What's your gasoline costing?

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dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
23,915
2,109
126
AWD would be really helpful for the vehicle towing the spun car out and to the body shop since that’s the most realistic outcome of any vehicle spinning off the road.
Here in the great plains states, I can't think of many people I know who haven't spun off the road at least once. The vast majority of us never needed a tow. I've only spun off the highway one time driving an AMC Concorde. Luckily, the ditch was quite shallow there and I was able to drive away. But its been close several other times--especially when I drove a Honda Civic that thing was crap on snow. I drive a Forester now whenever I can in the ice/snow.
 
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repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
3,844
2,304
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Here in the great plains states, I can't think of many people I know who haven't spun off the road at least once. The vast majority of us never needed a tow. I've only spun off the highway one time driving an AMC Concorde. Luckily, the ditch was quite shallow there and I was able to drive away. But its been close several other times--especially when I drove a Honda Civic that thing was crap on snow. I drive a Forester now whenever I can in the ice/snow.
Very different from here in New England. Spinning off the road to me means into a curb or car in the city or burbs and into a tree otherwise.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
62,926
9,868
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twitter.com
You need a real 4X4 up there although a newer Subaru/other good AWD SUV with snow-tires will get through 90% of the snow depth of a non-modified ford pickup.

Mechanical 4WD intended for off-road/heavy duty really isn't that great for passenger use.

When I drove to northern Vermont/New Hampshire to ski in my Subaru(s) all the time we used to joke that it was the "Ford Explorer slalom" because whenever it snowed you would see them facing the wrong way in the ditch! (to be fair this had as much to do with the soccer-moms driving the Fords then anything else)

;)
Haha yeah some people think 4x4 or AWD is some kind of miracle that will prevent you from losing control. Still need to drive decently. When starting to go out of control I find it's best to just let go the gas, don't hit the brakes. In fact in some situations even hitting the gas can help. And most importantly leave lot of distance between you and car in front because you don't know what kind of idiot thing that car might do, like decide to stop for no reason.

No amount of 4x4 or traction control will save you from thin ice, either. :p Just put an insurance claim as hitting wild life. Fish.

 

Torn Mind

Diamond Member
Nov 25, 2012
8,729
1,586
126
You need a real 4X4 up there although a newer Subaru/other good AWD SUV with snow-tires will get through 90% of the snow depth of a non-modified ford pickup.

Mechanical 4WD intended for off-road/heavy duty really isn't that great for passenger use.

When I drove to northern Vermont/New Hampshire to ski in my Subaru(s) all the time we used to joke that it was the "Ford Explorer slalom" because whenever it snowed you would see them facing the wrong way in the ditch! (to be fair this had as much to do with the soccer-moms driving the Fords then anything else)

;)
That and other women are the population that should be questioned the most for purchasing a truck, especially if they're suburban moms.

Explorers/Rangers of the past are another classic example of Ford almost engineering something good but leaving something behind to cause a major failure on the road, that being the transmission valve gasket. Great mechanic's special for those in the know, because you can get a small truck on the cheap.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
32,169
20,776
136
Driven FWD vehicles my whole life, including in ski country. I got along just fine without ever getting stuck. Came close to being stuck a single time: trying to leave a space in a poorly plowed and somewhat slushy lot, but rocked the car out of the space, and I had a snow shovel in the trunk if it really came to that.
Climbing hills when it is snowing or sleeting with FWD or RWD vs. AWD is night and day different.
 
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Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
23,620
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Haha yeah some people think 4x4 or AWD is some kind of miracle that will prevent you from losing control. Still need to drive decently. When starting to go out of control I find it's best to just let go the gas, don't hit the brakes. In fact in some situations even hitting the gas can help. And most importantly leave lot of distance between you and car in front because you don't know what kind of idiot thing that car might do, like decide to stop for no reason.

No amount of 4x4 or traction control will save you from thin ice, either. :p Just put an insurance claim as hitting wild life. Fish.

Especially with a manual transmission! With a "real" 4x4 (real = locking center diff) equipped with a manual it's key to mash the clutch if you start to slide on-road in full 4WD otherwise you can go into an immediate "compression-braking" induced 4-wheel skid. Old automatics can do the same thing.

In the world of anti-lock brakes and stability-control this is far less of an issue since you can just "stand on the brakes" but most of those older Fords lacked both.

As for that last problem I'd suggest a life-raft! :p
 
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BudAshes

Lifer
Jul 20, 2003
13,456
2,490
136
121
Driven FWD vehicles my whole life, including in ski country. I got along just fine without ever getting stuck. Came close to being stuck a single time: trying to leave a space in a poorly plowed and somewhat slushy lot, but rocked the car out of the space, and I had a snow shovel in the trunk if it really came to that.

I have to disagree with you here. When I was young and poor I drove fwd sedan in the snow lots of times and it sucked. I'm very experienced in snow driving and carried chains so I never got stuck but it is no fun at all, not to mention chain control requiring you to put chains on in a snowstorm if you don't have AWD/4WD.
 
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Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
23,620
5,581
136
THIS was my favorite thing to drive in the snow ever. (2003 Outback) It was pretty much unstoppable.... looks aren't everything!

Staying in control was easy in any conditions BUT tap the gas and the rear-end swung right out like an old RWD. (but totally controllable) It made driving in the snow fun.

This one isn't mine although I do have pics somewhere:

16047514.jpg
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
27,431
889
126
By far the biggest problem with EV's has nothing to do with the vehicles themselves. Not saying that ICE vehicles are not even worse overall but mining for resources to make batteries is a serious problem.

:confused:


It is sad that miners are not getting their fair share and suffering major health consequences while others get very rich.



I have a long post history of railing against EVs. My opinions have not changed but I am open minded.

My main concerns (dont bother arguing, you are wasting our time, Ive heard it all):

1) The strain on already strained electric grids that are under severe strain from all the stupid electronics we already power 24x7 from smart devices to 70 inch flat screens and full time security systems. Now you want to add millions of EVs to the equation? LOL

2) Our stupid attempt to take homes off natural gas and make them 100% electric, which is stupid. You need alternative sources of energy in this energy starved world. When Texas went dark and the water went out, we had natural gas heaters and stoves that ran just fine - thank you - and melted snow for water.

3) We currently do not have enough natural resources in high enough abundance to give every person who wants to own an EV at an affordable price point.

4) EV battery cars have been known to catch fire spontaneously, and those that do catch fire in an accident can burn for days or simply reignite after being put out and burn for days. They even recently sank a tanker ship.

etc, etc, etc


So full EV is not for me.

However, I think hybrid approaches are what make the most sense to me. Again, alternative energy sources.
 

Torn Mind

Diamond Member
Nov 25, 2012
8,729
1,586
126
It is sad that miners are not getting their fair share and suffering major health consequences while others get very rich.



I have a long post history of railing against EVs. My opinions have not changed but I am open minded.

My main concerns (dont bother arguing, you are wasting our time, Ive heard it all):

1) The strain on already strained electric grids that are under severe strain from all the stupid electronics we already power 24x7 from smart devices to 70 inch flat screens and full time security systems. Now you want to add millions of EVs to the equation? LOL

2) Our stupid attempt to take homes off natural gas and make them 100% electric, which is stupid. You need alternative sources of energy in this energy starved world. When Texas went dark and the water went out, we had natural gas heaters and stoves that ran just fine - thank you - and melted snow for water.

3) We currently do not have enough natural resources in high enough abundance to give every person who wants to own an EV at an affordable price point.

4) EV battery cars have been known to catch fire spontaneously, and those that do catch fire in an accident can burn for days or simply reignite after being put out and burn for days. They even recently sank a tanker ship.

etc, etc, etc


So full EV is not for me.

However, I think hybrid approaches are what make the most sense to me. Again, alternative energy sources.
Would level 1 charging in a suburban house really put much strain on the grid? It's basically the same as running a space heater.

The fire hazard is a legitimate cause for concern, both for spontaneous ones within a house and for crashes, where first responders have to prepare accordingly in possibly dealing with live metal. No doubt, there will be plenty of cases before features get engineered into the vehicles, much like how the old ICEs were dangerous operate(the electric starter was borne out of someone's death).

Where EVs will always be lacking is long distance commute. The U.S is big and some people do engage in interstate activities. EVs will always lose in that arena. There is no way a supercharger in the countryside can charge affordable rates because building infrastructure to such places(truck stops?) is going to cost a pretty penny.
 

esquared

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 8, 2000
22,441
3,844
136
Death Valley is always going to be way higher in normal times, compared to the rest of the state.

Stovepipe Wells is 2.00/gal cheaper than furnace creek.

 
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Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
62,926
9,868
126
twitter.com
Wow, going to need to add another digit to the sign lol. They had to do this here after 9/11. Our prices were always 2 digits before that. Think gas was like 70c or so then shot to over a dollar. Good ol days when inflation was not as bad.

Looks like it's creeping down here. 1.90ish as of ~14h ago according to ontariogasprices.com. Will probably get updated shortly. Good to see it's coming down though. My truck's tank has lasted me so far.
 
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K1052

Lifer
Aug 21, 2003
40,218
18,306
136
Would level 1 charging in a suburban house really put much strain on the grid? It's basically the same as running a space heater.

The fire hazard is a legitimate cause for concern, both for spontaneous ones within a house and for crashes, where first responders have to prepare accordingly in possibly dealing with live metal. No doubt, there will be plenty of cases before features get engineered into the vehicles, much like how the old ICEs were dangerous operate(the electric starter was borne out of someone's death).

Where EVs will always be lacking is long distance commute. The U.S is big and some people do engage in interstate activities. EVs will always lose in that arena. There is no way a supercharger in the countryside can charge affordable rates because building infrastructure to such places(truck stops?) is going to cost a pretty penny.
Most of his post is simply wrong. There is plenty of capacity on the grid for EVs especially overnight and in the middle of the day. Lol, no a 110V charger is not going to "strain the grid".
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
62,926
9,868
126
twitter.com
The people who think it will strain the grid probably live in California. Pretty sure trying to blow dry your hair is enough to cause a brownout over there if it's not off peak. :p

But yeah if I had an EV I'd probably use the level 1 charger most of the time overnight. On days off in the day time I'd plug into the solar outlet. I'd probably look at adding more solar panels too. Don't really have a good spot though. House roof is too hard to reach with a long pole to take the snow off. But I'd try to figure out something.

What I can see maybe putting a strain on the grid is super chargers, if there are like 10 of them in one spot, you could be looking at over 1mw of power potentially. I assume the hydro company would just give those places their own substation transformer off a high voltage transmission line though.

It's always possible to upgrade transmission and even distribution lines to higher voltage too which allows for more wattage at it's amp capacity. That does require changing out all the transformers on that line though so it's not an easy job.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
64,406
18,562
136
Death Valley is always going to be way higher in normal times, compared to the rest of the state.

Stovepipe Wells is 2.00/gal cheaper than furnace creek.

It’s funny in that Stovepipe Wells is the more isolated of the two.
 

Torn Mind

Diamond Member
Nov 25, 2012
8,729
1,586
126
The people who think it will strain the grid probably live in California. Pretty sure trying to blow dry your hair is enough to cause a brownout over there if it's not off peak. :p

But yeah if I had an EV I'd probably use the level 1 charger most of the time overnight. On days off in the day time I'd plug into the solar outlet. I'd probably look at adding more solar panels too. Don't really have a good spot though. House roof is too hard to reach with a long pole to take the snow off. But I'd try to figure out something.

What I can see maybe putting a strain on the grid is super chargers, if there are like 10 of them in one spot, you could be looking at over 1mw of power potentially. I assume the hydro company would just give those places their own substation transformer off a high voltage transmission line though.

It's always possible to upgrade transmission and even distribution lines to higher voltage too which allows for more wattage at it's amp capacity. That does require changing out all the transformers on that line though so it's not an easy job.
If people have easy outlet access and a small commute, EVs can be just another car. It’s in more commercial/professional or heavy-duty use cases where it may fall short without grid enhancements.

So people with SFHs or townhouses with adjacent parking can easily transition.

Anything with a big common lot will be a less friendly place logistically and possibly financially.

Unlike small countries(human stupidity is always going to pop up, some truck stop in the middle of nowhere will have to invest in a lot of upgrades to the supposed long-distance electric tractor trailer can get shit done on time.

I would hack my 240v wiring for level 2 charging before hiring an electrician.
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
27,431
889
126
The people who think it will strain the grid probably live in California. Pretty sure trying to blow dry your hair is enough to cause a brownout over there if it's not off peak. :p

But yeah if I had an EV I'd probably use the level 1 charger most of the time overnight. On days off in the day time I'd plug into the solar outlet. I'd probably look at adding more solar panels too. Don't really have a good spot though. House roof is too hard to reach with a long pole to take the snow off. But I'd try to figure out something.

What I can see maybe putting a strain on the grid is super chargers, if there are like 10 of them in one spot, you could be looking at over 1mw of power potentially. I assume the hydro company would just give those places their own substation transformer off a high voltage transmission line though.

It's always possible to upgrade transmission and even distribution lines to higher voltage too which allows for more wattage at it's amp capacity. That does require changing out all the transformers on that line though so it's not an easy job.
If every EV owner were required to go solar I would no longer complain about the strain they will cause.

My brother spent $40,000 on panels and sells electricity to the grid.

No, he doesn't own an EV....he recently went almost totally blind from glaucoma and can no longer drive.

Which reminds me to warn everyone to please take care of your eyes. Good sight is a treasure that cannot be replaced!
 
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Torn Mind

Diamond Member
Nov 25, 2012
8,729
1,586
126
Death Valley is always going to be way higher in normal times, compared to the rest of the state.

Stovepipe Wells is 2.00/gal cheaper than furnace creek.

Gotta suck living there. Some other places in Cali what to have water transported there.

I mean, it's one of those areas in which Redfin is NOT available. So there isn't much housing activity and it's probably "cheap".
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,785
62
91
If every EV owner were required to go solar I would no longer complain about the strain they will cause.

My brother spent $40,000 on panels and sells electricity to the grid.

No, he doesn't own an EV....he recently went almost totally blind from glaucoma and can no longer drive.

Which reminds me to warn everyone to please take care of your eyes. Good sight is a treasure that cannot be replaced!
Utility companies are phasing out "Net Metering" ...solar panel investors will be on their own shortly.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
62,926
9,868
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If I had an EV I would probably want to expand my solar setup. One of the best parts of an EV is that you can technically charge it for free. Can't make your own gas for a gas car, but you can make your own electricity for an EV.
 

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