some magical gestational age.

In fact arguing that there is some magical age where abortion in no longer allowable is essentially exactly the same as the Pro-Life argument. You are no down to just quibbling over dates. Which makes it absurd to have abortion decided by the Judicial branch.
 
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