Btw, Nefrodite, another reason for increased production costs is Nvidia and ATI pushing so hard with new video stuff. Supporting that...all the design work and artwork...adds a huge amount to the overall cost. I just think it sucks future games might only be able to hold 1 or 2 discs worth of that great art....simply because of a stupid packaging size restriction.
yup, but i'm happy about that
as far as we've come, we've still got a LONG way to go.
yup, but i'm happy about that
as far as we've come, we've still got a LONG way to go. << You've also REFUSED to answer my question: Considering you've NEVER received more than a jewel case with your PSX and DC games and a DVD case with your XBox and PS2 games and they cost $50, WHY THE HELL IS IT A SIGN OF EVIL CORPORATE GREED WHEN PC GAME MAKERS CUT DOWN ON THE EXCESS PACKAGING?!?!?!?!?!?!? >>
I dont own any consoles.
<< You've also REFUSED to answer my question: Considering you've NEVER received more than a jewel case with your PSX and DC games and a DVD case with your XBox and PS2 games and they cost $50, WHY THE HELL IS IT A SIGN OF EVIL CORPORATE GREED WHEN PC GAME MAKERS CUT DOWN ON THE EXCESS PACKAGING?!?!?!?!?!?!? >>
I don't own any consoles either and never have owned one. Even when I was 12yo, I owned a computer with 64K memory and typed in games from computer magazines. Why have I never owned a console? Dumbed down games for either kiddies or b-baller's, or people smokin' the weed! I like most first generation PC gamers would rather have substance and a challenge in their games.
You people just don't seem to realize that this is a serious step that the PC Gaming company took without giving us gamer's a choice. This is going to lead to the yet smaller DVD box, with just one CD and a slim 20page manual. How lame! I was reading some opinions on other sites, and someone mentioned this was started by the Interactive Entertainment Merchants Association They have been pushing publishers for a couple of years to a standard size box. They have an article on the front page of their website. I suggest people who don't like these smaller boxes, contact them and let your voice be heard.
And for those that argue, that this will give retailers more shelve space, you better go look at the shelves in the store. I was in a Best Buy and another superstore, and the PC software section has had open space for the past two months or so. The shelves looked bare in some places!
<< And for those that argue, that this will give retailers more shelve space, you better go look at the shelves in the store. I was in a Best Buy and another superstore, and the PC software section has had open space for the past two months or so. The shelves looked bare in some places! >>
It sounds like it worked then!
I was talking about before ALL the small boxes showed up. Retailers always had enough space. In fact, retailers do not like bare shelves! They are going to have a harder time filling the shelves with smaller boxes. They probably will just spread them out a bit, to make it look like they have more product.
Oh, boo! No one gave you a choice? Wah! Po' baby! Jeez...when they did away with glass pop bottles (if you're old enough to remember those), did they ask your opinion?
Other than the oft-repeated, but never justified bleating that some games require bigger boxes, no one has come up with a GOOD reason why they shouldn't be made smaller other than no one asked their permission.
Lame.
Other than the oft-repeated, but never justified bleating that some games require bigger boxes, no one has come up with a GOOD reason why they shouldn't be made smaller other than no one asked their permission.
Lame.
I don't know where you live, but from the stores near me:
Electronic Botique has always had a small store with floor to cieling large box games. DVD cases would deffinitely give them more room and an easier way to browse selection as well.
CompUSA has moved their game section 3 times to give it more space and each time they have filled up every shelf to the point where if you move a box you are likely to knock another on the floor.
Bestbuy has a massive warehouse, they usually don't have a space problem with PC games, but they deffinitely don't have a lot of extra room. I would rather see the PC game section as easy to navigate as the ps2/xbox sections are.
Some of you seem to be insinuating that if these standard boxes turn into DVD cases then game makers won't even be able to make the game they want because people won't be able to understand it. That sounds pretty silly to me. I can think of 10 different ways to get a bible sized manual to consumers who really need one. Perhaps with all the shelf space they save on DVD cases they could have a section called "bible sized manuals". Charge 5 dollars for a manual, I think that would be fair.
"I just think it sucks future games might only be able to hold 1 or 2 discs worth of that great art...."
I don't see how 1-2 4.7 GB DVDs would not suffice on artwork. Perhaps moving to DVD cases would help accelerate the use of actual DVD software as well. Wouldn't that be sweet.
Electronic Botique has always had a small store with floor to cieling large box games. DVD cases would deffinitely give them more room and an easier way to browse selection as well.
CompUSA has moved their game section 3 times to give it more space and each time they have filled up every shelf to the point where if you move a box you are likely to knock another on the floor.
Bestbuy has a massive warehouse, they usually don't have a space problem with PC games, but they deffinitely don't have a lot of extra room. I would rather see the PC game section as easy to navigate as the ps2/xbox sections are.
Some of you seem to be insinuating that if these standard boxes turn into DVD cases then game makers won't even be able to make the game they want because people won't be able to understand it. That sounds pretty silly to me. I can think of 10 different ways to get a bible sized manual to consumers who really need one. Perhaps with all the shelf space they save on DVD cases they could have a section called "bible sized manuals". Charge 5 dollars for a manual, I think that would be fair.
"I just think it sucks future games might only be able to hold 1 or 2 discs worth of that great art...."
I don't see how 1-2 4.7 GB DVDs would not suffice on artwork. Perhaps moving to DVD cases would help accelerate the use of actual DVD software as well. Wouldn't that be sweet.
Charge 5 dollars for a manual, I think that would be fair.
Better yet, why not charge $5 LESS if you get the PDF Manual version! If games were $50 for a big box w/printed manual and $40 for the DVD case w/PDF, do you think the whiners would quit crying?
Me neither.
A lot of my Adobe SW has really useful HTML Help files that open in a browser when you hit F1. Instead of pulling the 400 page manual off the shelf (yeah, you get big BOOKS when you actually BUY Adobe SW, but you still need to buy other books to get useful info:|), I can fire up Help and use the index search to find what I need in 15 seconds and then jump to related topics without flipping pages.
Better yet, why not charge $5 LESS if you get the PDF Manual version! If games were $50 for a big box w/printed manual and $40 for the DVD case w/PDF, do you think the whiners would quit crying?
Me neither.
A lot of my Adobe SW has really useful HTML Help files that open in a browser when you hit F1. Instead of pulling the 400 page manual off the shelf (yeah, you get big BOOKS when you actually BUY Adobe SW, but you still need to buy other books to get useful info:|), I can fire up Help and use the index search to find what I need in 15 seconds and then jump to related topics without flipping pages.
apoppin
Lifer
<< What's with the new retail PC game packaging? >>
Doesn't bother me in the slightest . . . it's called progress. I imagine if a game needs to be "non-standard" packaging because of requiring a large manual the publisher will find a way to include it . . .
I might be annoyed if ALL retail software packaging starts to follow this trend. No printed manual with my retail $600 Photoshop 7.0 could prove to be annoying.
<< Charge 5 dollars for a manual, I think that would be fair. >>
No, the manual belongs in the box with the product. Why should I pay extra for it or a strategy guide? I don't do this for any other product I purchase.
<< I don't see how 1-2 4.7 GB DVDs would not suffice on artwork >>
No games ship on DVD, only CD. I own games that came on 5-6 CDs (Baldur's Gate, Wing Commander IV, etc.). If retailers forced publishers into the double-width DVD jewel case form factor neither of those games would have been as long or have the same quality.
<< Perhaps moving to DVD cases would help accelerate the use of actual DVD software as well. >>
I hadn't considered that. Let's hope so! Although if it happened it would be coincidental, not "by design" as MS would say.
<< Doesn't bother me in the slightest >>
That's because you play games like Serious Sam, Apoppin. I'm talking about the Big Boy games.
<< No games ship on DVD, only CD. I own games that came on 5-6 CDs (Baldur's Gate, Wing Commander IV, etc.). If retailers forced publishers into the double-width DVD jewel case form factor neither of those games would have been as long or have the same quality. >>
It's already been posted in this thread that Baldur's Gate was available on DVD. I own Riven on DVD, replacing 5 CDs with one jewel case. Myst: Exile is available in a SINGLE-WIDTH DVD case and that's FOUR CDs.
Wing Commander IV (DVD) came bundled with the Creative Encore PC-DVD kit and Silent Steel (DVD) came with the Toshiba/Cinemaster DVD-ROM kit.
So, at least two of the games you stated were unavailable on DVD ARE available and with one paragraph, you've removed yourself as a meaningful contributor to this thread. Thanks for playing. G'bye!!!
The NUMBER ONE reason why more games don't come on DVD is this: Not all computers have DVD drives but EVERY computer has a CD-ROM drive. No evil corporate plot, just the facts. Businesses can't afford to risk shutting out customers.
apoppin
Lifer
<< That's because you play games like Serious Sam, Apoppin. I'm talking about the Big Boy games. >>
Please speak for yourself. The only "Big Boy" you seem to be familar with is the Hamburger?
Mem
Lifer
- Apr 23, 2000
- 21,476
- 13
- 81
<< Doesn't bother me in the slightest . . . it's called progress. I imagine if a game needs to be "non-standard" packaging because of requiring a large manual the publisher will find a way to include it . . . >>
I brought Might & Magic 9 few weeks back ( £30 about $45) and yes the box was smaller but I was very surprised to find no real manual(only PDF one on CD),yet in the USA for the same game you guys get a real manual,if they are going to reduce the size and not include a decent manual then they should reduce the cost to the buyer,I don`t mind paying full price for a game but expect to have my moneys worth inside.
I too can get use to the smaller box etc,but they should adjust the price if all they want to give you is a basic CD in a small empty box.It does look like PC games are going the way of console games with big price ,small case with virtually nothing inside.
<< It's already been posted in this thread that Baldur's Gate was available on DVD. >>
Wrong. When this game first came out there was no DVD version. That happened far after the fact.
<< Wing Commander IV (DVD) came bundled with >>
Wrong again. Initially it wasn't available on DVD. It took a long time for the DVD version to appear.
My argument stands: had the CD/DVD box form-factor been required for these games, the developers would not have been able to make the same games. Simply due to a stupid packaging requirement. That's pretty lame. I have the same fear for future games.
As for who makes more meaningful contributions to this thread, I'll let the audience decide. But judging from the responses to your posts vs. mine I'm not gonna lose any sleep tonight.
<< The only "Big Boy" you seem to be familar with is the Hamburger? >>
apoppin there's no arguing with you so I won't even try.
AnitaPeterson
Diamond Member
- Apr 24, 2001
- 5,991
- 492
- 126
What a coincidence!
Look what this newspaper article:
Special to The Christian Science Monitor
Headline: Many ways to reduce packaging waste: A third of household garbage is packaging material, according to a U.S. agency
Byline: Mary Kuhl
Date: Thursday 18 April 2002
The tiny present wrapped inside a slightly larger box, put into a yet-bigger box, and so on, may be a good joke
for a birthday or Christmas -- but the packaging of many household goods is almost as bad.
One-third of garbage is packaging materials, according to the Environmental Protection Agency in
Washington.
And there's not necessarily a good reason for it.
Many companies are simply following convention and haven't looked into better ways to package their
products, says Terry Grist of the EPA.
Overcrowded landfills are not the only problem associated with excessive packaging. Simply manufacturing
the packaging uses energy and creates pollutants, says Grist.
Not only is minimal packaging better for the environment, it also costs less to produce. "Companies can save
a lot of money when they reduce packaging," Grist says.
But to keep excessive packaging from clogging landfills, consumers also need to be alert when they buy
products. Here are a few ways to reduce packaging waste:
- Avoid snacks and other foods wrapped in individual serving sizes. Instead, buy bigger bags of the snacks and
put smaller servings in paper bags.
- Instead of putting a juice box in your child's lunch bag, buy juice concentrate, mix it in a reusable container,
and send a thermos with the lunch.
- Make your own "lunchables." Rather than purchasing the prepackaged version, buy a block of cheese, some
sandwich meat and crackers.
- Buy personal hygiene and home-cleaning products in bulk when possible.
- Buy cereal in bags instead of boxes, which usually contain bags inside.
- Buy loose fruits and vegetables instead of those packaged in Styrofoam trays and shrink-wrap.
- Fix your own fresh-fruit cups instead of buying cut-up fruit in plastic containers.
- Avoid buying products packaged in blister packs (moulded plastic attached to cardboard.) Although
sometimes blister packs serve a hygienic purpose (making sure cosmetics or medicines aren't tampered with,
for instance), they are often unnecessary.
Look what this newspaper article:
Special to The Christian Science Monitor
Headline: Many ways to reduce packaging waste: A third of household garbage is packaging material, according to a U.S. agency
Byline: Mary Kuhl
Date: Thursday 18 April 2002
The tiny present wrapped inside a slightly larger box, put into a yet-bigger box, and so on, may be a good joke
for a birthday or Christmas -- but the packaging of many household goods is almost as bad.
One-third of garbage is packaging materials, according to the Environmental Protection Agency in
Washington.
And there's not necessarily a good reason for it.
Many companies are simply following convention and haven't looked into better ways to package their
products, says Terry Grist of the EPA.
Overcrowded landfills are not the only problem associated with excessive packaging. Simply manufacturing
the packaging uses energy and creates pollutants, says Grist.
Not only is minimal packaging better for the environment, it also costs less to produce. "Companies can save
a lot of money when they reduce packaging," Grist says.
But to keep excessive packaging from clogging landfills, consumers also need to be alert when they buy
products. Here are a few ways to reduce packaging waste:
- Avoid snacks and other foods wrapped in individual serving sizes. Instead, buy bigger bags of the snacks and
put smaller servings in paper bags.
- Instead of putting a juice box in your child's lunch bag, buy juice concentrate, mix it in a reusable container,
and send a thermos with the lunch.
- Make your own "lunchables." Rather than purchasing the prepackaged version, buy a block of cheese, some
sandwich meat and crackers.
- Buy personal hygiene and home-cleaning products in bulk when possible.
- Buy cereal in bags instead of boxes, which usually contain bags inside.
- Buy loose fruits and vegetables instead of those packaged in Styrofoam trays and shrink-wrap.
- Fix your own fresh-fruit cups instead of buying cut-up fruit in plastic containers.
- Avoid buying products packaged in blister packs (moulded plastic attached to cardboard.) Although
sometimes blister packs serve a hygienic purpose (making sure cosmetics or medicines aren't tampered with,
for instance), they are often unnecessary.
BOOM!
Anitia, You make an excellent point. We in the US have a HUGE waste stream. I doubt that reducing the waste stream was the motivation behind the newer small formfactor PC gaming packaging - no doubt is was a cost/shelf space issue - but the end result is a good one. Thank you for reminding me of this salient point!
I only wish reducing waste from "over packaging" was a major motivation here... it should be! Cripes, my daugher gets a doll for Christmas and it is inprisoned under a bondage of many wire twists, tape and plastic. It is a major project just getting the darn thing out of the box. All that goes in the trash!
In Germany, the passed laws in the early 90s requiring manufacturers to take back packaging that a product comes in. I'll bet they think very differently about how they package things with this regulation.
I'm more pleased now that Anita reminded me of this important issue!
Anitia, You make an excellent point. We in the US have a HUGE waste stream. I doubt that reducing the waste stream was the motivation behind the newer small formfactor PC gaming packaging - no doubt is was a cost/shelf space issue - but the end result is a good one. Thank you for reminding me of this salient point!
I only wish reducing waste from "over packaging" was a major motivation here... it should be! Cripes, my daugher gets a doll for Christmas and it is inprisoned under a bondage of many wire twists, tape and plastic. It is a major project just getting the darn thing out of the box. All that goes in the trash!
In Germany, the passed laws in the early 90s requiring manufacturers to take back packaging that a product comes in. I'll bet they think very differently about how they package things with this regulation.
I'm more pleased now that Anita reminded me of this important issue!
i support small boxes, and don't care about manuals really. any info listed in the manual can be found either on the cd or the internet, and is usually outdated anyway.
but i don't like it when cd's come in a dvd box. i have all my games in cd jewel cases in a big stack on my desk, dvd cases are too big to have lying around....keep it in cd jewel cases, but small cardbox boxes.
but i don't like it when cd's come in a dvd box. i have all my games in cd jewel cases in a big stack on my desk, dvd cases are too big to have lying around....keep it in cd jewel cases, but small cardbox boxes.
Well it's been a couple of days since I emailed the Interactive Entertainment Merchants Association but haven't received a response. Goes to show you that these organizations act upon their own part, and don't care about the opinions of others.
AnitaPeterson
Diamond Member
- Apr 24, 2001
- 5,991
- 492
- 126
I'm glad my first post was useful, and would like to add my own opinion, now.
I think huge boxes are a waste. The last game I bought was "Undying", and all it had inside the big cardboard box was the CD, a registration form, a quick guide printed on a folded letter-size piece of paper, and a booklet - not realy a manual, but a story background - about as big in size (not as thick, though) as the New Testament books some churches spread around campuses. I hope most of you'll know what I'm talking about.
Having collected games for many years now - although you can say I'm biased, "doing" primarily FPS! - I found that manuals are useless most of the time. Someone mentioned the ADOBE products, and I found that they have some of the most useless manuals I've ever encountered - and boy, those things are HUGE! So, in any case, big manuals are not necessary better.
I appreciate tight packaging, without it being excessive. A good example would be what's going on at this point in time with CD jewel cases. Instead of the traditional ones, manufacturers have now begun pushing for "ultra-slim" cases, which are useless as far as I'm concerned, because I can't fit any inserts there - and to add insult to injury, they didn't even follow the older CD-single case format, which at least allowed you to have useful information on the spine... Now, I see that DVD cases were made to be equal in height with VHS cases - although they could've just as easily fit them in regular CD cases - but I can live with that.
I don't like big cardboard boxes, though, and as far as I'm concerned, games can come in either CD or DVD cases, and that is enough - you can still fit manuals quite nicely in there, thank you very much. More does necessarily mean beter, and I cringe when I think about the amount of wasted paper rotting somewhere at the outskirts of the city. I remember a joke (?) saying that the amount of paper consumed in communist and capitalist countries was similar - in the communist countries every form had six copies, and you were supposed to make huge reports on anyone and everything, while in capitalism, they use the same amount on wrapping stuff and junk mail.
Next time you want big boxes, take a trip to the nearest landfill and see for yourself what excessive packaging means. Even if you think it doesn't affect your whim ("I want big, empty boxes to brag about"), it will affect your life indirectly, in terms of pollution and urban encroachment (has anyone calculated the surface of landfills for the six largest American cities?)
I think huge boxes are a waste. The last game I bought was "Undying", and all it had inside the big cardboard box was the CD, a registration form, a quick guide printed on a folded letter-size piece of paper, and a booklet - not realy a manual, but a story background - about as big in size (not as thick, though) as the New Testament books some churches spread around campuses. I hope most of you'll know what I'm talking about.
Having collected games for many years now - although you can say I'm biased, "doing" primarily FPS! - I found that manuals are useless most of the time. Someone mentioned the ADOBE products, and I found that they have some of the most useless manuals I've ever encountered - and boy, those things are HUGE! So, in any case, big manuals are not necessary better.
I appreciate tight packaging, without it being excessive. A good example would be what's going on at this point in time with CD jewel cases. Instead of the traditional ones, manufacturers have now begun pushing for "ultra-slim" cases, which are useless as far as I'm concerned, because I can't fit any inserts there - and to add insult to injury, they didn't even follow the older CD-single case format, which at least allowed you to have useful information on the spine... Now, I see that DVD cases were made to be equal in height with VHS cases - although they could've just as easily fit them in regular CD cases - but I can live with that.
I don't like big cardboard boxes, though, and as far as I'm concerned, games can come in either CD or DVD cases, and that is enough - you can still fit manuals quite nicely in there, thank you very much. More does necessarily mean beter, and I cringe when I think about the amount of wasted paper rotting somewhere at the outskirts of the city. I remember a joke (?) saying that the amount of paper consumed in communist and capitalist countries was similar - in the communist countries every form had six copies, and you were supposed to make huge reports on anyone and everything, while in capitalism, they use the same amount on wrapping stuff and junk mail.
Next time you want big boxes, take a trip to the nearest landfill and see for yourself what excessive packaging means. Even if you think it doesn't affect your whim ("I want big, empty boxes to brag about"), it will affect your life indirectly, in terms of pollution and urban encroachment (has anyone calculated the surface of landfills for the six largest American cities?)
I'm totally for the smaller boxes. They're still plenty big enough to sport a ~50 page manual and hold a LOT of discs in paper sleeves (I hate jewel cases anyways). It saves on paper, and it saves the game companies money. I always though that computer games came in too big of boxes anyways (console games come in tiny little packaging and do fine).
AnitaPeterson, no one here wants big boxes for the sake of big boxes. I want them when needed to properly support the game. For FPS games, sure, stick them in jewel cases. I can figure out the left mouse button shoots, the right one jumps without instructions.
As for PC game boxes creating a huge waste problem, I have to laugh. Given the number of games sold and tossed out vs., say oversized pizza boxes, I'm sure the Freshetas/Digornos/Wolfgang Pucks/California Pizza Kitchens of the world produce more waste in one year than game publishers ever will. Good sentiment, though.
As for PC game boxes creating a huge waste problem, I have to laugh. Given the number of games sold and tossed out vs., say oversized pizza boxes, I'm sure the Freshetas/Digornos/Wolfgang Pucks/California Pizza Kitchens of the world produce more waste in one year than game publishers ever will. Good sentiment, though.
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 21K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
-
Facebook
Twitter